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Berto72 #21 Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:42 PM

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TIER X:

aim time  is too slow..

Tank must expose too much itself to fire.

The playstyle, (so the gun) must be much more similar to leopard.

for same reason, intra clip load must be lowered

AND:

put a flag over the rear, or do anythin  to have a better clear difference at first peek between tank front and rear...in the furball of dogfight, go forward, go back, rotate turret....... it really confusing!!!

Damage: to 360 to 390


Edited by Berto72, 15 April 2018 - 10:47 PM.


Koz23 #22 Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:47 PM

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I'm not really a big fan of the aim times on the tier IX and X, and also, the tier X is pretty bouncy against APCR shells because of the angling.

Edited by Koz23, 16 April 2018 - 10:23 PM.


Berto72 #23 Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:19 PM

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Honestly I was hoping for something better...
The autoreloader ( i tried tier X) instead of having the best of reloader and single shoot, has the worst of both: too slow the drum reload, too slow the single shoot.
 


 

I really prefer a 140  fast single shooter or a TVP faster reloader, rather than a PROGETTO that does both in so long time.
With only two shots in the drum (or even to change full drum  in premium ammo) much, much  better full reload  of TVP in 23 "stock" seconds

rather than a PROGETTO, than have potentially always full drum disposal but 52 "stock" seconds if used (TVP can have twice reload in same time!!!!)
Aim time and intraclip reload is pure carnival target for return fire.


 

For to grind, hope in buff.



pazurre #24 Posted 17 April 2018 - 01:14 PM

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Tbh I think they should swap loading time for shells, from progressive like it is now, to regressive, so it takes longer to reload with each shell. This way you could play a tank in 2 ways, as a single shell reloader, not loosing much of a dpm to other standard tanks, or you could wait for a drum to reload, but I'd take longer with each shell.
So f.e instaed of now 10/12/14/16, you would have 16/14/12/10, you wouldnt feel like you destroy your dpm if you fire more than 1 shell, and tank would be more flexible to play with.
Just a thought.

cpt_Andrew #25 Posted 17 April 2018 - 01:36 PM

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I had a go with the Progetto 65, and IMO its pretty good, though I'd give it some small-ish buffs:

 

1) reload times: 10-10-12-14 from 10-12-14-16, this would reduce clip reload from 52 seconds to 46 seconds, still way worse than the nearest comparable autoloader, the BC-25t (46 seconds for 4x360 vs 40 seconds for 5x390). Plus, this sort of reload times encourage the correct playstyle of firing off 2-3 shots and then reloading more.
2) more powerful engine, power per weight in the low 20's.
3) (optional) intra-clip reload to 2.3 seconds from 2.75 seconds.

 

I think a big problem of the autoreloading tanks atm is that their reload times get immediately worse after firing that second shell, so a lot of ppl get the wrong idea that it has to be either played as an autoloader (empty the clip) or as a single-shot tank, while imo the autoreloaders have to be played as sort of between the two, fire off a few shells when there is an opportunity, and then wait to reload, punish those who peek out carelessly without then having to reload the entire magazine. This is something that neither autoloaders nor single-shot tanks are really good at, but autoreloaders I feel are born to do that.

 

One criticism regarding the UI: The reload time indicator is sometimes misleadingly wrong: When there is only one shell loaded in the Progetto 65 for example, it says the next shell would be loaded in 2.7 seconds (shouldn't it be 2.75 seconds anyway?), but in that case the next shell would be loaded in 16 seconds (times reload modifiers). 


Edited by cpt_Andrew, 17 April 2018 - 01:38 PM.


trispect #26 Posted 17 April 2018 - 03:33 PM

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The tier X as it is, is just not very good. Aimtime/dispersion should be better, intra-clip reload shorter, and magazine reload shorter. 

Berto72 #27 Posted 17 April 2018 - 05:20 PM

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View Postpazurre, on 17 April 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

Tbh I think they should swap loading time for shells, from progressive like it is now, to regressive, so it takes longer to reload with each shell. This way you could play a tank in 2 ways, as a single shell reloader, not loosing much of a dpm to other standard tanks, or you could wait for a drum to reload, but I'd take longer with each shell.
So f.e instaed of now 10/12/14/16, you would have 16/14/12/10, you wouldnt feel like you destroy your dpm if you fire more than 1 shell, and tank would be more flexible to play with.
Just a thought.

