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Crew training for American TD's

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Babbet_1 #1 Posted 02 May 2018 - 11:26 PM

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A little advice please guys: I am just about to start my M8A1 crew on their 1st skill, with a view to moving them up to T67 in due course. Would it be best to start them all on concealment (and swap commander to 6th sense later) or start commander on recon, and rest on concealment? Or any better ideas?

Equipment wise, I am running with Bino's, Cammo Net and Rammer.

Would appreciate your input on this.

Many thanks, Babbet  :)



TungstenHitman #2 Posted 02 May 2018 - 11:48 PM

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You copy me including the equipment any questions? No ok very good.

 



undutchable80 #3 Posted 03 May 2018 - 07:23 AM

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All concealment and swap commander to 6th sense later is how I approach it. I have the same equipment layout, so I think you are on the right track. (Then again, I suck at TDs...:harp:)

250swb #4 Posted 03 May 2018 - 08:10 AM

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View PostBabbet_1, on 02 May 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

A little advice please guys: I am just about to start my M8A1 crew on their 1st skill, with a view to moving them up to T67 in due course. Would it be best to start them all on concealment (and swap commander to 6th sense later) or start commander on recon, and rest on concealment? Or any better ideas?

Equipment wise, I am running with Bino's, Cammo Net and Rammer.

Would appreciate your input on this.

Many thanks, Babbet  :)

 

 

For the M8A1 do what you are doing. When you get to 100% camo for all start the driver on 'Clutch breaking' to improve your turn rate and so compensate for your slow turret traverse, gunner on to 'snap shot', radio operator on to 'Situational Awareness', and of course reset your Commander for 'Sixth Sense' and start him again on camo. And yes, binos, camo net, and rammer.

 

The Hellcat in the post above has five crew so it isn't really relevant.


Edited by 250swb, 03 May 2018 - 08:12 AM.


Babbet_1 #5 Posted 04 May 2018 - 12:20 PM

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Thanks for the advice guys, it's much appreciated! Acting on consensus opinion, I have now got all crew started on cammo, and will change commander to SS in due course.

@TH - I will look at following your lead when I am a bit further up the tree - can't promise to emulate your standard of performance though, but I'll try! In the meantime, is there any particular reason you prefer GLD to cammo net?

:)



Gremlin182 #6 Posted 04 May 2018 - 12:48 PM

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Its an excellent little TD/scout kept it after I got the T67 and then kept both when I got the Hellcat and kept all 3 when I got the T28 prototype.

I have a small problem letting go ;)

 

Rammer Binoculars and camo net for me and because I couldn't get along with the 3 inch gun I stuck with the 57mm

 

re GLD, the gun I use has 1.7 aim time and since I am either sniping/spotting or close in circling a slow tank never bothered using one.

Might be useful if you use another gun

 


Edited by Gremlin182, 04 May 2018 - 12:51 PM.


TungstenHitman #7 Posted 04 May 2018 - 03:16 PM

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View PostBabbet_1, on 04 May 2018 - 11:20 AM, said:

 In the meantime, is there any particular reason you prefer GLD to cammo net?

:)

 

How do I keep this explanation short... I can't. Net only works when not moving, so, even with a crew with zero camo skill it seem like having a camo net is logical but it will not help even 1% when you are racing along and getting places, fact. Now, I would not even consider these 3 tanks as TDs tbh, they are fast interceptors that have a playstyle all about exploiting their amazing mobility and better than most same tier gun. When the crew has full camo skill, the amazing camo value is also to be exploited but their game imo is all about getting to places fast, spotting shooting, causing mayhem, upsetting the flow of enemy movements and reacting to flanks starting to struggle and saving them before this happens by killing tanks and saving teammates that were on the verge of dying, so the enemy lose a tank, you gain a tank effectively. They can also carry. 

 

So the GLD. Well like I said moving around will not be helped by net so whats the point? When you shoot you lose almost all camo values anyway even with a net. If you are playing the scout and not shooting, this is ok for a moment but all the while the enemy is closing in on your position and unlike a light tank, when you decide it's time to run away, as soon as you move your TD gets hit with much worse movement camo values, you get spotted immediately obviously, boom, you're dead, gg and rage at team.

 

So you are getting to places fast with these tanks and you are looking to use bush for cover instead, not sitting in the open with a camo net, stupid playstyle, never sit in the open ever and always be close to solid cover for when things go wrong. Then you are waiting in bush for a target with your binocs, you see one, you now pull back to make bush solid and you shoot unseen, is the net of any use here? no. However, as soon as you pull back to make bush solid and stop, the GLD kicks in and you start shooting with not 10% faster aim time, this is not how it works but 10% less bloom on your gun. This is important to remember, it is not faster aim time by way of the aiming circle closing quicker, it is not, it just does not bloom as big.

