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Decision making in WoT


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Excavatus #21 Posted 04 April 2018 - 01:32 PM

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Someone said somewhere.. about the beach in the overlord..

 

I am willing to pay money to WG for cutting access to the beach on that map..

How can people cannot understand going to beach is totally USELESS.. leaving your team with less tanks.. and being an utter muppet instead of a team player..

 

what happens If you give the enemy the beach?

just 1 or 2 tanks above the cliffes next to ramps are enough to hold their advance..

because they have to go into a bottle neck.. where there is no cover.. and you will have the high ground..

they will be sitting ducks..

 

but people still goes there.. in numbers... omg..



Hamsterkicker #22 Posted 04 April 2018 - 01:37 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

Another tip.

If you ever want to go hill on Malinovka.
You ALWAYS GO TO THE WINDMILL WITHOUT EVER STOPPING ON YOUR WAY THERE FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.

 

That was the exact same advice I wrote in teamchat when spawning on malinovka encounter with three arties on both sides... Luckely the team followed up and we won 15-4...

SirDixie #23 Posted 04 April 2018 - 02:00 PM

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View PostExcavatus, on 04 April 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

Someone said somewhere.. about the beach in the overlord..

 

I am willing to pay money to WG for cutting access to the beach on that map..

How can people cannot understand going to beach is totally USELESS.. leaving your team with less tanks.. and being an utter muppet instead of a team player..

 

what happens If you give the enemy the beach?

just 1 or 2 tanks above the cliffes next to ramps are enough to hold their advance..

because they have to go into a bottle neck.. where there is no cover.. and you will have the high ground..

they will be sitting ducks..

 

but people still goes there.. in numbers... omg..

 

Yeah, but they had that one game in 2016 where they got Hifh Calibre from shooting the bad players from the other team who went to beach. It doesn't matter that the fields were lost because they did loads of damage so it must be everyone else's fault.

LordMuffin #24 Posted 04 April 2018 - 03:17 PM

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View PostSirDixie, on 04 April 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

 

Yeah, but they had that one game in 2016 where they got Hifh Calibre from shooting the bad players from the other team who went to beach. It doesn't matter that the fields were lost because they did loads of damage so it must be everyone else's fault.

I actually had a team mate in a TOG making this exact claim.

 

He went beach, did good damage, and claimed he did his part... 



Easy to follow tip on Overlord.

The further away from the beach you are, the better it is for your team.
 

Jumping_TurtIe #25 Posted 04 April 2018 - 03:55 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 04 April 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

I blame the 'must cover all flanks' mentality which is rather stupid.

 

 

I once read 'But WW2 was won from the beach' .....

Warzey #26 Posted 04 April 2018 - 04:30 PM

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View PostExcavatus, on 04 April 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

Someone said somewhere.. about the beach in the overlord..

 

I am willing to pay money to WG for cutting access to the beach on that map..

How can people cannot understand going to beach is totally USELESS.. leaving your team with less tanks.. and being an utter muppet instead of a team player..

 

what happens If you give the enemy the beach?

just 1 or 2 tanks above the cliffes next to ramps are enough to hold their advance..

because they have to go into a bottle neck.. where there is no cover.. and you will have the high ground..

they will be sitting ducks..

 

but people still goes there.. in numbers... omg..

 

Just try to look at the beach from "bad" players point of view. It is a spot on the map where the enemies will only be in front of him (without pesky long range invisible tanks), there are hull down spots, there's almost no chance to get flanked and on top of that it's fairly arty safe. If we forget about bigger picture for a moment, the beach is actually a very good spot for a heavy tank. 

 



fwhaatpiraat #27 Posted 04 April 2018 - 04:48 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

From time to time, players come her and ask, how to get good at WoT. Responses vary from: Post a replay and I/we can tell you what you did good and bad, improve situational awareness, shoot premium ammo (a stupid one) etc.