 

Sorry, but had you play ITA in test or just read stats?

16/14/12/10 mean 16 sec of reload in single shoot style? worse reload than hvy but  with 360dmg? 1350 dmg/min???


 



Berto72 #28 Posted 17 April 2018 - 06:10 PM

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from years waiting for Italian Tree to get tier X, from the first rumors about OTO MELARA Leopard and so on...

more time try it on test, more i dislike....

awful aesthetic, awful playstyle not single shoot nor auloloader instead both....

Im Italian, but really dont know if to grind them....    :facepalm:


 



xXPawnStarrXx #29 Posted 17 April 2018 - 07:51 PM

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Way to make the tier X tank better?

Remove the shell reset when firing, meaning it's an autoloader that's able to drop shots quick.

Increase the reload (20/16/14/12) and 2.5 interclip reload.

Buff the damage to 390 because why 360? (You're not no-scoping) and Lower the ammo count.

 

You'll have 1950 DPM as a singleshot, but you'll also have the option to drop the full 1560 in 7.5 seconds if need requires. Keeping the concept of the tank intact and not being too ridiculous at anything.

Also, what is up with the accuracy on turret rotation?



trispect #30 Posted 17 April 2018 - 08:21 PM

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View PostxXPawnStarrXx, on 17 April 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

Way to make the tier X tank better?

Remove the shell reset when firing, meaning it's an autoloader that's able to drop shots quick.

Increase the reload (20/16/14/12) and 2.5 interclip reload.

Buff the damage to 390 because why 360? (You're not no-scoping) and Lower the ammo count.

 

You'll have 1950 DPM as a singleshot, but you'll also have the option to drop the full 1560 in 7.5 seconds if need requires. Keeping the concept of the tank intact and not being too ridiculous at anything.

Also, what is up with the accuracy on turret rotation?

 

LOL? 20 second reload for the first shell?

Berto72 #31 Posted 17 April 2018 - 08:22 PM

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View PostxXPawnStarrXx, on 17 April 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Way to make the tier X tank better?

Remove the shell reset when firing, meaning it's an autoloader that's able to drop shots quick.

Increase the reload (20/16/14/12) and 2.5 interclip reload.

Buff the damage to 390 because why 360? (You're not no-scoping) and Lower the ammo count.

 

You'll have 1950 DPM as a singleshot, but you'll also have the option to drop the full 1560 in 7.5 seconds if need requires. Keeping the concept of the tank intact and not being too ridiculous at anything.

Also, what is up with the accuracy on turret rotation?

 

 A Med with 12 sec reload in single shoot and 62 sec to full reload or change ammo in premium..... any other med or autoloader will rip you apart....

Edit : i suppose he means 12 sec for firing one shell at full drum.... or at least hope this


Edited by Berto72, 17 April 2018 - 08:24 PM.


xXPawnStarrXx #32 Posted 17 April 2018 - 10:41 PM

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View PostBerto72, on 17 April 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

 

 A Med with 12 sec reload in single shoot and 62 sec to full reload or change ammo in premium..... any other med or autoloader will rip you apart....

Edit : i suppose he means 12 sec for firing one shell at full drum.... or at least hope this

 

Yes, I meant a 12 second reload with a full drum. You'll get 5 shots a minute if you put them out 1 by 1 for 1,950DPM, but it still allows you to drop all 4 for 1,560 in 7.5 seconds for harder fought situations. Not OP, just situational.

ExistanceUK #33 Posted 17 April 2018 - 11:34 PM

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Really the problem with the tier 10 that makes it feel odd to the others in the line is the 4th shell in the clip. It should have 3 shells only, that would make it a lot better and more flexible just like the rest of the line. The alpha (to 390) and reload times (to 2.5 intra and 8/10/12) can then be buffed without fear of making it OP because of a large clip. I'd also make some minor buffs to the aim time and gun handling. The goal being single shot DPM similar to the lower end the tier 10 meds (430U) and the auto loader similar to, but a bit worse than, the AMX 13 105. 

