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Loot boxes now forbidden in the Netherlands


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clixor #1 Posted 19 April 2018 - 09:56 AM

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Today the news broke that 4, yet to be named, gaming companies have broking the dutch gaming law by offering loot boxes. Ten companies who offered loot boxes were investigated.

 

Now, as we say in Holland, the soup isn't served as hot. Not ALL loot boxes are illegal. But gaming companies who allow the transfer of items through exchange sites are basically facilitating making a profit with their games and, as such, are breaking the law.

 

However the other conclusion was that, legally gambling or not, loot boxes are fundamentally the same as slot machines. So in that way, giving the demographic of world of tanks (with a lot of younger players), i do think it's unethical to keep providing such a feature. Or at the very least, protect people by giving a hard cap on the amount of loot boxes that are allowed to be purchased.



OllieCromwell #2 Posted 19 April 2018 - 09:59 AM

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View Postclixor, on 19 April 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

... Now, as we say in Holland, the soup isn't served as hot. ...

Actually ... we say "The soup isn't eaten as hot as it is served" ... :hiding:



NoobySkooby #3 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:00 AM

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Oh well hat means no Defender or interesting tanks in the Christmas boxes then, oh well nevermind:mellow:

CircleOfSorrow #4 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:12 AM

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Wasn't there a screenshot of the lootbox to be offered in the future, ie; outside of festive holiday seasons?  I like WoT lootboxes.  Because of them I payed something ridiculous like 5 or 6 euros a month for premium time.

ThinGun #5 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:21 AM

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View PostIncandescentGerbil, on 19 April 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

You ban loot boxes, but still allow the weed? You guysh are crazy. Abandon the EU and come join the UK! You could be a backup Scotland.

 

Or a friendly version of Wales.

MaxxyNL #6 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:22 AM

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Loot boxes that contain content that cannot be sold (to another player) by the buyer/player, are not illegal. 

 

The content that people get from, for example, the Christmas boxes, are not illegal because players cannot sell that content to another player.

So, the WG boxes are perfectly legal.

 

:honoring:



Geno1isme #7 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:40 AM

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View Postclixor, on 19 April 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

So in that way, giving the demographic of world of tanks (with a lot of younger players), i do think it's unethical to keep providing such a feature.

 

Where is world of tanks providing loot boxes at the moment? So far it's only been during the Christmas Special, and those were specificially designed to avoid any gambling classification (as technically you bought 250 gold with each box, the random stuff was just an extra goodie).

 

And since when do video game companies care about ethics? Anyway, the unlimited P2W mechanics in many mobile games are far worse than anything on the PC market.



Excavatus #8 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:44 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 19 April 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:

 

Or a friendly version of Wales.

 


 

 



Balc0ra #9 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:54 AM

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Xmas boxes was far from the worst in terms of loot boxes. You got what you payed for in terms of the minimal stuff. That had the same value of the price you payed. Tho.. the "you might get a type 59" part might be more arguable for the "gambling" part.

 

But considering EA and WB's boxes have less value then what you pay for on the worst drops that has a drop rate at over 40%. It's def... more of a gamble, and what started the discussion. So regardless. WG did at least not sink that low.

 

Tho the rest of EU is still behind, my nation more then others sadly. And even the US has only Hawaii that is really into it atm. And I doubt one nation will prevent WG from doing Xmas boxes this year. They will just not have it in your region. If your local law sees them as loot boxes that is.

 

But for now it seems that even EA and WB have learned that loot boxes don't sell, even less so considering one of their games made the ball roll on that law. And have toned it down... well EA did for a full week before they turned to something different. Now they look for GTA 5's method of Shark cards instead. As that made GTA V more then 1 billion USD last year alone.


Edited by Balc0ra, 19 April 2018 - 10:57 AM.


jabster #10 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:55 AM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 19 April 2018 - 09:40 AM, said:

 

Where is world of tanks providing loot boxes at the moment? So far it's only been during the Christmas Special, and those were specificially designed to avoid any gambling classification (as technically you bought 250 gold with each box, the random stuff was just an extra goodie).

 

And since when do video game companies care about ethics? Anyway, the unlimited P2W mechanics in many mobile games are far worse than anything on the PC market.

 

I’m certainly no expert in U.K. gambling law let alone Dutch but from what I read in articles at the time offering what is considered the same ‘value’ in loot boxes as you pay isn’t relevant to whether it’s gambling or not. The sticking point in the UK, at least, was that as there is no real world money economy for the items then the items are considered to have zero value and hence it’s not gambling.

 

Reading the OP it seems that the Dutch law is the same or at least very similar. I believe that means WG’s loot boxes would therefore be classed as legal.



Ceeb #11 Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:59 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 19 April 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

 

Or a friendly version of Wales.

 

​Lets just swap Wales and Holland.

 

Great scenery though!! it will be a miss.  



brisha #12 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:02 AM

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the WOT boxes weren't the same as the banned ones, which wil come to the UK and the rest of the EU.

 

You got the value of what you paid for, or better from WOT.


