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When will the German tech tree get overhauled?


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Snake_Keeper #1 Posted 08 April 2018 - 05:59 AM

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Like, seriously? The tree is a mess of conflicting design principles gameplay wise. In WWII, German tanks had good cross-country performance, and good accuracy. What we have in the game? A bunch of slow snails, and most of them cannot hit a shot reliably. There are some notable exceptions, but mostly, the German tech tree is composed of tanks that have poor terrain resistances, poor hidden bloom values, and absurdly high aim times for the gun caliber.

 

In WWII, the Tiger I outpaced the Sherman in cross-country, AND on the road. In the game, the Tiger I is lucky to keep up. Likewise the Tiger 131. Why? Cause of the terrain resistance values. Panther also has way lower performance moving about than it was famed for in the war.

 

What the tech tree needs, is the fixing of aim times, hidden bloom values, and resistance values. So the tree has something UNIQUE. A tank lineup that both has good performance out in the open in regards to maneuvering, and acceleration, and they hit their targets, while not also taking so much time to aim that Stalin has hit the coffin by the time the aim circle finishes blooming down.



Homer_J #2 Posted 08 April 2018 - 06:19 AM

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Eee it's been a while since we had a proper bunch of German fanboys come out of the woodwork.

 

The German trees were revised, Maus was moved to it's fantasy line and the fantasy line was given a fantasy tier X in the spirit of making consistently boring lines.

 

Tiger was overweight and over engineered, prone to breakdowns and couldn't cope with mud or snow because it needed so many wheels cramming down both sides just to prevent it collapsing in a heap.

 

As for the hidden bloom values, how are they hidden when we all know where to find them.  Some of us even understand them, which you don't seem to.


Edited by Homer_J, 08 April 2018 - 06:20 AM.


Snake_Keeper #3 Posted 08 April 2018 - 06:32 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 08 April 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

 

As for the hidden bloom values, how are they hidden when we all know where to find them.  Some of us even understand them, which you don't seem to.

T-10 has better moving/traverse hidden bloom values compared to E75. Likewise the 705A/IS-7 to the Maus.

And they are hidden cause they are not in the game. You can ask people in the match if they know what their tank's turret traverse bloom value is, and they will ask you what is that?

 

 

And finding the tech tree problematic is not fanboyism. If your only role on this forum is to try aggravate people so they start flame warring with you, I would suggest you try someone else cause I will not fall for that.


Edited by Snake_Keeper, 08 April 2018 - 06:34 AM.


TankkiPoju #4 Posted 08 April 2018 - 06:35 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 08 April 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

As for the hidden bloom values, how are they hidden when we all know where to find them.  Some of us even understand them, which you don't seem to.

 

It's 2018 and the game still has crap load of hidden variables in tanks, that WG for some reason wants to keep away from the official client.

 

Imagine if games like Counter-Strike had hidden stats in guns and playe rmovement, no one would accept it.



hasnainrakha57 #5 Posted 08 April 2018 - 06:45 AM

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Agreed germans are far behind.Recently uk tree was buffed.Ussr got reworked.Now its German tree needs rework its the 2nd biggest tree in the game.They are actually lag behind now.

mtnm #6 Posted 08 April 2018 - 07:49 AM

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@Snake_Keeper

 

Here comes the troll squad explaining why german tanks are perfectly alright and you are just a wehraboo.



DracheimFlug #7 Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:24 AM

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View PostSnake_Keeper, on 08 April 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

Like, seriously? The tree is a mess of conflicting design principles gameplay wise. In WWII, German tanks had good cross-country performance, and good accuracy. What we have in the game? A bunch of slow snails, and most of them cannot hit a shot reliably. There are some notable exceptions, but mostly, the German tech tree is composed of tanks that have poor terrain resistances, poor hidden bloom values, and absurdly high aim times for the gun caliber.

 

In WWII, the Tiger I outpaced the Sherman in cross-country, AND on the road. In the game, the Tiger I is lucky to keep up. Likewise the Tiger 131. Why? Cause of the terrain resistance values. Panther also has way lower performance moving about than it was famed for in the war.