 

For the tier 9, it can keep the 360 alpha but lower the intra clip to 2.5 (yes I'd have this the same as both the tier 8 and 10) and the reload times to 9/11/13. Again some minor aim time and gun handling buffs. 

 

The idea bring that the line sound be consistent from tier 8 onwards. They are ok single shots only and no big clip potential (making them bad autoloaders) but you can flex to have some clip potential at the cost of dpm. Most people judge autoloaders on their clip potential rather than strictly just the reload time. 

 

 

 


Edited by ExistanceUK, 17 April 2018 - 11:46 PM.


pazurre #34 Posted 18 April 2018 - 12:36 AM

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View PostBerto72, on 17 April 2018 - 05:20 PM, said:

 

Sorry, but had you play ITA in test or just read stats?

16/14/12/10 mean 16 sec of reload in single shoot style? worse reload than hvy but  with 360dmg? 1350 dmg/min???


 

Well, had you? 16s rld on first shell is currently in the game, what I meant was that it should be 10s reload on first shell in drum, then 12 etc.



Berto72 #35 Posted 18 April 2018 - 10:21 AM

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View Postpazurre, on 17 April 2018 - 11:36 PM, said:

Well, had you? 16s rld on first shell is currently in the game, what I meant was that it should be 10s reload on first shell in drum, then 12 etc.

 

sure you was? sure about what you told?

you mean empty>10>12>14>16> full drum... the single shoot dpm is gived by reload time of 4 shell, so   fire 1 shoot >16.....  fire 1 shoot>16.....


 

Yes , im in game  for testing, not to spam ammo gold, and  currently (checked by slow motion replay) scored:

 

with standard vent and rammer, bia:

empty > 13.2 / 11.4 / 9.9 / 8.3 > full drum

8.3 single shoot.

42.8 full reload or change ammo.


With best configuration (bia/ imp vents / imp, gun rammer) :

empty > 12.7 / 11.0 / 9.4 / 7.9 > full drum

7.9 single shoot.

41.0 full reload or change ammo.

 


 and still find this not competitive, specially if consider  aimtime and intraclip reload too.

Pretty similar playstyle / armor tanks (TVP as autoloader or leopard  as single shooter) do it better  for  intraclip, aimtime, reload time;

Pretty similar  intraclip, aimtime, reload time tanks (bat as autoloader, STB as single shooter) do it better for playstyle / armor.

 


 

EDIT: my motivated opinions, free to have yours.

Good Hunt.


 


 


 


 

 


Edited by Berto72, 18 April 2018 - 10:24 AM.


ExistanceUK #36 Posted 19 April 2018 - 08:46 PM

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So the test server has updated and there have been some minor buffs to the top tier Italian tanks, as the EU portal hasn't updated correctly with the patch notes, here they are from the NA front page: 

 

P.44 Pantera (Tier VIII)
Changed dispersion of the Cannone da 90/53 gun for the P.44 Pantera prima variante turret from 0.36 m to 0.35 m

Changed dispersion of the Cannone da 90/74 gun for the P.44 Pantera prima variante turret from 0.36 m to 0.35 m

Changed dispersion of the Cannone da 90/53 gun for the P.44 Pantera seconda variante turret from 0.35 m to 0.34 m

Changed dispersion of the Cannone da 90/74 gun for the P.44 Pantera seconda variante turret from 0.34 m to 0.33 m

 

Prototipo Standard B (Tier IX)
Changed dispersion of the Cannone da 90 Rh gun for the Prototipo Standard A (W 2) turret from 0.34 m to 0.33 m

Changed dispersion of the Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun for the Prototipo Standard A (W 2) turret from 0.36 m to 0.35 m

Changed dispersion of the Cannone da 90 Rh gun for the Prototipo Standard B (R 1) turret from 0.33 m to 0.32 m

