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Panther 1's turret


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RetroCh1cken #1 Posted 23 April 2018 - 08:20 AM

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So I've realized that the panthers 1's ''starter turret'' is the turret which is the actual panther 1's turret, and the ''research turret'' for panther 1 is the real turret used for panther 2, how come? Shouldn't panther 1's starter turret be the research turret?

Edited by RetroCh1cken, 23 April 2018 - 08:25 AM.


Anhaedra #2 Posted 23 April 2018 - 08:30 AM

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Insane problem. :( I really cant give any real advice how to get over it.

magkiln #3 Posted 23 April 2018 - 08:38 AM

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Are you trying to bring realism into this? Because that's not exactly WoT's strength.

In any case, the Schmallturm is  better than the Panther production turret (at least on paper), so it's the one you need to research. For what you suggest they'd need to introduce a third turret to be the standard on the Panther.

They could start the Panther with the turret of the VK3001D, then have you research the production turret. But then the question becomes, where to put that L100 gun that only existed in Hitler's compensation dreams.  It would look even dumber on the Panther production turret than on the Schmallturm. So, should the Panther have 3 possible turrets  (start -> production -> schmallturm)? That would make the grind even longer, and it's boring enough as it is.



Hedgehog1963 #4 Posted 23 April 2018 - 08:47 AM

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View PostRetroCh1cken, on 23 April 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

So I've realized that the panthers 1's ''starter turret'' is the turret which is the actual panther 1's turret, and the ''research turret'' for panther 1 is the real turret used for panther 2, how come? Shouldn't panther 1's starter turret be the research turret?

 

When I last learned maths, 2 followed 1 so no.

RetroCh1cken #5 Posted 23 April 2018 - 09:35 AM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 23 April 2018 - 07:47 AM, said:

 

When I last learned maths, 2 followed 1 so no.

When I last checked math and tanks are a bit different, we are talking about 2 different tanks, panther 1 is an iconic ww2 German tank so it seems so wrong to force users to downgrade their tank if they want the real look on the panther 1. It just looks so wrong to see the panther 1 with panther 2 turret, it honestly just looks like a hybrid tank.

 

 



Alex_Connor #6 Posted 23 April 2018 - 09:47 AM

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You could just drive the VK 30.02 M if you want a real Panther, honestly no idea why they don't rename that tank to Panther Ausf D and then have either the Panther 2 or an experimental (current) Panther I at tier 7.

Hedgehog1963 #7 Posted 23 April 2018 - 09:55 AM

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View PostRetroCh1cken, on 23 April 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

When I last checked math and tanks are a bit different, we are talking about 2 different tanks, panther 1 is an iconic ww2 German tank so it seems so wrong to force users to downgrade their tank if they want the real look on the panther 1. It just looks so wrong to see the panther 1 with panther 2 turret, it honestly just looks like a hybrid tank.

 

 

 

When a tank series has the number in the name of each tank, maths is relevant. The Panther II is a tier higher than the Panther I which makes it a better tank, II being bigger than I.  Needn't always work that way but here it does, just as Tier VIII is greater than VII.  The "prototype Panther II turret"   I understand to have been a possible upgrade to the Panther had the war gone on longer; is available for those Panther I players who choose to use it.

 

Not taking the upgrade isn't downgrading. You're not "forced" to use it.  Even if the upgraded turret is in the line to the next tank up you would only need to mount it on some tanks where the biggest gun required it. I don't have the Panther I anymore so I can't check whether the basic turret takes the 105.

 

As for what the tanks looks like, well this game is full of tanks that never even existed.  The Tigers I and II don't look  like they did IRL because they never had guns that long. 

 

You've come with a complaint but offer no solution.  Classic example of a non problem raised on the forum.



hasnainrakha57 #8 Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:03 AM

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agreer panthers were also famous like tiger but the research turret looks bad they should swap it with stock turret.In real also they had stock turret

Edited by hasnainrakha57, 23 April 2018 - 10:04 AM.


RetroCh1cken #9 Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:43 AM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 23 April 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

As for what the tanks looks like, well this game is full of tanks that never even existed.  The Tigers I and II don't look  like they did IRL because they never had guns that long. 

 

You've come with a complaint but offer no solution.  Classic example of a non problem raised on the forum.

 

First, if you read my post you could see that I wrote it as a question, not a complaint, I wondered why they did it and if there was any cause for it.

 

Second, have you seen a Tiger I with a Tiger 2 turret? No? Have ever seen seen a IS-2 with a IS-3 turret? No? Have you maybe seen a Panzer III with a Panzer IV turret? No? Well if you look at the tank history it's for what I know quite rare to see an older tank with it's successor's turret in ww2. 

 

Third, I don't really think a lot of people care about the guns length (If it isn't too much of a difference) but we are talking about replacing a turret with a turret with no similarities. I mean if I didn't know anything about tanks I someone walked up to me and showed me a picture of the Panther I with the stock turret and a Panther I with the Panther II turret I would have thought it was 2 completely different tanks. If someone showed me 2 different pictures of the same tank with just a different gun length I would still atleast know it was the same tank.

