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Chasing enemy tail is a losing move

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TheOnlyMagician #1 Posted 30 April 2018 - 06:43 PM

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http://wotreplays.eu/site/4330909

 

A replay to learn from especially for newbies and rookies in this game, those old players too who are new to how to deal with enemy train.
 

Enemy goes down west side and some TDs camp in their base ( who slaughter our "bats" pushing blindly seeing that a flank is all open), 

we split on both side, our tiger II went roaring in front and got [edited]kicked before he realised.

If my team would cover own base instead of running away we might have had a chance.

All need to learn to come back to base almost everytime.

Most of the cases there are going to be dummbs, who will although push hard on 1 flank but will push to base only and be a sitting duck in the cap.

if you dont come back, then enemy('s with brain) push beyond the base and

ducks fly away. 

 



HassenderZerhacker #2 Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:10 PM

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WoT teams can't do strategy, because the goal of the game is not to win, it's to get a good battle result, i.e. damage (for WN8 and XP) + win.

 

consequence: when team does a train, slow tanks are fucked, so they rush to desperately get some damage in.

 

the game rewards good tactics with poor strategy (i.e. winning a bloodbath).

 

the WORST possible result for a player is a win where he didn't achieve a good score because it wastes his daily win bonus.

 

but from a realistic strategy standpoint, the highest reward should be given in battles where objectives were achieved with as little received damage as possible. logically, the game should award the highest possible XP scores to a victory by capping where not a single shot was fired by either team.

 

this isn't a team game, it's a solo player game 1 against 29, sometimes you can bring up to 2 friends to help achieve the win, but it's still 1 vs. 29.



unhappy_bunny #3 Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:38 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 30 April 2018 - 07:10 PM, said:

WoT teams can't do strategy, because the goal of the game is not to win, it's to get a good battle result, i.e. damage (for WN8 and XP) + win.

 

consequence: when team does a train, slow tanks are fucked, so they rush to desperately get some damage in.

 

the game rewards good tactics with poor strategy (i.e. winning a bloodbath).

 

the WORST possible result for a player is a win where he didn't achieve a good score because it wastes his daily win bonus.

 

but from a realistic strategy standpoint, the highest reward should be given in battles where objectives were achieved with as little received damage as possible. logically, the game should award the highest possible XP scores to a victory by capping where not a single shot was fired by either team.

 

this isn't a team game, it's a solo player game 1 against 29, sometimes you can bring up to 2 friends to help achieve the win, but it's still 1 vs. 29.

 

While a lot of what you have written is true, I often wonder if this is a form of self-fullfilling prophecy. 

So many threads and post seem to concentrate of the importance of dmg, and of raising WN8 and the like, rather than encouraging players to play for the win. A win seems to be a secondary consideration these days, only important if the first win of the day coincides with a large amount of dmg. 

We tend to see more LT players going for dmg rather than helping the team to a win, and the reason they seem to give is that only dmg matters as spotting etc doesnt help with WN8. So they go for quick dmg and an early demise, and then blame the rest of the team, whom they left blind, for not winning. 

I hope I am wrong, but that is my impression of the current game and the forum. 



HassenderZerhacker #4 Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:46 PM

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View Postunhappy_bunny, on 30 April 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

 

While a lot of what you have written is true, I often wonder if this is a form of self-fullfilling prophecy. 

So many threads and post seem to concentrate of the importance of dmg, and of raising WN8 and the like, rather than encouraging players to play for the win. A win seems to be a secondary consideration these days, only important if the first win of the day coincides with a large amount of dmg. 

We tend to see more LT players going for dmg rather than helping the team to a win, and the reason they seem to give is that only dmg matters as spotting etc doesnt help with WN8. So they go for quick dmg and an early demise, and then blame the rest of the team, whom they left blind, for not winning. 

I hope I am wrong, but that is my impression of the current game and the forum. 

 

you are completely right.

the root cause is battle statistics systems giving too much importance to damage over winrate (but can they do it differently?? I don't see how - how do you award points to people who prevent something from happening in battle?), and ultimately, the absence of a committed battle strategy, unlike in clan battles.

but this can't be achieved in randoms, due to language barriers, intelligence barriers and sociopathic tendencies.

 

also, the game itself does not reward individual contribution well, for example, if in a team of two players one did the damage and the other one kept watching his back so that the first player doesn't get flanked... If no one comes to flank him, the second player will come out empty handed inspite of having fulfilled a crucial role.


Edited by HassenderZerhacker, 30 April 2018 - 07:47 PM.


Rati_Festa #5 Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:37 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 30 April 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

 

you are completely right.

the root cause is battle statistics systems giving too much importance to damage over winrate (but can they do it differently?? I don't see how - how do you award points to people who prevent something from happening in battle?), and ultimately, the absence of a committed battle strategy, unlike in clan battles.

but this can't be achieved in randoms, due to language barriers, intelligence barriers and sociopathic tendencies.

 

also, the game itself does not reward individual contribution well, for example, if in a team of two players one did the damage and the other one kept watching his back so that the first player doesn't get flanked... If no one comes to flank him, the second player will come out empty handed inspite of having fulfilled a crucial role.