 

The ones the law is targeting is from games such as PUBG. These loot boxes contain mostly free items with a very very small percentage chance of getting a rare item so it is by the very definition gambling. Some games loot boxes are even found to have a 0.1% chance to get the item you buy the box for.



Mimos_A #13 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:05 AM

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View Postkaptainkrunch, on 19 April 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

Oh well hat means no Defender or interesting tanks in the Christmas boxes then, oh well nevermind:mellow:

 

It doesn't.


First of all, nothing has been banned and no one has been fined yet. After review the "chance games authority" has determined that 4 games are breaking regulation. No consequences have been announced yet. They ruled that the issue is with loot boxes that contain items that can be traded for real world money later. Other loot boxes they have adviced against and urged law-makers to look into, but as it stands, they're not breaking any law or regulation.

 

The 4 games are PUBG, FIFA18, Dota 2 and Rocket League. More might follow.



anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #14 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:08 AM

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View Postbrisha, on 19 April 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

the WOT boxes weren't the same as the banned ones, which wil come to the UK and the rest of the EU.

 

You got the value of what you paid for, or better from WOT.


 

The ones the law is targeting is from games such as PUBG. These loot boxes contain mostly free items with a very very small percentage chance of getting a rare item so it is by the very definition gambling. Some games loot boxes are even found to have a 0.1% chance to get the item you buy the box for.

 

 

Nope... The ones they speak about in the law are the ones you can re-sell.

 

The chance you have to receive a rare item has nothing to do with it.

It's all about prizes which can be sold. Nothing more or less....



Kozzy #15 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:08 AM

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View Postjabster, on 19 April 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

 

I’m certainly no expert in U.K. gambling law let alone Dutch but from what I read in articles at the time offering what is considered the same ‘value’ in loot boxes as you pay isn’t relevant to whether it’s gambling or not. The sticking point in the UK, at least, was that as there is no real world money economy for the items then the items are considered to have zero value and hence it’s not gambling.

 

Reading the OP it seems that the Dutch law is the same or at least very similar. I believe that means WG’s loot boxes would therefore be classed as legal.

 

Not sure I understand this part.  If someone is will to pay for something then by definition is has a 'value', no?

 

 



SirGruut #16 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:10 AM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 19 April 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

Xmas boxes was far from the worst in terms of loot boxes. You got what you payed for in terms of the minimal stuff. That had the same value of the price you payed. Tho.. the "you might get a type 59" part might be more arguable for the "gambling" part.

 

You really werent guaranteed value for money from those lootboxes, i bought the medium package (which was around 40 euros i think). I got 1 week over premium, minimal amount of gold and 1 t4 tank. I converted it back then and noticed i lost about 20% of my value with the lootbox. The reason they were described as good value is because people were happy all over the place about their lucky draws. The only way the lootboxes became worhtwhile is if you had the tanks already and bought 100-200 boxes. This would mean you are guaranteed a t8 premium and multiple t4's, the conversion of those tanks into gold is the only reason the lootboxes were good

 

I think its a good thing if these things get banned, they are giving the players the same feeling as a slotmachine where you are making constant gambles every time you open the box. That excitement is what makes gambling so addictive.

 

Even the argument that you werent getting real money out of it doest fully stand, an account with a type 59 can easily sell for multiples of what you payed for the boxes, especially if you get it quickly. I have heard from a lot of people that they bought just a few more boxes to maybe get a tank and this is exactly what makes gambling so bad, its the constant stream of "just a few more"

 


Edited by SirGruut, 19 April 2018 - 11:11 AM.


Mimos_A #17 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:11 AM

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View PostKozzy, on 19 April 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

 

Not sure I understand this part.  If someone is will to pay for something then by definition is has a 'value', no?

 

 

 

The difference is the economy around it. In WoT you can't sell a premium tank to another user. So there is no way to monetise what you get from the boxes. While they said these boxes are ehtically an issue that needs to be looked at, they're not breaking any regulation or law. The legal issues are with games that allow you to sell your items.

jabster #18 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:14 AM

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View PostKozzy, on 19 April 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

 

Not sure I understand this part.  If someone is will to pay for something then by definition is has a 'value', no?

 

 

As I say I’m no expert in U.K. gambling law (or the games that have been mentioned) but my understanding is that as there’s no real economy (for that read you can’t easily sell on an item that is within a loot box) they are therefore considered to have zero real value and that means they don’t fall under gambling laws.



kaneloon #19 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:16 AM

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League of Legend provide such boxes too.

 

I still cannot see how pushing players to buy boxes to get a Type 59 randomly is NOT gambling ... as long as it motivates the act of buying more boxes : it is gambling.

 

The fact that you get something else with some value (but you didn't intend to buy) could be seen as more bait.

 



Axelfoley666 #20 Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:16 AM

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View PostExcavatus, on 19 April 2018 - 09:44 AM, said:

 


 

 

 

That's not fair. I got a warning point for my Goat threads, Hmm, perhaps I should have used sheep instead.




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