A crucial part of how to get better at WoT is down to your decision making though, which is what gets pointed out in replays shown, and your situational awareness helps you improve (easier to make good decisions if you know what is going on around you). So I had a thought, after a decent battle where I think I actually made a few good decisions that I would share them, in hope that some/any of you might find this interesting and useful to your own play.

The replay where I made 3 good decisions that I want to highlight (don't look at the numbers, they are more or less meaningless, it is the decisions I made in the latter part of the game that is interesting).

 

Where there other decisions I could have made in the game that would have ended the game in the same way? Probably. An example is going for the O-Ni and AMX M4 45 after the IS-3 kill when the AT-15 still had a bit of HP left (this would be a high risk, high reward play). But the decisions I make are not always correct, and often many decisions can lead to the same outcome (win).

 

1: I am in a soon to be duel with the enemy Type 59 in my Strv S1, (he is going towards me and will soon start attacking me), when team mate spots an enemy Comet. My decision here is to kill the Comet, that I had a shot on, instead of shooting the Type 59 that had almost came all the way to my tank.

Why?

1: If I could kill that Comet, my team mate in the light tank could survive for a longer time and maybe do more good stuff for his team.

2: I knew that I could out dpm the Type 59 and win even if he got the first shot. So it was no real danger for my tank to do it.

3: The latter parts of the game would be much easier to handle with one less enemy tank.

The only thing it required was some situational awareness.

Interesting moment indeed. Good awareness to spot the Comet on low health. The way the type59 played was lucky for you. He should have flanked you and shot you so you would be detracked, or maybe he should not have engaged at all. His low dpm wasn't a big threat for you, so was his armor. One extra tank in the end game can be a really big difference indeed.

 

2: A little while later, I do not shoot the enemy Ikv 90 B.

Why?

1: If I was to shoot him, I would need roughly 4 seconds for the sieging things.

like 2 seconds for turning the tank to point in the right way. totaling at least 6 seconds.

My thinking is that since I ran away from the lost 'heavy' flank, I didn't have time for this, due to enemy heavies chasing and maybe catching up with me before I could get around the next hill. I deemed it to dangerous to take that shot.

Could I have taken that shot and got away, in retrospect, I think so.

But I valued the safety retreat way higher then an extra shot.

Even before this moment you decided to go back. A lot of players never have to urge to go back and get a distance to enemies. They would do a few more shots over the ridge and then die. Especially in this case it worked out because of they had slow heavies without view range or camo.

 

3: Around the kill shot on the Ikv 90 B. I was planning to set myself up in the bush I went into.

Why?

1: The bush isn't obvious, close in proximity to where I was,

2: The bush is covered from the expected position of enemy heavy tanks.

3: I know the Ikv 90B will go and look for me and peek over, and then I thought I had the opportunity to kill him off when he peeked (if he did it carelessly). Which he did, but before I had setup my trap.

For how long would I have stayed there? At most 30 seconds.

 

 

The only other interesting part is my initial position of my TD.

Indeed, interesting position, will try that one as well

 

 

What could the enemy have done better in the end situation?

Ikv 90B.

He should have kept me spotted by peeking over, to keep tabs of my whereabouts, so I would not be able to easily run away. He let me slip away, which had a high cost. He had the high ground (ridge line) and I couldn't chase him away from  it due to enemy heavies being somewhere behind him. Which would have forced me to take a shot or 2 from him to get away, or me to stay there awaiting my death as his team mates approached me.

If you are in situations like this, never let a fast enemy tank slip away unnoticed like this.

Indeed, although it wasn't that easy for him I suppose, since his tank is paper. But this is always really important indeed.

T28 HTC.

He shouldn't have suicided. His move was extremely predictable, and thus he was a very easy kill to setup. This is something you just have to know how to setup, and I wouldn't say that this was neither a hard to find or difficult to pull off decision.

O-Ni and AMX M4 45.