 

What the tech tree needs, is the fixing of aim times, hidden bloom values, and resistance values. So the tree has something UNIQUE. A tank lineup that both has good performance out in the open in regards to maneuvering, and acceleration, and they hit their targets, while not also taking so much time to aim that Stalin has hit the coffin by the time the aim circle finishes blooming down.

 

Which Tiger and which Sherman? Late model Shermans were quite good and slightly faster than a Tiger. And the Panther had a horrible final drive. It had a life of about 150 km before needing replacement. The Panther in theory had huge manoeuvrability given the innovative double differential steering system, but said system would snap the final drive pretty much instantly so the crews were told not to use it. Gun was great, armour was good, commander's optics were fantastic (but gunner's optics were lacking). Could be pretty impressive in battle but strategically a mess. And those conclusions are based on French post war testing of late model Panthers.

Edited by DracheimFlug, 08 April 2018 - 08:30 AM.


Jigabachi #8 Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:28 AM

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View Postmtnm, on 08 April 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

@Snake_Keeper

 

Here comes the troll squad explaining why german tanks are perfectly alright and you are just a wehraboo.

His major argument is "butbutbut in RL they were able to fly!" and he doesn't even bother to mention the OP and unbalanced ones, so what do you expect?



DracheimFlug #9 Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:32 AM

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View Postmtnm, on 08 April 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

@Snake_Keeper

 

Here comes the troll squad explaining why german tanks are perfectly alright and you are just a wehraboo.

 

Have you got anything that actually backs the arguments in favour of the German tanks? 

Snake_Keeper #10 Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:32 AM

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View PostDracheimFlug, on 08 April 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

 

Which Tiger and which Sherman? Late model Shermans were quite good and slightly faster than a Tiger.

 

Late models, on the road yes(depending on the Tiger I, early models did 44km/h vs 48km/h while later models 38km/h vs 48km/h). But in cross-country, both Tiger I, and Panther I outperformed the Sherman.

 

 

And Jigabachi I don't make any exaggerated arguments. Why would I mention the OP(unbalanced) ones when talking about rejigging the whole tech tree? What would be the point? I'm not here to talk about how German tanks are underpowered, I'm here to talk about how German tech tree is inconsistently designed gameplay wise that creates very jarring gameplay when transferring tank to tank. There is no consistency. One tank its the accuracy, one tank it is the armor and firepower, and so on. Most of the German tanks in the war had largely similar design principle, which resulted in very uniform performance characteristics.


Edited by Snake_Keeper, 08 April 2018 - 08:34 AM.


DracheimFlug #11 Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:41 AM

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View PostSnake_Keeper, on 08 April 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

 

Late models, on the road yes(depending on the Tiger I, early models did 44km/h vs 48km/h while later models 38km/h vs 48km/h). But in cross-country, both Tiger I, and Panther I outperformed the Sherman.

 

 

And Jigabachi I don't make any exaggerated arguments. Why would I mention the OP(unbalanced) ones when talking about rejigging the whole tech tree? What would be the point? I'm not here to talk about how German tanks are underpowered, I'm here to talk about how German tech tree is inconsistently designed gameplay wise that creates very jarring gameplay when transferring tank to tank. There is no consistency. One tank its the accuracy, one tank it is the armor and firepower, and so on. Most of the German tanks in the war had largely similar design principle, which resulted in very uniform performance characteristics.

 

Do you have any source material to back that up? I can't seem to find much of any source on late model Sherman off road speeds at the moment. Oh and the Panther turret could not turn if the tank was on any slope greater than 20° either.



RamRaid90 #12 Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:43 AM

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Don't see any difference in playstyle between Tiger 1-Tiger II and E75.

 

Armour on all is unreliable and you should never be within spitting distance of a gun that is pointing your way.

 

E-100 is the only one (out of all german tanks) that has a slightly different playstyle to the rest of its line IMO.....


Edited by RamRaid90, 08 April 2018 - 08:44 AM.


Snake_Keeper #13 Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:44 AM

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View PostDracheimFlug, on 08 April 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

 

Do you have any source material to back that up? I can't seem to find much of any source on late model Sherman off road speeds at the moment. Oh and the Panther turret could not turn if the tank was on any slope greater than 20° either.

And the KV-2 couldn't turn its turret at all if it wasn't on perfectly flat ground. This isn't a completely realistic game, I'm merely using the real life traits that were acknowledged as guidelines for what I think should happen to the tech tree.

