Jump to content


Decision making in WoT


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

LordMuffin #1 Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:59 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 48529 battles
  • 11,268
  • [-GLO-] -GLO-
  • Member since:
    06-21-2011

From time to time, players come her and ask, how to get good at WoT. Responses vary from: Post a replay and I/we can tell you what you did good and bad, improve situational awareness, shoot premium ammo (a stupid one) etc.

A crucial part of how to get better at WoT is down to your decision making though, which is what gets pointed out in replays shown, and your situational awareness helps you improve (easier to make good decisions if you know what is going on around you). So I had a thought, after a decent battle where I think I actually made a few good decisions that I would share them, in hope that some/any of you might find this interesting and useful to your own play.

The replay where I made 3 good decisions that I want to highlight (don't look at the numbers, they are more or less meaningless, it is the decisions I made in the latter part of the game that is interesting).

 

Where there other decisions I could have made in the game that would have ended the game in the same way? Probably. An example is going for the O-Ni and AMX M4 45 after the IS-3 kill when the AT-15 still had a bit of HP left (this would be a high risk, high reward play). But the decisions I make are not always correct, and often many decisions can lead to the same outcome (win).

 

1: I am in a soon to be duel with the enemy Type 59 in my Strv S1, (he is going towards me and will soon start attacking me), when team mate spots an enemy Comet. My decision here is to kill the Comet, that I had a shot on, instead of shooting the Type 59 that had almost came all the way to my tank.

Why?

1: If I could kill that Comet, my team mate in the light tank could survive for a longer time and maybe do more good stuff for his team.

2: I knew that I could out dpm the Type 59 and win even if he got the first shot. So it was no real danger for my tank to do it.

3: The latter parts of the game would be much easier to handle with one less enemy tank.

The only thing it required was some situational awareness.

 

2: A little while later, I do not shoot the enemy Ikv 90 B.

Why?

1: If I was to shoot him, I would need roughly 4 seconds for the sieging things.

like 2 seconds for turning the tank to point in the right way. totaling at least 6 seconds.

My thinking is that since I ran away from the lost 'heavy' flank, I didn't have time for this, due to enemy heavies chasing and maybe catching up with me before I could get around the next hill. I deemed it to dangerous to take that shot.

Could I have taken that shot and got away, in retrospect, I think so.

But I valued the safety retreat way higher then an extra shot.

 

3: Around the kill shot on the Ikv 90 B. I was planning to set myself up in the bush I went into.

Why?

1: The bush isn't obvious, close in proximity to where I was,

2: The bush is covered from the expected position of enemy heavy tanks.

3: I know the Ikv 90B will go and look for me and peek over, and then I thought I had the opportunity to kill him off when he peeked (if he did it carelessly). Which he did, but before I had setup my trap.

For how long would I have stayed there? At most 30 seconds.

 

The only other interesting part is my initial position of my TD.

 

What could the enemy have done better in the end situation?

Ikv 90B.

He should have kept me spotted by peeking over, to keep tabs of my whereabouts, so I would not be able to easily run away. He let me slip away, which had a high cost. He had the high ground (ridge line) and I couldn't chase him away from  it due to enemy heavies being somewhere behind him. Which would have forced me to take a shot or 2 from him to get away, or me to stay there awaiting my death as his team mates approached me.

If you are in situations like this, never let a fast enemy tank slip away unnoticed like this.

T28 HTC.

He shouldn't have suicided. His move was extremely predictable, and thus he was a very easy kill to setup. This is something you just have to know how to setup, and I wouldn't say that this was neither a hard to find or difficult to pull off decision.

O-Ni and AMX M4 45.

They stayed together, which was good. AMX covered 1 area was also fine. but in that situation against a tank like mine, or a light tank or a medium tank. They will have a very very very hard time to win. When I killed the T28 HTC, the game was more or less lost for their team.