Changed dispersion of the Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun for the Prototipo Standard B (R 1) turret from 0.36 m to 0.35 m

Decreased dispersion on turret traverse of the Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun for the Prototipo Standard B (R 1) turret by 12%

Decreased dispersion on turret traverse of the Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun for the Prototipo Standard A (W 2) turret by 12%

Changed the aiming time of the Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun for the Prototipo Standard B (R 1) turret from 2.5 s to 2.3 s

Changed the aiming time of the Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun for the Prototipo Standard A (W 2) turret from 2.5 s to 2.4 s

Changed the reload time within the clip of the Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun for all turrets from 3.25 s to 3.0 s

 

Progetto M40 mod. 65 (Tier X)
Changed dispersion from 0.34 m to 0.33 m

Decreased dispersion on turret traverse by 14%

Changed aiming time from 2.3 s to 2.1 s

Decreased the reload time within the clip from 2.75 s to 2.5 s

 

 


Edited by ExistanceUK, 19 April 2018 - 08:56 PM.


HirAmHelcaraxe #37 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:50 PM

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I understand that the developers (the balancing team if it really exists, have my doubts at this point) want to be cautious when introducing a completely new mechanic fearing that it could be op and brake the game (for some reason that though didn't occurred with 268 v4) but the tier 9 and 10 of the new Italian line are really subpar.

 

We need to ask ourselves what balance is and reflect on that. You take something from a tank to give it something else or you give a little of everything to keep the total "weight" balanced with the competition (same tier and class). If you put too much in a tank without taking enough away it will outweigh the competition, if you don't put enough in it, it will be insubstantial. It's really like a balance. For example usually you sacrifice speed to have more armour (except 268 v4 which has both best armour and best mobility) or vice versa. In the firepower compartment you might want more dpm sacrificing some alpha (140, T62A) or better gun handling (STB1, 30B) or vice versa you might sacrifice dpm to have more alpha (430U, 121) or, in case of autoloaders, to have the potential of unloading important values of damage in a short amount of time. The awesome 1.950 clip potential of the bat-chat has always been balanced by what was the lowest dpm (2.300) of the tier and class competition. The T50/51 retains a bit more dpm (2.600) having a smaller clip potential (1.280).

 

The idea of a hybrid between regular loaders and autoloaders is brilliant, the system as it is being well thought. It was stated that autoreloaders would have performed worse than regular autoloaders if played as so and worse than regular loaders if played like so and this is absolutely the correct way to go. Also comparing these new tanks to autoloaders denotes the fact that many didn't understand yet that these are "simply" single shot loaders that have the option of unloading some shell faster when and if the need arises, of course paying the price of this flexibility with excruciating reload time. The problem here -most noticeably at tier 9 and 10- occurs when these tanks if played like regular loaders are not only worse than the "regular" regular loaders (sorry) but also considerably outdpmed (is it even a word?) by autoloaders with giant clip (BatChat). Here's a chart with the dpm of the various tier 10 medium tank. The Prosciutto 65's dpm is shown as if it's used as single shot loader.

(some data could be not up to date, if so please pm me)

We can see it's trash already if used as single shot. Yes, you have the option of unloading a clip but to do 1.440 damage you need 7.5 seconds (with the new 2.5 intraclip reload) and you will kiss your dpm goodbye for the next minute. What fool would play this over a T50/51 that has a slightly less clip at 1.280 but can unleash it in 4.5 seconds and be ready with another entire clip after a bit more than 23 seconds (with also better mobility to get away)? The intraclip reload is too long for a 360 alpha, either shorten it or increase the alpha to 390 as all 105mm which still wouldn't be sufficient to give the tank decent dpm. With a 390 alpha and a 9 seconds base reload it would have perfectly mediocre (as it should be) 2.600 dpm. If you want to keep 360 alpha for some obscure reason only known to you then an 8/8.5 seconds reload would obtain the same result.