They stayed together, which was good. AMX covered 1 area was also fine. but in that situation against a tank like mine, or a light tank or a medium tank. They will have a very very very hard time to win. When I killed the T28 HTC, the game was more or less lost for their team. Agree.

They can't chase, and the only way for them to force me close is to cap, which they did. Where I would peek from is more or less impossible for them to know. But where I decided to do it is my favourite position (that whole ridge) together with the top-line of the map.

They could probably have camped somewhere aiming for a draw, but then I could cap and outspot them and force them to me instead. So I don't think these 2 players had much of a choice. Nice use of the ridge line indeed. Amx should have capped or camped in the north, especially since he has no clue what your position was. He was one-shottable so driving over ridge lines is extremely dangerous, bringing his team one step closer to a loss.

 

 

And no, I don't think the rest of the game is showing any fantastic stuff really.

And yes, I always shoot premium ammo at Japanese heavy tanks (if I remember it).

 

Cool replay and topic imo :) Even if you 'only' did 5k dmg and 5 kills, it would still be an interesting game because the decision making is what made you carry the game and not the numbers of dmg and kills.

 

Ofcourse you had your lucky moments: bad play of type 59, teammate shooting the type, IS-3 that wasn't abled to shoot/kill you when you ran away (did you know you would become unspotted or was it being semi-lucky him not having plenty of view range?), suiciding t28htc, etc. But luck isn't what made you have this nice game, it's the knowledge of the mechanics of view range and camo, knowledge of the map and making use of habits/patterns (running away from the heavies, making use of the ridges, when to move up and when to wait, etc.).

 

A lot of times players get told to 'git gud' or to improve the situational awareness, but in essence that means getting used to certain patterns during the game and taking measures to deal with it. Quite often the flank where I'm at is won and teammates push towards the enemy base. Despite the remaining enemy locations are not known, it is quite likely that they are close to my own base so I turn around and deal with the cap rushers so I won't lose by cap despite the score is 10-5 or so. Happens quite often on Karelia or Highway.

Another example: when to push and when to defend on a flank. Players usually have no map awareness at all and just go to a position they're used to and play. The brawl area in the middle of Airfield for example. If the enemy team has more tanks (or higher tier tanks) at the flank, you have to let the enemy come, over extend and get shot, tds are often supporting as well. It happens way too often that 1 or 2 tanks play too aggressive and die, and then the enemy team has an easy push and also an easy win. Holding the position would be much better, since the toptier tanks of the allied team probably are trying to take the high ground in the south area and can help with flanking. Bad players don't see these things going on and don't act appropriately, causing a loss.



Tidal_Force #28 Posted 04 April 2018 - 05:22 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 04 April 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

The Jingle saying 'if it stupid and it works, it ain't stupid' is a very very stupid and incorrect assessment. It is still stupid, and it still was a bad decision.

 

From certain webcomic I'm reading: "If it's stupid and it works, it's still stupid and you're lucky. "

 

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 04 April 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

Given some of the decision making I see in game I fear for the safety of these individuals and any innocent bystanders IRL.

 

I have been holding that exact opinion for years now. With small difference that I don't actually care about their safety, only about safety of bystanders.

 

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 04 April 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

 

Not always. Killing a tank is always useful, but if I've got friends in the area that can pick up the low HP kill then I'll not waste a 750 shell on them, I'd rather put it into another target and reduce them to low HP for someone to pick up the kill on.

 

Knowing quality of "allied" players, that's very risky gamble. I can't count how many times I rushed past low HP enemy to do full damage to enemies behind him, expecting killstealing baboons on my team to be useful for once only to get shot in the back because not only no one else killed him, but he even ignored them just to turn turret 180 and shoot me.

 

View PostSirDixie, on 04 April 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

 

Yeah, but they had that one game in 2016 where they got Hifh Calibre from shooting the bad players from the other team who went to beach. It doesn't matter that the fields were lost because they did loads of damage so it must be everyone else's fault.

 

This attitude is very common, not only in WoT.