They can't chase, and the only way for them to force me close is to cap, which they did. Where I would peek from is more or less impossible for them to know. But where I decided to do it is my favourite position (that whole ridge) together with the top-line of the map.

They could probably have camped somewhere aiming for a draw, but then I could cap and outspot them and force them to me instead. So I don't think these 2 players had much of a choice.

 

And no, I don't think the rest of the game is showing any fantastic stuff really.

And yes, I always shoot premium ammo at Japanese heavy tanks (if I remember it).



IncandescentGerbil #2 Posted 03 April 2018 - 04:30 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 35775 battles
  • 1,453
  • Member since:
    11-24-2015
Just buy a 268v4 and do whatever the hell you want.

LordMuffin #3 Posted 03 April 2018 - 04:33 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 48529 battles
  • 11,268
  • [-GLO-] -GLO-
  • Member since:
    06-21-2011
Another tip.

If you ever want to go hill on Malinovka.
You ALWAYS GO TO THE WINDMILL WITHOUT EVER STOPPING ON YOUR WAY THERE FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.

m1x_angelico #4 Posted 03 April 2018 - 08:15 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 23131 battles
  • 875
  • [-VETO] -VETO
  • Member since:
    01-04-2015
Kudos for the effort. Don't know how many people will read and implement it, but those who will, will learn.

signal11th #5 Posted 04 April 2018 - 08:31 AM

    Major General

  • Player
  • 38201 battles
  • 5,868
  • [S3AL] S3AL
  • Member since:
    07-14-2011

View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

Another tip.

If you ever want to go hill on Malinovka.
You ALWAYS GO TO THE WINDMILL WITHOUT EVER STOPPING ON YOUR WAY THERE FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.

 

Good player trade secrets dude stop handing them away like sweets..... Think that one is under the paragraph heading "Common Sense" think not going to the beach in overlord is there as well.

Frostilicus #6 Posted 04 April 2018 - 08:36 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Clan Diplomat
  • 22476 battles
  • 3,029
  • [-ZNO-] -ZNO-
  • Member since:
    07-12-2011
Strange that everyone knows going to the beach on Overlord is fail, but there's always 2 or 3 that do it regardless :)

LordMuffin #7 Posted 04 April 2018 - 10:25 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 48529 battles
  • 11,268
  • [-GLO-] -GLO-
  • Member since:
    06-21-2011

View PostFrostilicus, on 04 April 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

Strange that everyone knows going to the beach on Overlord is fail, but there's always 2 or 3 that do it regardless :)

I blame the 'must cover all flanks' mentality which is rather stupid.

 

View Postsignal11th, on 04 April 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

 

Good player trade secrets dude stop handing them away like sweets..... Think that one is under the paragraph heading "Common Sense" think not going to the beach in overlord is there as well.

The same problem arises here as with most advices given.

 

Those that need to hear it doesn't hear/read the advice, while those that already know both hear and read the advice...


 

Scorilo #8 Posted 04 April 2018 - 10:46 AM

    Corporal

  • Player
  • 5070 battles
  • 157
  • Member since:
    11-02-2011

View PostLordMuffin, on 04 April 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

I blame the 'must cover all flanks' mentality which is rather stupid.

 

As a tactical point of view, its not stupid. This way you dont let the enemy advance, or you delay them till you get backup.

However the problem is the players not repositioning after you look at the map (which a lot of players think its just a mini wallpaper in the corner).

On Malinovka a lot of players prefer to stop at the beginning and turkey shoot the scout that runs in the middle.

 


Edited by Scorilo, 04 April 2018 - 10:49 AM.


Evilier_than_Skeletor #9 Posted 04 April 2018 - 10:53 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 18282 battles
  • 540
  • [TSOP] TSOP
  • Member since:
    02-05-2016
Good read, thank you. Anything you'd like to share on improving situational awareness?

LordMuffin #10 Posted 04 April 2018 - 10:58 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 48529 battles
  • 11,268
  • [-GLO-] -GLO-
  • Member since:
    06-21-2011

View PostScorilo, on 04 April 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

 

As a tactical point of view, its not stupid. This way you dont let the enemy advance, or you delay them till you get backup.