 

 These 3 tanks have fast aim times already yes BUT, and most importantly, their soft stats dispersion values are crap. For the tier 4 and 5 they shoot really fast and recoil like a mother fokker and this bloom is big, bigger than the gun can aim before your next shot is reloaded, in other words the gun shoots faster than it aims in effect. But since you are using solid bush, not moving and only using your turret your GLD is now stopping that recoiling aim bloom from being as bad along with all the other soft stats such as turret movement as you follow your target and the irregular movements of your hand on the mouse so it aims faster by not having to close as big an aiming circle and so your spread of shot dispersion is always tighter therefore your gun is always more accurate and the result you improve your chances of hitting your target and can exploit full dpm, missing fewer shots. With the tier6 HC and it's 90mm gun, the reload is much slower so you might think the GLD is definitely not needed, wrong, the HC has atrociously bad "soft stats" so even just turning your turret slightly with a HC causes big bloom. Also, don't take stated aim times as gospel, I have found them anything but true, I have often counted from zero to 3.5 seconds for aim times stated as under 2 seconds.


Edited by TungstenHitman, 04 May 2018 - 03:17 PM.


Radu_Korne #8 Posted 04 May 2018 - 03:33 PM

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In short: cammo net is useless if you know how to use bush mechanics & an activated cammo net doesn't mean you're a hidden ninja... take the GLD (btw I prefer rammer, binocs and optics but then again I sold the hellcat ages ago)

TungstenHitman #9 Posted 04 May 2018 - 03:55 PM

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View PostRadu_Korne, on 04 May 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

In short: cammo net is useless if you know how to use bush mechanics & an activated cammo net doesn't mean you're a hidden ninja... take the GLD (btw I prefer rammer, binocs and optics but then again I sold the hellcat ages ago)

 

Thank you, I lack the short answer option. For the HC using optics instead of GLD is also a very useful option with a decent crew and view skills since it actually has a pretty useful view range on it's turret unlike the tier 4 and 5. In fact, when I complete this crews current set of skills I will be resetting them to include BIA and with that vent like overall improvements including view range and gun handling etc, I will strongly consider optics at that point

Gremlin182 #10 Posted 04 May 2018 - 05:24 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 04 May 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

 

Thank you, I lack the short answer option. For the HC using optics instead of GLD is also a very useful option with a decent crew and view skills since it actually has a pretty useful view range on it's turret unlike the tier 4 and 5. In fact, when I complete this crews current set of skills I will be resetting them to include BIA and with that vent like overall improvements including view range and gun handling etc, I will strongly consider optics at that point

 

Fair point about GLD I do use one on the T67 so probably my reason for not having one on the M8a1 was probably just that I didn't have one spare.  Like the Camo net a GLD doesn't do anything till you stop moving but it is probably a better choice.

Time to experiment.



Babbet_1 #11 Posted 04 May 2018 - 05:24 PM

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Wow! Thank you so much TH for such a detailed answer to a question that (in my ignorance) I thought would warrant no more than a single sentence reply!

You certainly do make a convincing case for mounting GLD. Being "of a certain age" my own play style tends to be of the "try to stay hidden and snipe" variety - I lack the quick reactions and dexterity required for racing in, circling etc. That said, I do try to read the minimap, anticipate and move with the action. I use the 57mm gun, which I find a joy when fully aimed, but have to admit I tend to be too impatient with a target in view and consequently miss far more shots than I should. Anything that can help with that would be a big plus, so I will certainly think seriously about ditching the net in favour of GLD.

Thank you also RK for your endorsement of TH's advice.

Cheers, Babbet



250swb #12 Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:13 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 04 May 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

So you are getting to places fast with these tanks and you are looking to use bush for cover instead, not sitting in the open with a camo net, stupid playstyle, 

 

 

Seriously, your idea of playing with a camo net is to sit in the open.........................................:teethhappy:. Sometimes you can't make it up. Until the crew has full camo skills the OP should be using bushes combined with a cam net, but the option of sitting out in the open with a camo net whatever the skills are is just well, bizarre?



TungstenHitman #13 Posted 05 May 2018 - 12:20 AM

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View Post250swb, on 04 May 2018 - 09:13 PM, said:

 

Seriously, your idea of playing with a camo net is to sit in the open.........................................:teethhappy:. Sometimes you can't make it up.

 

So let me get this right. I have basically said from the start that a camo net should NEVER be used and that instead a player should both learn and exploit the bush mechanics in this game, making the bush their camo net... and that sitting out in the open and relying on their camo net to do the job a bush does better, is full tard mode imo.. especially since a camo net is complete and utterly pointless when you use a bush cover correctly... and what you took from all that was me endorsing both 1. the use of a camo net at all and 2. use it to sit out in the open like a dork.... you know what your own statement is enough laughable flak I don't even need to try add some punchy one liner tbh lol. Well done at kicking your own azz. Embarrassing but funny, keep em coming I love it.



Gremlin182 #14 Posted 05 May 2018 - 05:24 AM

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On TDs that can spend a fair bit of time stationary I would as a rule use a camo net and Binoculars especially after the TD view range nerf.

The M8a1 has better stationary camo than any tier 4 Light tank and on the move its not terrible, but its view range isnt great.

 

If you play the M8 always on the move a camo net is useless binoculars also not much use.

I guess I am just a light tanker at heart and I like to abuse camo and view range.