 

Fourth, you wanted a solution well I can give a quite simple one, make the Panther I turret the one you research and have the stock one be a prototype turret of the Panther I's turret.

 



PeaceWalker1 #10 Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:56 AM

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http://forum.worldof...s-field-garage/

 

There should be a remodel in here that gives the Panther its original model back, even while playing with the second turret 



Hedgehog1963 #11 Posted 23 April 2018 - 11:09 AM

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View PostRetroCh1cken, on 23 April 2018 - 09:43 AM, said:

 

First, if you read my post you could see that I wrote it as a question, not a complaint, I wondered why they did it and if there was any cause for it.

 

Second, have you seen a Tiger I with a Tiger 2 turret? No? Have ever seen seen a IS-2 with a IS-3 turret? No? Have you maybe seen a Panzer III with a Panzer IV turret? No? Well if you look at the tank history it's for what I know quite rare to see an older tank with it's successor's turret in ww2. 

 

Third, I don't really think a lot of people care about the guns length (If it isn't too much of a difference) but we are talking about replacing a turret with a turret with no similarities. I mean if I didn't know anything about tanks I someone walked up to me and showed me a picture of the Panther I with the stock turret and a Panther I with the Panther II turret I would have thought it was 2 completely different tanks. If someone showed me 2 different pictures of the same tank with just a different gun length I would still atleast know it was the same tank.

 

Fourth, you wanted a solution well I can give a quite simple one, make the Panther I turret the one you research and have the stock one be a prototype turret of the Panther I's turret.

 

 

Was there ever a prototype Panther I turret that wasn't the Panther I turret?  Even on paper?

Edited by Hedgehog1963, 23 April 2018 - 11:10 AM.


TungstenHitman #12 Posted 23 April 2018 - 11:27 AM

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Agreed, though I said something of sorts several times already. The Panthers stock turret is clearly the later model turret and should therefore be the top turret. Why is this? The secret is in the turret mantlet, early-mid production Panthers had that 180 degree half barrel shaped mantlet and since the Panther was near impenetrable frontally to the wimpy short barrel Shermans and also by Cromwells etc, allied tankers learned a way to knock out Panthers frontally by shooting the lower section of that gun mantlet which would, with it's perfectly rounded 90 degree curve, deflect the otherwise useless shot downward and through the upper deck of the hull killing some crew and causing mayhem. The Germans rectified this design flaw by simply adding a flat section of armor to the lower part of that mantlet which therefore no longer deflected shots downward and the Shermans etc could do nothing about it other than try to get it's sides or hopefully, have a long barrel Firefly or a TD with them.

 

So if you look at the Panthers stock turret, you will see this flat lower plate armor on it's mantlet, this is the later mantlet and so this should be the top turret and the stock turret should have a curved lower mantlet exactly the same as the tier6 VK(M). 

 

In regards to the game, if it the Panther was to be more periodically accurate and also translate into a better representation of this truly lethal and successful tank then it should be tier6 and not 7. The VK(M) should be the Panther(which it is tbh) since at tier6, it would make logical sense to be equal tier with the T-34-85 and the second generation of Shermans as that would have been active in or around that timeframe. The Panther would have started production to defeat early varient Soviet tanks such as the T-34-76 and KV1 which they struggled to compete with the Panzer3 and 4 early on so these are tier5 tanks which would make the Panther at tier6 logical as it would have been superior to early Shermans and early T-34 and the KV1 at that stage. The T-34-85 was the upgraded turret and gun later on along with the Firefly Sherman, easy8 etc which makes them as tier6 logical too but the Panther at tier7 does not makes sense at all. So making the VK(M)the Panther is about right and the 135 dmg is barely acceptable at tier6 but laughable at tier7. 

 

To put that 135 dmg at tier7 into perspective, I'm almost sure that is the worst single shot alpha of any tier6 medium, most average around 150, the T34-85 hits for 180 and has a 300 HE while the VK(P) hits for 220 dmg, so this tank at tier7 is utterly pathetic along with it's "it existed in blueprints" top turret. It would be easy for WG to rectify this, make the Panther2 a tier7 and add new tank that this German line so badly needs at tier8. Now if you've read all that, you are a better man that I.



RetroCh1cken #13 Posted 23 April 2018 - 11:39 AM

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View PostPeaceWalker1, on 23 April 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

http://forum.worldof...s-field-garage/

 

There should be a remodel in here that gives the Panther its original model back, even while playing with the second turret 

Ah, thanks a lot! Can finally play the Panther without downgrading it.

 

View PostHedgehog1963, on 23 April 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

 

Was there ever a prototype Panther I turret that wasn't the Panther I turret?  Even on paper?

The VK 30.02 (M) had an eariler version of the Panther I's turret but in later designs they improved some flaws.

 

So the solution I could give you is that the Panther I could start with the VK 30.02 (M)'s turret which may not be a prototype turret but it would still work and you could later research the improved Panther turret.  



SuperDuperOtter #14 Posted 23 April 2018 - 11:43 AM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 23 April 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

 

Was there ever a prototype Panther I turret that wasn't the Panther I turret?  Even on paper?