 

And on the Sherman cross-country performance, I can dig out a lot. I'll give you a hint: https://www.reddit.c...man_vs_panther/

I'm not going to dig out around 100 webpages I've read on WWII history regarding tank performance, plenty of material that tells about it. If you very specifically search "Sherman tank cross-country performance", or "Sherman vs Panther cross-country" or "Sherman vs Panther performance" you find a lot of the material I've read.

 

 


Edited by Snake_Keeper, 08 April 2018 - 08:47 AM.


Jigabachi #14 Posted 08 April 2018 - 08:50 AM

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View PostSnake_Keeper, on 08 April 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

And Jigabachi I don't make any exaggerated arguments. Why would I mention the OP(unbalanced) ones when talking about rejigging the whole tech tree? What would be the point? I'm not here to talk about how German tanks are underpowered, I'm here to talk about how German tech tree is inconsistently designed gameplay wise that creates very jarring gameplay when transferring tank to tank. There is no consistency. One tank its the accuracy, one tank it is the armor and firepower, and so on. Most of the German tanks in the war had largely similar design principle, which resulted in very uniform performance characteristics.

That is quite different to what you wrote in your starting post. This way I'd kinda agree with you... to some extent.



DracheimFlug #15 Posted 08 April 2018 - 12:16 PM

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View PostSnake_Keeper, on 08 April 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

And the KV-2 couldn't turn its turret at all if it wasn't on perfectly flat ground. This isn't a completely realistic game, I'm merely using the real life traits that were acknowledged as guidelines for what I think should happen to the tech tree.

 

And on the Sherman cross-country performance, I can dig out a lot. I'll give you a hint: https://www.reddit.c...man_vs_panther/

I'm not going to dig out around 100 webpages I've read on WWII history regarding tank performance, plenty of material that tells about it. If you very specifically search "Sherman tank cross-country performance", or "Sherman vs Panther cross-country" or "Sherman vs Panther performance" you find a lot of the material I've read.

 

 

 

The linked video is no longer available due to copyright issues and the commentary below says nothing about actual cross country speeds. And in fact it suggests that the testing in the video was not under equal conditions.

 

The KV-2 is nowhere near as well known as the Panther and was produced in much lower numbers. Moreover, it is funny that you dismiss the historical problems with the Panther by saying that this is not a completely realistic game, while posting a thread insisting tanks should be more historically accurate. 



Simeon85 #16 Posted 08 April 2018 - 12:27 PM

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View PostSnake_Keeper, on 08 April 2018 - 06:32 AM, said:

T-10 has better moving/traverse hidden bloom values compared to E75. Likewise the 705A/IS-7 to the Maus.

And they are hidden cause they are not in the game. You can ask people in the match if they know what their tank's turret traverse bloom value is, and they will ask you what is that?

 

 

And finding the tech tree problematic is not fanboyism. If your only role on this forum is to try aggravate people so they start flame warring with you, I would suggest you try someone else cause I will not fall for that.

 

T-10 is a heavium, it has nowhere near the armour of the E75 and also carries a smaller gun, should be pretty obvious why the E75 has worse gun handling.

 

And the Maus has better gun handling than both those tanks, the 705As gun handling is terrible by most people's account and the Maus because it's so slow barely has any bloom anyway and has a much better aim time as it is.  As well as better accuracy than both tanks.

 

So you are flat out wrong on all counts there and there is really nothing wrong with the German tech tree, it doesn't need an overhaul in the slightest. 

 

There are a handful of tanks that need buffing, no different to most tech trees. 

 

Nor are there any national traits anymore, there is no logical reason for a Tiger, a heavy tank to go faster than a Sherman, a medium tank. The Tiger has a better gun, better armour and much more hit points, thus it is logically inferior in terms of mobility.

 

Likewise a Leopard 1 or an E50 is not going to play the same way as a Maus. 

 

Real life is completely irrelevant, it's about gameplay balance. 



Snake_Keeper #17 Posted 08 April 2018 - 12:35 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 08 April 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

 

T-10 is a heavium, it has nowhere near the armour of the E75 and also carries a smaller gun, should be pretty obvious why the E75 has worse gun handling.

Real life is completely irrelevant, it's about gameplay balance. 