Yes I agree with that. Wins should be far more relevant than dmg done, it currently promotes bad team play. The issue that wn8 isnt controlled by WG doesn't help matters imo.

 

What should happen is a win should have a far greater affect on wn8 and a lose have a negative. Then whatever happened in game doesnt matter ie defend a flank on your own or spotting all 3 arty... a win is a win. Lucky wins/unlucky loses would over time even out and you would see less redline campers and more people willing to assist team mates.


Edited by Rati_Festa, 30 April 2018 - 08:41 PM.


Erwin_Von_Braun #6 Posted 30 April 2018 - 09:34 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 30 April 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

WoT teams can't do strategy, because the goal of the game is not to win, it's to get a good battle result, i.e. damage (for WN8 & XP) + win.

 

consequence: when team does a train, slow tanks are fucked, so they rush to desperately get some damage in.

 

the game rewards good tactics with poor strategy (i.e. winning a bloodbath).

 

the WORST possible result for a player is a win where he didn't achieve a good score because it wastes his daily win bonus.

 

but from a realistic strategy standpoint, the highest reward should be given in battles where objectives were achieved with as little received damage as possible. logically, the game should award the highest possible XP scores to a victory by capping where not a single shot was fired by either team.

 

this isn't a team game, it's a solo player game 1 against 29, sometimes you can bring up to 2 friends to help achieve the win, but it's still 1 vs. 29.

 

But, but you don't care about numbers?

 



Enforcer1975 #7 Posted 30 April 2018 - 10:37 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 30 April 2018 - 07:10 PM, said:

WoT teams can't do strategy, because the goal of the game is not to win, it's to get a good battle result, i.e. damage (for WN8 and XP) + win.

 

consequence: when team does a train, slow tanks are fucked, so they rush to desperately get some damage in.

 

the game rewards good tactics with poor strategy (i.e. winning a bloodbath).

 

the WORST possible result for a player is a win where he didn't achieve a good score because it wastes his daily win bonus.

 

but from a realistic strategy standpoint, the highest reward should be given in battles where objectives were achieved with as little received damage as possible. logically, the game should award the highest possible XP scores to a victory by capping where not a single shot was fired by either team.

 

this isn't a team game, it's a solo player game 1 against 29, sometimes you can bring up to 2 friends to help achieve the win, but it's still 1 vs. 29.

 

I highly doubt that....from what i see there seems to be a contest on who dies first doing the least damage and the bonus is calculated by who is closest to the base when they do. So many games were lost only because a flank was totally left open / the ones at the flank camped as far behind as possible while the enemy took the empty flank and got sideshots at the other side without being shot at because the spotter(s) was/were even further back...

Flubber42 #8 Posted 30 April 2018 - 10:50 PM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 30 April 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

Yes I agree with that. Wins should be far more relevant than dmg done, it currently promotes bad team play. The issue that wn8 isnt controlled by WG doesn't help matters imo.

 

What should happen is a win should have a far greater affect on wn8 and a lose have a negative. Then whatever happened in game doesnt matter ie defend a flank on your own or spotting all 3 arty... a win is a win. Lucky wins/unlucky loses would over time even out and you would see less redline campers and more people willing to assist team mates.

 

 

I feel that capping should be better rewarded. Maybe by giving more XP to the whole team for a fast win (kill all or cap) and through that give a team incentive to cap early.



TheOnlyMagician #9 Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:13 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 30 April 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

 sociopathic tendencies.

 

THATS ME!!!



TheOnlyMagician #10 Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:21 PM

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The solution could be completely casting out WN8s and WN7s by community itself + blocking total outside access to game stats (needs to be done by WG), this was a problem in most of the multiplayer games I played (always f2p). For eg. in Ghost recon online, the matchmaker would show ranks of enemy and teammates before the match started resulting in most of the new & old (who gave up before it started) leaving the match. 
They tackled it by just not displaying the stats/ranks.

 

But If this is done, all the WN8 UNICORNS will be slaughtered, their horns will be a thing of the past, so i guess abolition will not be accepted widely, and we will never see a team play in WOT.



HassenderZerhacker #11 Posted 03 May 2018 - 08:01 PM

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View PostTheOnlyMagician, on 03 May 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

The solution could be completely casting out WN8s and WN7s by community itself + blocking total outside access to game stats (needs to be done by WG), this was a problem in most of the multiplayer games I played (always f2p). For eg. in Ghost recon online, the matchmaker would show ranks of enemy and teammates before the match started resulting in most of the new & old (who gave up before it started) leaving the match. 
They tackled it by just not displaying the stats/ranks.

 

But If this is done, all the WN8 UNICORNS will be slaughtered, their horns will be a thing of the past, so i guess abolition will not be accepted widely, and we will never see a team play in WOT.

 

no, the WN8 stats are still only a symptom, not the problem itself.

 

the problem is how XP is calculated, which does reward damage and to lesser extend spotting, but it doesn't reward avoiding being spotted and avoiding being shot at, which in tactical terms are superior to doing damage - how could it ??