 

Now, autoloaders with a better dpm than regular loaders are not a problem per se but only if the regular loader has something else to go for it that makes it weigh more (that balance thing). We can see in the aforeposted chart that the 50/51 has a better dpm than some regular loaders, but that's ok because those tanks trade some dpm for good armour in the case of the 50M or excellent armour and more alpha (and best camo rating but that's marginal) in the case of the 430U. What does the Prosecco 65 have to go for it to justify such an horrendous dpm? A part from the clip flexibility that exposes you for that a very long time and then totally destroys the tank for one minute that is. Surely it has no armour, it's angled but its frontal thickness is worse than any other medium tank, Leopard and BatChat included. Such few armour should give this tank nice mobility, right? No, it's incredibly sluggish for a paper tank (traverse speed apart). Gun handling is kinda ok, sure the changes of the second iteration of the test server helped, aim time at 2.10 and accuracy at .33 are ok but tanks like this gets a bit battered by the invisible stats (dispersion moving and turning tank and turret) so the Leopard, an iconic tank in which the gun is the pivotal point has the worst in class and tier dispersion when moving and traverse the tank, 50% worse than the 430U, a tank supposed to have bad gun handling and don't come saying "but 430U it has bad accuracy" because really accuracy these days matters very little and for a brawler is the last thing in gun handling to look at (in vBAddict you can see 430U has a way better hit ratio then the Leo). For the Prog 65 things are not as bad, they're ok for this kind of new system in my opinion but surely it doesn't feel like a Leopard clone, it has the same dispersion values as a 121. Anyway, I wouldn't touch these stats as autoloaders (or tanks with some kind of loading mechanism) always had kinda poorer gun handling than a comparable tank.

 

In conclusion, the tier 10 -as it is- is totally out of meta, maybe in 2016 would’ve been ok, not today. Tier 9 will laugh at your dpm, if anyone rushes you you’re dead, you have absolutely no armour (and are huge) and mediocre mobility so you won’t get safe anytime soon. You can support snipe if you’re lucky and get one of those 3 non-corridor maps and your team is decent but the help you can give will still be marginal. How to fix this? Bring the dpm up to a mediocre 2.600 (9s reload and 390 alpha or 8/8.5s reload) and buff the specific power to be the same as the T50/51 or a bit less. I feel that 2.5s intraclip reload is a bit on the long side to be comfortable but it's ok, it's not an autoloader.

 

This tank does not have enough to go for it, it's a very bad tank with the ability to do a burst of damage in exchange of being even worse for the next 50 seconds.


Hilarious is the fact that someone fear to release a "maybe a bit too competitive tank" so they release a clearly uncompetitive tank that very few will grind to while the blatantly overpowered Object 268 v4 is there untouched, broking tier 10 mm just by existing (57% winrate) but I guess that all the gold shot at that thing must be very profitable.



roughstone #38 Posted 21 April 2018 - 05:42 AM

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Loosing the progress on the shell you are loading when you fire is pain in the [edited], and it's too much distraction to look at the shell reloading progress all the time. Maybe is good idea instead of loosing the reloaded time of the curent shell just to add 2.5 second to the reload time for evry shot you make afther first one. This make the reload time to look like:

1 Shot - 10-12-14-16

2 Shots -12,5-12-14-16

3 Shots - 15-12-14-16

4 Shots - 17.5 -12-14-16

This won't change the DPM or whatever of the tank but atleast no one will get mad because he shoot 0.1 second before the shell is loaded.

 



Rokim #39 Posted 21 April 2018 - 08:11 AM

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Anyone thinks 45sec reload for 4x360dmg is good?

ExistanceUK #40 Posted 21 April 2018 - 09:09 AM

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View PostRokim, on 21 April 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

Anyone thinks 45sec reload for 4x360dmg is good?

 

No, 3x 390 for a about 30sec base reload would make more sense and fit with the rest of the line better. The fourth shell is more of a problem than it is a benefit and should be removed. To make the tier 10 different to the tier 9 give it the 390 alpha it should have. 

 

I think they have the intra clip reload ok now and the aim time/gun handling is probably where it needs to be but the clip size is a problem and the single shot DPM still needs to go up a bit. 

 

 


Edited by ExistanceUK, 21 April 2018 - 09:14 AM.






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