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proposing an expasion of the italian tech tree

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CamperKaempfer #1 Posted 29 April 2018 - 05:38 PM

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note 1:

most of this is low-tier stuff meant to provide some historical context to the new tech tree

 

note 2:

i'm proposing unhistorical modules for some of these tanks. sometimes they're in accordance with the unhistorical layout of related italian tanks already introduced in the test server, i will add a note either way whenever it's the case

 

note 3:

i'd appreciate if you to told me your opinions and correct me wherever i'm wrong. i'm not double checking everything i'm writing down and i won't be surprised if several details are incorrect. you're welcome to correct any, no matter how trivial, and share your doubts and own ideas.

also, i'm in no way criticizing the current tech tree. this is just a fan-made expansion and not even a rework, although, if actually implemented, it would make sense that some of the high tier mediums get swapped over between the proposed and the already existing lines.

 

overview:

-addition tier 9 and 10 autoloading or autoreloading mediums that actually existed.

-addition of a tier 8 medium based on on WWII blueprints

-continuation of the light tank line, which currently stops at tier 2, up to either tier 4 or 5 (possibly with autoreloaders)

-addition of a unique turretless light tank mini line, up to tier 3 or 4.

-addition of a tank destroyer tine up to tier 6 or 7. (i'm wondering if it would be unorthodox to have it lead to medium tanks at tier 8)

-addition of tier 9 and 10 light tanks and a tier 10 medium tank from the early 80's which is beyond wargaming's 1970 time frame limit but maybe the tanks themselves aren't too technologically advanced for the game.

-at least one tier 2 or 3 premium for each type of vehicle

 

fun fact 1:

the italian tier 8 already in the game is almost entirely fictional. italy did have plans to license-build the panther but in hte end settled for just copying the engine which was to be used by certain variants of the p.43. to be completely honest i can't rule out that plans were made to mount a p.43 turret on the license-produced chassis of a panther and equip it with a 90/74 gun which wouldn't even fit, and that the whole project was revived in the 60's and planned to be equipped with an autoloader, but i do find it quite unlikely, especially the autoloader. the 1000hp engine is also strange, since much of the point in license-producing the panther was to get access the 700 hp maybach engine.

 

fun fact 2:

while italy did participate in the standardpanzer program, the italian tier 9 (prototype standard B) was proposed by the german company rheinmetall and has nothing to do with italy

 

MEDIUMS (from tier 8 to tier 10)

 

OTO-MELARA M47 PATTON, tier 9

 

the italian firms fiat and oto-melara license-built the american m47 patton (which is absent from the american tech tree in the game) and their army was equipped with the second highest number of this model (2480) after, of course, the usa.

oto-melara designed a belt-fed autoloader for the tank's 105mm gun. whether it could work as an autoreloader in world of tanks, i can't say, since the autoreloader shown in wg's video about the progetto 46 looks quite different and explains why the emptier the rack is, the more time a shell takes to reload, having to travel across empty slots.

the only other difference from the original m47 patton in terms of gameplay is a different engine by fiat. visually there are some very slight differences about hatches, i remember correctly.

if these differences aren't enough, you could see the italian m47 in a similar light as the is-2: the italian tech tree could give the vehicle a chance to make it in the game, similarly to how the is-2, superfluous to the soviets, is welcomed by china.

 

LION, tier 10

 

a license-produced version of the leopard-1 meant for export to middles eastern countries with minor differences, among which some kind of swiss suspensions and air conditioning to make it suitable for operation in a hot climate.

visually it would differ from the leopard by having side skirts and a welded, edgy turret.

what matters is that it can mount the same belt-fed autoloader oto-melara designed designed for the leopard, which italy had already adopted for service. whether it could work in the game as an autoreloader, again, i can't say. pretty sure it wouldn't be one in real life.

 

P.43 QUATER, tier 8

one of the developments of the .43 project, mounting an 850hp aircraft engine. other than that the hull would be that of a p-43 ter and the turret and armament those of the p.44 pantera. i suppose it could feature the same autoreloader that the pantera has.