 

View PostJumping_TurtIe, on 04 April 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

 

I once read 'But WW2 was won from the beach' .....

 

Which is wrong too, assuming it refers to Normandy (a case can probably be made for Dunkirk). Last decisive battle of WWII in Europe was Stalingrad, by it's end in February 1943, Second World War was already decided and summer landings of 1944 had no meaningful impact, they however had large impact on soon-to-begin Cold War. But that's different story.

LordMuffin #29 Posted 04 April 2018 - 05:43 PM

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View Postfwhaatpiraat, on 04 April 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

 

Cool replay and topic imo :) Even if you 'only' did 5k dmg and 5 kills, it would still be an interesting game because the decision making is what made you carry the game and not the numbers of dmg and kills.

 

Ofcourse you had your lucky moments: bad play of type 59, teammate shooting the type, IS-3 that wasn't abled to shoot/kill you when you ran away (did you know you would become unspotted or was it being semi-lucky him not having plenty of view range?), suiciding t28htc, etc. But luck isn't what made you have this nice game, it's the knowledge of the mechanics of view range and camo, knowledge of the map and making use of habits/patterns (running away from the heavies, making use of the ridges, when to move up and when to wait, etc.).

 

A lot of times players get told to 'git gud' or to improve the situational awareness, but in essence that means getting used to certain patterns during the game and taking measures to deal with it. Quite often the flank where I'm at is won and teammates push towards the enemy base. Despite the remaining enemy locations are not known, it is quite likely that they are close to my own base so I turn around and deal with the cap rushers so I won't lose by cap despite the score is 10-5 or so. Happens quite often on Karelia or Highway.

Another example: when to push and when to defend on a flank. Players usually have no map awareness at all and just go to a position they're used to and play. The brawl area in the middle of Airfield for example. If the enemy team has more tanks (or higher tier tanks) at the flank, you have to let the enemy come, over extend and get shot, tds are often supporting as well. It happens way too often that 1 or 2 tanks play too aggressive and die, and then the enemy team has an easy push and also an easy win. Holding the position would be much better, since the toptier tanks of the allied team probably are trying to take the high ground in the south area and can help with flanking. Bad players don't see these things going on and don't act appropriately, causing a loss.

I am pretty certain the IS-3 didn't spot me at all, and that I was unspotted when I began shooting him.

My team mate killed Type indeed, but I had that kill anyway, though he saved me 250 hp, which it turned out I didn't need.

 

Indeed, the results are not as interesting as some of the decisions I made. It is just sad that I rarely have to make these kind of decisions.



Karasu_Hidesuke #30 Posted 04 April 2018 - 05:51 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

Another tip.

If you ever want to go hill on Malinovka.
You ALWAYS GO TO THE WINDMILL WITHOUT EVER STOPPING ON YOUR WAY THERE FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.

 

Wouldn't that be what their arty is pinning their hopes (and their sights) on?

LordMuffin #31 Posted 04 April 2018 - 06:28 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 04 April 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

 

Wouldn't that be what their arty is pinning their hopes (and their sights) on?

Maybe. But it is the only way to win hill. If you don't go there, hill is lost. 



Slyspy #32 Posted 04 April 2018 - 06:41 PM

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View PostTidal_Force, on 04 April 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:

 

Which is wrong too, assuming it refers to Normandy (a case can probably be made for Dunkirk). Last decisive battle of WWII in Europe was Stalingrad, by it's end in February 1943, Second World War was already decided and summer landings of 1944 had no meaningful impact, they however had large impact on soon-to-begin Cold War. But that's different story.

 

Tough to liberate occupied territory without boots on the ground, and better if those boots are not Soviet. It really depends on what you think is being decided by these battles. 



Spurtung #33 Posted 05 April 2018 - 01:44 AM

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View PostFrostilicus, on 04 April 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

Strange that everyone knows going to the beach on Overlord is fail, but there's always 2 or 3 that do it regardless :)

 

Turds will be turds.