However the problem is the players not repositioning after you look at the map (which a lot of players think its just a mini wallpaper in the corner).

On Malinovka a lot of players prefer to stop at the beginning and turkey shoot the scout that runs in the middle.

 

It is stupid, on for example Overlord, there is no reason to cover beach.

On Cliff there is no reason to cover 1-2 line, especially not after the remake that added 2 super strong camping positions on high ground for both teams.

 

The Malinovka problem is that players don't realise the importance of a good position.

Which is why spotting enemies going hill could very well be a bad idea, since it could make your team mates going hill stop and shoot before they get to hill, and thus leave the good position to the enemy team. 

 

View PostEvilier_than_Skeletor, on 04 April 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

Good read, thank you. Anything you'd like to share on improving situational awareness?

Not really, I think experience is important.

Also, staying calm, being able to keep multiple thoughts in your head at the same time are of importance.

 

My WOT makes a sound everytime an enemy is spotted, which alerts me to check for him. This helps.

 

Always keep 1 eye on the minimap, 

 

Another thought on situational awareness.

Try to keep enemies at only 1 angle from you. This way, you can reduce what you have to look at and thus, you don't have to be that aware of your surroundings.

 

If we take the replay, in my initial position, I know enemies can only approach from 1 small angle, which is why I pick it. It reduce what I have to be aware off in my immediate surroundings. Only a check on the minimap every now and then is needed.

Then we lost top of map, I shift my immediate focus to that side, still knowing my heavy side is alive and well. So enemies can only engage from a new small angle. I don't have to be aware of surroundings from any other area then that one. And a glimpse on the minimap shows how the rest are doing.

 

When I kill HTC, same thing.

I know he will come for me, a nd I know heavies are still to far away to be a threat, so I position myself so I can have him in a slight angle in front with the rest covered (even though heavies are to far away).

 

And in the end, I know they are capping. I know they are not on the ridge I went to (spotted from the hill a bit earlier).

So I can go and find them in cap. 1 tank in cap, the other 1 probably close by.

I have checked some areas, so I know the AMX is not on the left hill, and he would not be able to spot me from there. Didn't spot him in the area to the right, so I should be safe from there. Meaning,  I can go to the bush and be relatively certain that both enemies would be somewhere in front of me, maybe you left or right, but certainly not behind. This makes it easier to be aware, since I only have to be aware of a small area in front of me.

 

Tldr: I think you get better situational awareness by positioning yourself such that you only have to be aware of a small area in front off you. And then you use minimap for knowing what happens on other parts of the map.


 

TungstenHitman #11 Posted 04 April 2018 - 11:16 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 24083 battles
  • 4,386
  • Member since:
    08-28-2016

View Postm1x_angelico, on 03 April 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

Kudos for the effort. Don't know how many people will read and implement it, but those who will, will learn.

 

That's because every battle is different, unlimited variables as the other 29 strangers would suggest it has and ultimately how a lot of things in the battle go is out of our control and can fall kindly or not so much with the correct way being ultimately defined by the result and personal input. You know, you can't just say "the Type 59 is no threat because it can be out traded" when in truth the Type 59 used by a competent player will beat an STRV in close quarters same as just about any tank with average mobility, he can permatrack and HE kill the STRV in frighteningly quick time but was a foolish player, is different.

 

Experience across many battles goes a long way to deciding what we do, what gets targeted, where to go, when to stay, when to go, when to shoot, when not to shoot but it's not really something that can be summed up in one battle replay and also is very hard to just teach imo. 



vasilinhorulezz #12 Posted 04 April 2018 - 11:16 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 22813 battles
  • 1,109
  • Member since:
    09-26-2014

View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

Another tip.

If you ever want to go hill on Malinovka.
You ALWAYS GO TO THE WINDMILL WITHOUT EVER STOPPING ON YOUR WAY THERE FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.