 

LIGHT TANKS (from tier 3 to tier 5)

 

INTRODUCTION AND SOME HISTORY

 

the main purpose of this line is to give the carro medio celere sahariano aka fiat m16/43 a chance to appear in the game. since we already have a separate tier 2 light tank, we don't need to create a new line in order to do so.

the fiat L6/40 already occupies tier 2 and the sahariano, with 17.19hp/t, 42mm of effective frontal protection, 70mm of penetration and more than 1800 dpm should be a tier 4. so what do we put at tier 3? another sahariano designed by ansaldo contemporarily to fiat's more famous sahariano.
both designs arose from the request by the army to manufacture a fast tank to be used in africa against the british.
fiat reverse-engineered a captured british crusader and built a low-profile prototype with christie suspensions and a flat 275hp engine similar to the crusader's while ansaldo built a wooden mock-up, on a fiat m13/40, of what was meant to be be nothing more than an m13/40, or m14/41, sporting the same engine and gun as fiat's prototype, with a widened hull to house the former and a sloped armour glacis at the front which gives it very similar looks to the p.26/40.

although fiat's prototype proved successful, after the loss of the african colonies, whence the perceived end of the need for a fast tank, and the weakening of the italian industry as a result of allied bombing, the project was cancelled to give priority to the development hte p.40. the m15/42 was introduced as a stop-gap and given the gun developed for the sahariani.

there were plans to upgrade fiat's original design so it could mount a 75mm gun, probably the same 75/34 gun of the p.40. a larger turret was needed but, as far as i know, no designs for it are known to exist. maybe either of the p.40 turrets could do the trick.

 

note: all three of these were conceived as medium tanks, but their weight would have them classified as lights by other nation's standards, the same way the p.40 is a medium in the game even though it was intended as a heavy by the italian army.

 

FIRST PROPOSAL

 

ansaldo's design, very similar to the in-game m15/42 (because of the unhistorical 250hp engine the latter gets), would sit at tier 3.

fiat's prototype, with its specific power of 17,19hp/tand 47mm gun would sit at tier 4.

its planned upgrade, with the 75mm gun the (not actually panned for this vehicle) 400hp (or historically accurate 420hp) engine as the p.40, could be a tier 5 light tank under the name fiat m16/43 which is the name it would've presumably been given upon entering production if development hadn't been stopped.

nevertheless i think this tier 5 is as unfeasible as its unnecessary. with 4 light tanks we've already matched the japanese light line and there are many problems with the tier 5

first off i don't know whether the p.40 turret would fit in the sahariano's turret ring, and, if not, what turret to pick, since there seems to be no others. another problem is hte bad specific power. the actual prototype of the sahariano weighed 16 tons. with a 400hp engine it would have a 25 power-to-weight ratio (without counting the negligible added weight of the bigger engine), which is perfectly adequate for a tier 5 light, but the new turret and gun would probably lower it to unsuitable levels. giving the engine its historical 420hp wouldn't mitigate the problem by 5%. given the we don't need the line to end at tier 5 rather than tier 4 i think introducing the sahariano's upgrade isn't worth the many tweaks and historical inaccuracies it would need.

 

note: there are many ways to balance ansaldo's design at tier 3 but if we want to make a light tank out of it, it should probably be lighter and therefore have lighter armour than its medium counterpart (the planned armour thickness is probably unknown, so there's no problem with that). that, coupled with the slightly better engine power (275hp instead of 250), would make it faster. if the tank is too good as a result of this it could be limited to the stock turret, restricting its dpm.

 

SECOND PROPOSAL (my favourite)

 

my second idea for light tanks consists in dispensing with the m16/43 armed with a 75mm and moving the preceding two up a tier, which, in order to remain competitive, would mount the p.40's 400hp engine and autoloading caproni 47mm antiaircraft guns.

this leaves a gap at tier 3 which would be filled by a turretless light tank, which the turretless light tank line would merge into (more on that later)

all of the caproni 47mm gun have 4 shells in their magazine and as far as i'm concerned they might as well work as autoreloaders.

these guns were considered for an antitank role but i haven't found any sources about plans to use them as tank guns, so it's likely that the only historical basis for having them appear as such in the game is their capability of fitting in italian turrets.

unfortunately information about these in the internet is scarce even in italian, but if what i've gathered is correct, several 47mm autoloading guns were designed, from as little as 32 to as much as 48 calibers in length. the penetration of the 32 calibers long model was similar to that of the standard italian 47mm L32 of the same length but i'm not confident the 48 calibers variant kept up with the 47mm L40, given the latter wasn't just longer than its predecessor, but also fired bigger cartridges with higher propellant charges. nevertheless we need to consider that world of tank's penetration values tend to jettison realism for the sake of balance.