 

Yes. The one on the VK 30.02 M. Which is a Panther I prototype.

 

But there isn't a need to go for a prototype turret. The Panther I has had 2 production turrets in its production life. The first one was pretty much the same as the VK 30.02 M. The Second one was the stock one. The most distinctive difference is the gun mantlet. The 2nd turret had the lower part flatened to remove a shot-trap.

 

Pic for reference : 

 

Spoiler

 



jabster #15 Posted 23 April 2018 - 12:07 PM

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View PostRetroCh1cken, on 23 April 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

So I've realized that the panthers 1's ''starter turret'' is the turret which is the actual panther 1's turret, and the ''research turret'' for panther 1 is the real turret used for panther 2, how come? Shouldn't panther 1's starter turret be the research turret?

 

Basically because WG uses prototypes, what-ifs and fantasy to try and balance tanks. There was a proposed design, and I think some prototypes, of the type of turret that is researchable.



TungstenHitman #16 Posted 23 April 2018 - 02:11 PM

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View Postjabster, on 23 April 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

 

Basically because WG uses prototypes, what-ifs and fantasy to try and balance tanks. There was a proposed design, and I think some prototypes, of the type of turret that is researchable.

 

I particularly like WG's inclusion and creative licencing when it came to the Japanese heavies which were little more than a baby school sketch of a box tank on a snot covered hanky with crayons while no doubt completely blind drunk on sake as he witnessed the end of his countries futile efforts at resisting a lost war. 

jabster #17 Posted 23 April 2018 - 02:19 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 23 April 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

 

I particularly like WG's inclusion and creative licencing when it came to the Japanese heavies which were little more than a baby school sketch of a box tank on a snot covered hanky with crayons while no doubt completely blind drunk on sake as he witnessed the end of his countries futile efforts at resisting a lost war. 

 

True but the top turret on the Panther is hardly a stretch and of course what would be made better if WG used the two production turrets?

TungstenHitman #18 Posted 23 April 2018 - 02:28 PM

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View Postjabster, on 23 April 2018 - 01:19 PM, said:

 

True but the top turret on the Panther is hardly a stretch and of course what would be made better if WG used the two production turrets?

 

Well visually it would be made better by having the iconic Panther look we all know so well. Put it this way, I'm almost certain there are alternative Turret designs sketched out somewhere for consideration by German tank designers for the Tiger1, now how bad would that look if it had a top turret that was nothing like what we know and love? True for any tank I'm sure, no doubt they all had alternative turret design options as demands increased and guns got bigger or upgraded etc. There are tanks in this game that get no obvious visual change with a turret upgrade and is merely used as a grind hurdle with some extra view range or hp attached to it etc, nothing else. 

 

Edit- and of course it would be made better by way of the fact the Panther ran with production of the round mantlet turret and actually did get an upgrade to a flat mantlet, so this actually happened, makes sense therefore.


Edited by TungstenHitman, 23 April 2018 - 02:30 PM.


jabster #19 Posted 23 April 2018 - 02:37 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 23 April 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

 

Well visually it would be made better by having the iconic Panther look we all know so well. Put it this way, I'm almost certain there are alternative Turret designs sketched out somewhere for consideration by German tank designers for the Tiger1, now how bad would that look if it had a top turret that was nothing like what we know and love? True for any tank I'm sure, no doubt they all had alternative turret design options as demands increased and guns got bigger or upgraded etc. There are tanks in this game that get no obvious visual change with a turret upgrade and is merely used as a grind hurdle with some extra view range or hp attached to it etc, nothing else. 

 

Edit- and of course it would be made better by way of the fact the Panther ran with production of the round mantlet turret and actually did get an upgrade to a flat mantlet, so this actually happened, makes sense therefore.

 

Well not really. It was a proposed upgrade, and I’m pretty sure some prototypes were built, so it wasn’t just a sketch. Secondly, and as I’ve already said, what you’re proposing is basically a downgrade for the top turret unless you want its historical characteristic changed. That would somewhat defeat the point wouldn’t it?

 

If you just want a better turret that looks like a real one then there’s no real point in bringing history into it. 


Edited by jabster, 23 April 2018 - 02:40 PM.


TungstenHitman #20 Posted 23 April 2018 - 02:43 PM

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View Postjabster, on 23 April 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

 

Well not really. It was a proposed upgrade, and I’m pretty sure some prototypes were built, so it wasn’t just a sketch. Secondly, and as I’ve already said, what you’re proposing is basically a downgrade for the top turret unless you want its historical characteristic changed. That would somewhat defeat the point wouldn’t it?

 

If you just want a better turret that looks like a real one then there’s no real point in bringing history into it. 

 

But it wouldn't be a downgrade. The current "stock" turret is actually the upgraded turret, this is what it actually looked like. The initial Panther turret was much the same apart from the mantlet. So far as the game goes nothing else would change obviously, just the visual, all stats stay the same, no biggy. With the gain of having a Panther we can play that actually looks like a Panther even when fully upgraded. 




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