 

Thank you!!!

I'm tired of explaining this every [edited] game, and people still camp the base of the hill in heavies to snipe the lights on the field,

while the enemy team gets up the hill to farm them when they finally decide to climb up.


Edited by vasilinhorulezz, 04 April 2018 - 11:17 AM.


TungstenHitman #13 Posted 04 April 2018 - 11:23 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 24083 battles
  • 4,386
  • Member since:
    08-28-2016

I mean, I can bore the pants off you guys and patronize new players by uploading replays of battles where what I tried and experience I used worked well... but this isn't every battle lol. It's a tough game and as much as experience counts for a lot and as much as there is fundamental basics that can be applied to various tanks and various classes of tanks etc.... for the battles I did really well in, things also had to fall nicely for me. The places I went to through experience and what I did through experience throughout the battle and acted and reacted to situations all contributed yes, BUT, things also would have just played out nicely like the timing of the enemy tanks arrivals and what my teammates did even when they acted as a distraction or the enemy decided to target them and not me... it's just too variable to say "look at this replay and learn a few things" I can show you replays where I did exactly the same sensible stuff as I would have done for a Radleys or a Pools only this time I got killed early with very little at all, it's just too variable a topic honestly.

 

Edit- nice sentiments though and great battle


Edited by TungstenHitman, 04 April 2018 - 11:26 AM.


CmdRatScabies #14 Posted 04 April 2018 - 11:57 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 37626 battles
  • 4,506
  • [-MM] -MM
  • Member since:
    10-12-2015

View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

Another tip.

If you ever want to go hill on Malinovka.
You ALWAYS GO TO THE WINDMILL WITHOUT EVER STOPPING ON YOUR WAY THERE FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.

 

Ah that special feeling when you get to the Windmill and notice you team mates all stopped to shoot a light tank that someone spotted in the field below.  :)

LordMuffin #15 Posted 04 April 2018 - 12:08 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 48529 battles
  • 11,268
  • [-GLO-] -GLO-
  • Member since:
    06-21-2011

View PostTungstenHitman, on 04 April 2018 - 11:23 AM, said:

I mean, I can bore the pants off you guys and patronize new players by uploading replays of battles where what I tried and experience I used worked well... but this isn't every battle lol. It's a tough game and as much as experience counts for a lot and as much as there is fundamental basics that can be applied to various tanks and various classes of tanks etc.... for the battles I did really well in, things also had to fall nicely for me. The places I went to through experience and what I did through experience throughout the battle and acted and reacted to situations all contributed yes, BUT, things also would have just played out nicely like the timing of the enemy tanks arrivals and what my teammates did even when they acted as a distraction or the enemy decided to target them and not me... it's just too variable to say "look at this replay and learn a few things" I can show you replays where I did exactly the same sensible stuff as I would have done for a Radleys or a Pools only this time I got killed early with very little at all, it's just too variable a topic honestly.

 

Edit- nice sentiments though and great battle

 

For most players in WOT, their good games come from being lucky so their decisions happened to be good by chance (which is how bad to average players get ace-tankers) a few times in a row. These players have little to no clue about what even made the decisions good, or why they worked. They essentially got their ace tankers randomly.

 

For a good player, you don't randomly do the correct thing a few times in a row. Good players KNOW what a good decision is based on the current situation.

 

Many players think that if X work 1 game, it will always work, which is wrong.

Decisions have a probability into them, some decisions have a low probability of working, other a higher one.

Going for the low probability of working decision is wrong in EVERY situation, even if it works one.

 

The Jingle saying 'if it stupid and it works, it ain't stupid' is a very very stupid and incorrect assessment. It is still stupid, and it still was a bad decision.

 

If we take my kill of the T28 HTC. What do I know of him?

1: He has been camping in that corner for a very long time, in a tank not suitable for it.

2: He hasn't shown himself much at all and have been completely passive for the entire battle in a tank that should front line.