Obj 705 carries a larger gun by caliber, and has better hidden statistics.

 

And the whole point was to use real life to guide gameplay design so there is one consistent idea in the tech tree. Not to make the game realistic, but to have guidelines in the tech tree that make the tank lines consistent in performance etc.

 

And your points about accuracy in general:

http://www.vbaddict....ratio&server=eu

Notice the 705 sits above the E75. The IS-7 is above the Maus. What does gun handling matter when you hit your shot anyways due to hidden statistics?


Edited by Snake_Keeper, 08 April 2018 - 12:48 PM.


Hardass #18 Posted 08 April 2018 - 12:36 PM

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View PostSnake_Keeper, on 08 April 2018 - 04:59 AM, said:

Like, seriously? The tree is a mess of conflicting design principles gameplay wise. In WWII, German tanks had good cross-country performance, and good accuracy. What we have in the game? A bunch of slow snails, and most of them cannot hit a shot reliably. There are some notable exceptions, but mostly, the German tech tree is composed of tanks that have poor terrain resistances, poor hidden bloom values, and absurdly high aim times for the gun caliber.

 

In WWII, the Tiger I outpaced the Sherman in cross-country, AND on the road. In the game, the Tiger I is lucky to keep up. Likewise the Tiger 131. Why? Cause of the terrain resistance values. Panther also has way lower performance moving about than it was famed for in the war.

 

What the tech tree needs, is the fixing of aim times, hidden bloom values, and resistance values. So the tree has something UNIQUE. A tank lineup that both has good performance out in the open in regards to maneuvering, and acceleration, and they hit their targets, while not also taking so much time to aim that Stalin has hit the coffin by the time the aim circle finishes blooming down.

 

Only advantage the Tiger 1 had over  the allies tanks was its armour and gun other than that it was an overweight unreliable slow waste of resources the Russians had the right idea with the T34 and the US with the Sherman these were war winning tanks the 2 great tanks Germany produced was the Panzer Mk IV and the Panther. that's it and by the end of WWII these were out classed buy the allied armour of the time anyhow ala Pershing the IS tanks and the up coming (but never saw service in WWII) Centurion. 

 

Have a read of some actual historical Data and you will see for you self the Tiger Tiger 2 Elephant and the Jadgtiger were near disasters.


Edited by Hardass, 08 April 2018 - 12:37 PM.


Snake_Keeper #19 Posted 08 April 2018 - 12:40 PM

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View PostHardass, on 08 April 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

 

Only advantage the Tiger 1 had over  the allies tanks was its armour and gun other than that it was an overweight unreliable slow waste of resources the Russians had the right idea with the T34 and the US with the Sherman these were war winning tanks the 2 great tanks Germany produced was the Panzer Mk IV and the Panther. that's it and by the end of WWII these were out classed buy the allied armour of the time anyhow ala Pershing the IS tanks and the up coming (but never saw service in WWII) Centurion. 

 

Have a read of some actual historical Data and you will see for you self the Tiger Tiger 2 Elephant and the Jadgtiger were near disasters.

 

And is reliability a factor in this game?

Simeon85 #20 Posted 08 April 2018 - 12:52 PM

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View PostSnake_Keeper, on 08 April 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

Obj 705 carries a larger gun by caliber, and has better hidden statistics.

 

And the whole point was to use real life to guide gameplay design so there is one consistent idea in the tech tree. Not to make the game realistic, but to have guidelines in the tech tree that make the tank lines consistent in performance etc.

 

No it doesn't, Maus literally has 50% better dispersion on moving the turret and a better aim time, it's gun handling is much superior to the 705As. 

 

You can't have a consistent idea to a whole tech tree, that is just stupid, there are 5 tank classes in the German tech tree and a whole host of completely different tanks with different roles. 

 

And your 'guidelines' are based on myths and propaganda anyway, not reality, German tanks had loads of flaws and were not the best at anything as a whole. If you want to talk about ground resistances then go look at the Churchill, that would go over ground that German tanks would fall apart over just looking at it, that is if they weren't already broken down as it is. If you want to talk about stabilisation and firing on the move, then the Sherman is the tank you look at. 

 

But like I said, game balance is all that matters and German tanks generally are fine, don't see a reason why the whole tank tree needs re-doing. 






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