all german 5cm guns are underpowered and the super long 90mm of the super pershing has the same penetration as the much shorter 90mm on the other tier 8 american mediums and, to give an example that concerns us more, the covenanter's 2-pounder was slightly inferior to the italian 47mm L32, and therefore much inferior to the 47mm L40, but in world of tanks it gets 75mm of penetration, while the 47mm L40 only gets 70mm.

considering this i don't see why the the caproni 47mm L48 shouldn't get a respectably 85-95mm of penetration, no matter how arbitrary this would be, which would be enough in a tier 5 light tank with a specific power exactly 25hp/t (400hp/16t), and possibly not even unrealistic, since, given that they were primarily intended for an antiaircraft role, high muzzle velocities were probably a must.

 

note 1: both proposals don't add a new line to the tree as much as they continue the line started by the L6/40 already in the common test. they wouldn't make the italian medium more messy or disorderly, they would simply make it resemble more the japanese medium line, featuring a light-tank appendix merging into it at tier 5 (or 6).

 

note 2: the 47mm guns weren't the only autoloading guns developed by italy during WWII. a prototype of an autoloading antiaircraft 75/34 was also made, as well as an autoloading version of a 65mm naval gun, still to be used against aircraft

 

 

turretless and high-tier lights and tank destroyers in part 2. please tell me what you think of the expansion so far and whether you have different ideas

 

pictures: the first two picture are side views of fiat's sahariano prototype and ansaldo's mock up respectively. the last two pictures are 3/4 views of the same tanks respectively

Attached Files

  • Attached File   sahariano1.jpg   10.38K
  • Attached File   sahariano2.jpg   5.98K
  • Attached File   sahariano3.jpg   6.88K
  • Attached File   sahariano4.jpg   8.47K

Edited by CamperKaempfer, 29 April 2018 - 07:25 PM.


Bulldog_Drummond #2 Posted 29 April 2018 - 05:45 PM

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I suppose that the problem with this stuff is that in reality all Italian tanks were laughable, all mobile coffins, useful at best for machine-gunning African natives armed with spears.

 

One can only admire the courage of those who set foot in them.



CamperKaempfer #3 Posted 29 April 2018 - 05:50 PM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 29 April 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

I suppose that the problem with this stuff is that in reality all Italian tanks were laughable, all mobile coffins, useful at best for machine-gunning African natives armed with spears.

 

One can only admire the courage of those who set foot in them.

 

i fail to see the problem. they're not doing that badly in the test server. players don't seem to be affected by how they performed in reality.

Bulldog_Drummond #4 Posted 29 April 2018 - 05:59 PM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 29 April 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

 

i fail to see the problem. they're not doing that badly in the test server. players don't seem to be affected by how they performed in reality.

 

That would seem indubitable.



Bordhaw #5 Posted 29 April 2018 - 06:42 PM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 29 April 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

also, i'm in no way criticizing the current tech tree. this is just a fan-made expansion and not even a rework, although, if actually implemented, it would make sense that some of the 

 

:sceptic:



CamperKaempfer #6 Posted 29 April 2018 - 07:14 PM

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View PostBordhaw, on 29 April 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

 

:sceptic:

 

...high tier mediums get swapped over between the proposed and the already existing lines.

this means that it would make better sense if the p.44 pantera led to the prototype B and the the prototype B led to the lion. the p.43 quater should lead to the m47 which should lead to the progetto 65. so the two lines might have their tanks moved from one another if the high tier mediums i'm proposing where introduced


Edited by CamperKaempfer, 29 April 2018 - 07:22 PM.


Erwin_Chan #7 Posted 13 July 2018 - 07:00 PM

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I would like to have aditional "mini tree" of Italian tank destroyers, starting on lets say tier5 P43 where you could unlock these TDs, up to tier 6, 7 maybe. I am talking ofc about mini line of Semovente with their various guns, and for game balance they could even up gun them just like Tiger I and Tiger II are upgunned. Mini line would work just like its now french heavies, where you can go from amx 45 to paper autoloaders or brawling heavies, or Tiger P where you can go to I think its now 3 different lines? Only difference would be that this mini line would end on that tier6,7. I don't think that line not ending on tier10 would be problem because tier10 is far from the most played tier on public.





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