3: He went straight to where I was last spotted, and have done so for a while.

 

Thus we can deduce the player is rather bad, and that he will probably go to where I was last spotted no matter where that is.

 

Around this information, I form a plan and execute it (and him) with ease.

 

If you make the sensible decision you NEVER EVER get killed early (unless arty 1-shots you due to being spotted by a yolo scout).

 

View PostTungstenHitman, on 04 April 2018 - 11:16 AM, said:

 

That's because every battle is different, unlimited variables as the other 29 strangers would suggest it has and ultimately how a lot of things in the battle go is out of our control and can fall kindly or not so much with the correct way being ultimately defined by the result and personal input. You know, you can't just say "the Type 59 is no threat because it can be out traded" when in truth the Type 59 used by a competent player will beat an STRV in close quarters same as just about any tank with average mobility, he can permatrack and HE kill the STRV in frighteningly quick time but was a foolish player, is different.

 

Experience across many battles goes a long way to deciding what we do, what gets targeted, where to go, when to stay, when to go, when to shoot, when not to shoot but it's not really something that can be summed up in one battle replay and also is very hard to just teach imo. 

I would most probably beat any competent Type 59 in that situation (the one he was in before he engaged me). I had high ground, I would out trade and dpm him, and I had a cover tank behind me that could shoot him if he went for me (around me).

I would just have to peek and shoot and wait for reload. And then track him if necessary. 

 

He should not have gone to that position at all, that was his mistake. He should have stayed at ridge line in the back.

 

But what do we know about the Type 59. He is at the ridge, doesnt get any shots of, while I shoot some of his team mates. He goes towards me in a straight line.

Expected outcome: He will rush me head on.

I prepare for that scenario.

An good player in the Type 59 would not have played that situation in that way.


 

Edited by Daxeno, 04 April 2018 - 01:37 PM.


TungstenHitman #16 Posted 04 April 2018 - 12:45 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 24083 battles
  • 4,386
  • Member since:
    08-28-2016

View PostLordMuffin, on 04 April 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

 

For most players in WOT, their good games come from being lucky so their decisions happened to be good by chance (which is how bad to average players get ace-tankers) a few times in a row. These players have little to no clue about what even made the decisions good, or why they worked. They essentially got their ace tankers randomly.

 

Yes

 

For a good player, you don't randomly do the correct thing a few times in a row. Good players KNOW what a good decision is based on the current situation.

 

Yes

 

Many players think that if X work 1 game, it will always work, which is wrong.

Decisions have a probability into them, some decisions have a low probability of working, other a higher one.

 

Yes

 

Going for the low probability of working decision is wrong in EVERY situation, even if it works one.

 

Guilty as charged, feels good when it works. Serotonin is a free feel good drug and I aim to get high for free as often as possible

 

The Jingle saying 'if it stupid and it works, it ain't stupid' is a very very stupid and incorrect assessment. It is still stupid, and it still was a bad decision.

 

Yes, a very Forest Gump analysis for winning while doing the wrong thing and knowing nothing about any of it lol. Jingle is the old guy with the tank reviews yes? Well he is old so nuff said but I did catch an apology video of his on... I think it was WOTLabs? not sure where I saw it but anyway he basically apologized for recommending to everyone that they should pick up a TOGll and that it was a great tank(great maybe not the word, maybe he said brilliant, excellent? who cares) anyway he was apologizing for promoting the TOGll and said he's actually just a massive fan of this tank in real life, is his favorite tank and he just loves seeing them on the battlefield so that was why he encouraged players to pick one up through untrue means on it's ability, he admitted it wasn't a very good tank. In other words, he has a bit of a history of maybe getting a bit wayward in what he says. Nice guy though, I think... based on one vid? ya we'll go with nice guy. He loves TOGll and wanted players to buy it, forgiven.

 

If we take my kill of the T28 HTC. What do I know of him?