 

and then there is reward for capping - reward should be huge when tactically appropriate, but then you have the situations where the team tomatoes cap when the score is 10-4 thus effectively preventing the better players from getting more xp by dealing the remaining damage.



SuperOlsson #12 Posted 04 May 2018 - 06:26 AM

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Well, in short, higher damage done and more kills per game is heavily correlated to higher winrate, more defense points per game is slightly correlated to higher winrate. Cap points per game is not at all correlated to winrate, as can be read at math section of wotlabs forum, where pretty much all wn6/7/8/9-ratings were invented. That is the reason cap points isn't included in the wn-ratings, and if cap points doesn't help you win, and since there is no way of determining whether the team would lose otherwise or if it was a "no cap kill all"-game, I don't think it should be rewarded. (Add to the fact they are also easily padded).

 

Edit: By the way, "useful" capping, as in capping that actually decides the victory, indirectly awards more exp, as you get the victory multiplier you would otherwise not get.


Edited by SuperOlsson, 04 May 2018 - 06:33 AM.


jabster #13 Posted 04 May 2018 - 06:40 AM

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View PostSuperOlsson, on 04 May 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

 

Edit: By the way, "useful" capping, as in capping that actually decides the victory, indirectly awards more exp, as you get the victory multiplier you would otherwise not get.

 

I’d always assumed that there would be a correlation just that it would be a negative one. Partially because it’s far easier to lose a game  by capping at the wrong time than it is to win a game by capping at the right time and partially because more competitive players are likely to want to ‘chase’ damage if the game is already won.

DracheimFlug #14 Posted 04 May 2018 - 07:25 AM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 03 May 2018 - 08:01 PM, said:

 

no, the WN8 stats are still only a symptom, not the problem itself.

 

the problem is how XP is calculated, which does reward damage and to lesser extend spotting, but it doesn't reward avoiding being spotted and avoiding being shot at, which in tactical terms are superior to doing damage - how could it ??

 

and then there is reward for capping - reward should be huge when tactically appropriate, but then you have the situations where the team tomatoes cap when the score is 10-4 thus effectively preventing the better players from getting more xp by dealing the remaining damage.

 

If you avoid detection and avoid being shot at, you live longer and thus theoretically have more chances to do damage. If doing damage is not important then hiding in corners and hoping the other team wins before you are found would become the best strategy.

 

I am quite certain that capping is rewarded so lightly because it is considered unpopular or even 'unfair' to the rest of the team. Frankly successfully capping should give the highest rewards. You usually win with the fewest losses, and if it was the RL equivalent, you would potentially capture at least some of the remaining enemy tanks too. Strategic wins always trump tactical ones.



DracheimFlug #15 Posted 04 May 2018 - 07:27 AM

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View Postjabster, on 04 May 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

 

I’d always assumed that there would be a correlation just that it would be a negative one. Partially because it’s far easier to lose a game  by capping at the wrong time than it is to win a game by capping at the right time and partially because more competitive players are likely to want to ‘chase’ damage if the game is already won.

 

I think the key word that needs to be in there is 'successfully.' I don't think merely trying to cap counts for anything, does it? Nor should it.

jabster #16 Posted 04 May 2018 - 07:52 AM

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View PostDracheimFlug, on 04 May 2018 - 06:27 AM, said:

 

I think the key word that needs to be in there is 'successfully.' I don't think merely trying to cap counts for anything, does it? Nor should it.

 

To be honest I was taking it as read that it was successful.



HQ65 #17 Posted 04 May 2018 - 08:06 AM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 30 April 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

 

you are completely right.

the root cause is battle statistics systems giving too much importance to damage over winrate (but can they do it differently?? I don't see how - how do you award points to people who prevent something from happening in battle?), and ultimately, the absence of a committed battle strategy, unlike in clan battles.

but this can't be achieved in randoms, due to language barriers, intelligence barriers and sociopathic tendencies.

 

also, the game itself does not reward individual contribution well, for example, if in a team of two players one did the damage and the other one kept watching his back so that the first player doesn't get flanked... If no one comes to flank him, the second player will come out empty handed inspite of having fulfilled a crucial role.

 

I don't care about winrate....i don't care about stats...if I have a bad game then I say, damn I had a bad game...If I have a good game then I say damn, that was fun...win or lose...doesn't matter.

Bigtime_Alarm #18 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:27 AM

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Downloading WOT was bad move after that it is just RNG.

Simeon85 #19 Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:09 AM

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On most maps now, due the OP HD bushes and the OP base camping spots provided to the bots, progressing after winning a flank or brawl area is stupid, it'll often lose you the game.

 

Best thing to do now is win the flank, go back and clear up the other flank, then you should have enough of a numbers advantage to clear out the base camping bots despite their stupid advantages of OP map positions on the red line.

 

Aggressive and attacking play in this game is consistently getting punished and is become more and more pointless due to the poor map design.

 

Classic example is the new Erlenberg, both flanks have a spot to win near the middle (either castle or windmill) where pushing on from those positions is across a huge area of open ground and into an area on the red line that has concealment and hard cover, so you just get wrecked by campers. 






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