SilentGaze #34 Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:58 AM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

From time to time, players come her and ask, how to get good at WoT. Responses vary from: Post a replay and I/we can tell you what you did good and bad, improve situational awareness, shoot premium ammo (a stupid one) etc.

A crucial part of how to get better at WoT is down to your decision making though, which is what gets pointed out in replays shown, and your situational awareness helps you improve (easier to make good decisions if you know what is going on around you). So I had a thought, after a decent battle ...

 

​First, an exellent post not only as exaples of decision making, but also to show, that playing TD is not sitting in an bush all game long. Good advices are good in that particular situation but not to be used every time. For new players the problem we face is; how to learn good decision making. 

 

I'm an old guy, and when my son asked me to play WOT, I told him that with my reflexes I can't compete youngsters in video shooting game. His answer was: In WOT fast reflexes are not so important, you can compensate your slow reflexes with good thinking.  He gave me two advices to start:

 

1st: Learn to stay alive. Don't shoot enemies if you can avoid it. Playing that way taught me situational awareness and map awareness. Trying to stay alive you have to know every moment where enemies are, and where some of them might be or are going to be soon.  Which enemies may spot me and shoot me, and where I can escape if spotted.

 

After learnt to stay alive, his second advice was:  Start learning to make damage and stay alive.

 

I've not been an good in learning this game, but sometimes I've had an newbies luck like in this,  #409 of my games.

 

My decision making in that game was very simple:

1st My first game in new Malinovka, so I'll go to 1-2 line.  Seems some good teammates, maybe look what they do.

  - My platoon mates didn't have mics, so no conversation and real cooperation  in platoon.

  - Noticed that T67 and thought if I can do something for it.

 

After that flank was cleared, thought that Grant may need some help. Wasn't sure he notice an tomatos help, but tried. Was lucky to destroy that DW2.

  - I propably had better view range and camo, so decided to try spot to him.

  - Succeeded to spot M8A1 but let Stug IV to finish it. I was too afraid to get shot at.

  - Only on enemy left, and good player on Stug III G. Probably he can outspot me, which happened, so back back back. 

 

Now some questions:

Should I had to rush forward when Stug III G spotted me, 'cause I was in full health and could take an hit?

How does in game voice chat operate? I pressed H-key to activate it and then Q-key when talking. My platoon mates didn't hear me. 



fwhaatpiraat #35 Posted 05 April 2018 - 11:47 AM

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View PostSilentGaze, on 05 April 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Now some questions:

Should I had to rush forward when Stug III G spotted me, 'cause I was in full health and could take an hit?

How does in game voice chat operate? I pressed H-key to activate it and then Q-key when talking. My platoon mates didn't hear me. 

Good game.

You have 265 hit points, the stug probably has the gun with 135 alpha dmg. You would be dead in 2 shots, so you could be dead 4 seconds after you get hit for the first time. It is very unlikely that you would spot the stug shooting at you since you have very bad view range on the move and he probably has the camo skill trained on his crew and maybe a camonet as well.

 

It would be safer to move through the 0-line, so you won't have to cross the open field to get closer to him.



VarzA #36 Posted 05 April 2018 - 12:27 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 03 April 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

Another tip.

If you ever want to go hill on Malinovka.
You ALWAYS GO TO THE WINDMILL WITHOUT EVER STOPPING ON YOUR WAY THERE FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO EVER.

 

Great tip, but it's 2yrs later and we have tons of players still going beach on Overlord .... so yeah.

 

View PostTidal_Force, on 04 April 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:


Which is wrong too, assuming it refers to Normandy (a case can probably be made for Dunkirk). Last decisive battle of WWII in Europe was Stalingrad, by it's end in February 1943, Second World War was already decided and summer landings of 1944 had no meaningful impact, they however had large impact on soon-to-begin Cold War. But that's different story.

 

That's a very .... silly opinion.


Edited by VarzA, 05 April 2018 - 12:45 PM.





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