1: He has been camping in that corner for a very long time, in a tank not suitable for it.

2: He hasn't shown himself much at all and have been completely passive for the entire battle in a tank that should front line.

3: He went straight to where I was last spotted, and have done so for a while.

 

Thus we can deduce the player is rather bad, and that he will probably go to where I was last spotted no matter where that is.

 

But but but but... but... he has a HTC!! He done dem missions! He MUST be good!!

 

Around this information, I form a plan and execute it (and him) with ease.

 

If you make the sensible decision you NEVER EVER get killed early (unless arty 1-shots you due to being spotted by a yolo scout).

 

Well... nah sometimes it just goes arse shaped through really low percentage stuff like a couple of yoloing auto loaders popping up on your side where at that moment of the battle they have no business being and are going to die yet clip you first while your teammates droll and watch "bawwwww someone should get those guys" or going to iconic TD or LT bush locations and catching a bomb in the chops, can happen, sensibility be damned lol. I mean, you could say going to pretty obvious places for a TD is not being sensible but there's not always that many options offering cover, that level of potential area cover for targeting and 19 times out of 20, is still amazingly ignored during battles (Even though I blind shot the hell out of these places when I played scumbag clicker lol, you even know you hit something because there is simply no sound, then next shot, a dead tank :teethhappy::arta::hiding:)

 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #17 Posted 04 April 2018 - 12:55 PM

    Major

  • Player
  • 30518 battles
  • 2,546
  • Member since:
    06-13-2015
Given some of the decision making I see in game I fear for the safety of these individuals and any innocent bystanders IRL.

Kozzy #18 Posted 04 April 2018 - 12:59 PM

    Major

  • Player
  • 38855 battles
  • 2,705
  • [RINSE] RINSE
  • Member since:
    06-29-2011

View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

Lots of helpful advice for non-tinfoil wearing nabsacks...

 

"Doesn't matter how you play, bro.  Game is rigged!!!!11oneeleven."

 

Joking aside, I think there could be an in game learning resource where people put up guides or tips on the forums and the ones that get upvoted could go into the game client.

 

Could be split into tank/map specific or guides on crew XP, line grinding etc.  This game needs to do more to help people play the game and understand the various metas.



ArrNgee #19 Posted 04 April 2018 - 01:14 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 28286 battles
  • 851
  • [-322-] -322-
  • Member since:
    04-21-2011
There are some very basic “rules” to follow if you want to have an impact and win:
- Kill tanks on low HP, this is the most important. Even though you won’t get to use your 750 alpha on the 120hp tank, one less enemy = less enemies to spot and shoot your teammates and you.

- Focus tanks that are already hit. Though you know you won’t kill him with one shot, your teammates might be aiming for him as well, and that one shot you took can be crucial for them to take the final shot and kill it.

- Retreat to a position where you can spot the enemy advancing in good time when being pushed too hard. You’re better for the team staying alive and spotting for the remaining than getting 2 extra shots in on the rushing enemies in a position where you’ll die. You will get to take more than 2 more shots if staying alive till the end game where you can finish them off anyways.

- Don’t overextend if you’re not certain you will win it or you have enough support. Don’t rush down The Valley on Fjords before you’re certain what’s waiting for you down there. Same applies to many other maps.

- Stay alive for the end game, this is often where the good players catch up on kills and damage

NUKLEAR_SLUG #20 Posted 04 April 2018 - 01:23 PM

    Major

  • Player
  • 30518 battles
  • 2,546
  • Member since:
    06-13-2015

View PostArrNgee, on 04 April 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

- Kill tanks on low HP, this is the most important. Even though you won’t get to use your 750 alpha on the 120hp tank, one less enemy = less enemies to spot and shoot your teammates and you.

 

Not always. Killing a tank is always useful, but if I've got friends in the area that can pick up the low HP kill then I'll not waste a 750 shell on them, I'd rather put it into another target and reduce them to low HP for someone to pick up the kill on.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users