A lot of my tier 5 games have ended up with a completely invisible T67 sniping my heavy tanks to death.

 

 



250swb #15 Posted 05 May 2018 - 08:39 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 04 May 2018 - 11:20 PM, said:

 

. Embarrassing but funny, keep em coming I love it.

 

Knock. knock, is anybody at home? The OP has NO camo skills so pontificating about your ideal scenario can wait until he has a crew with camo, in the meantime he needs to find a way to play the tank effectively even if it means compromising slightly how he plays now. 



Babbet_1 #16 Posted 05 May 2018 - 12:08 PM

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Now now lads, I didn't intend to start an argument! From my perspective, you both seem to have made very valid points, and in an ideal world we would have one or two more equipment slots available - but again, perhaps that would make the game more unbalanced?

For the record, I have now got all crew training camo (20% or so at present). I do try to use bushes etc to best advantage, but aim time has been a bit of a problem, as I said previously. For that reason I have now dropped the camo net and mounted GLD - not played it yet, so don't know whether it will suit me better. Don't have SS at the moment, so camo advantage or otherwise, is a bit hard to judge (except when I start getting marmalized of course!) Anyway, if GLD doesn't work for me, I can always demount it for a few gold, and put the camo net back.

Thanks again for the input, B  :)

 



250swb #17 Posted 05 May 2018 - 09:22 PM

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View PostBabbet_1, on 05 May 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

Now now lads, I didn't intend to start an argument! 

 

But it happens, it has to.

 

I haven't got a bad record with my M8A1 and I have had a few crews through it so far, so not a bad crew trainer. But it is about playing the tank as it should be played and not try to make it into a scout or a faux medium tank just because a players preferences are somewhere else. I have never dropped the camo net on my M8A1 even after the crews got to three skills, and have 52 High Calibre and 10 Top Gun medals which for a tank that rarely finds itself top tier isn't so shabby. Do not try to make it a scout or a medium tank, keep it as a TD. 



Babbet_1 #18 Posted 09 May 2018 - 08:04 AM

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Ok, first impression after 8 games or so with GLD mounted is that aiming, and consequently hit rate, are definitely improved. Now hitting around 70 - 80%, whereas before it was something like 50 - 60%. Of course, over so few games that could just be rng working in my favour, but time will tell. As far as camo is concerned, as I said before, I find that difficult to judge without SS, but crew are piling on their camo skill now, so will soon, if not already, have made up for the loss of the net. Got spotted almost immediately on Province though, but not really surprising, as was the first time I'd seen it. Think it's going to take me a while to figure out what to do there - seems a peculiar map to me! 

Cheers, B  :)



Baldrickk #19 Posted 10 May 2018 - 10:50 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 04 May 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

 

How do I keep this explanation short... I can't. Net only works when not moving, so, even with a crew with zero camo skill it seem like having a camo net is logical but it will not help even 1% when you are racing along and getting places, fact. Now, I would not even consider these 3 tanks as TDs tbh, they are fast interceptors that have a playstyle all about exploiting their amazing mobility and better than most same tier gun. When the crew has full camo skill, the amazing camo value is also to be exploited but their game imo is all about getting to places fast, spotting shooting, causing mayhem, upsetting the flow of enemy movements and reacting to flanks starting to struggle and saving them before this happens by killing tanks and saving teammates that were on the verge of dying, so the enemy lose a tank, you gain a tank effectively. They can also carry. 

 

So the GLD. Well like I said moving around will not be helped by net so whats the point? When you shoot you lose almost all camo values anyway even with a net. If you are playing the scout and not shooting, this is ok for a moment but all the while the enemy is closing in on your position and unlike a light tank, when you decide it's time to run away, as soon as you move your TD gets hit with much worse movement camo values, you get spotted immediately obviously, boom, you're dead, gg and rage at team.

 

So you are getting to places fast with these tanks and you are looking to use bush for cover instead, not sitting in the open with a camo net, stupid playstyle, never sit in the open ever and always be close to solid cover for when things go wrong. Then you are waiting in bush for a target with your binocs, you see one, you now pull back to make bush solid and you shoot unseen, is the net of any use here? no. However, as soon as you pull back to make bush solid and stop, the GLD kicks in and you start shooting with not 10% faster aim time, this is not how it works but 10% less bloom on your gun. This is important to remember, it is not faster aim time by way of the aiming circle closing quicker, it is not, it just does not bloom as big.

 

 These 3 tanks have fast aim times already yes BUT, and most importantly, their soft stats dispersion values are crap. For the tier 4 and 5 they shoot really fast and recoil like a mother fokker and this bloom is big, bigger than the gun can aim before your next shot is reloaded, in other words the gun shoots faster than it aims in effect. But since you are using solid bush, not moving and only using your turret your GLD is now stopping that recoiling aim bloom from being as bad along with all the other soft stats such as turret movement as you follow your target and the irregular movements of your hand on the mouse so it aims faster by not having to close as big an aiming circle and so your spread of shot dispersion is always tighter therefore your gun is always more accurate and the result you improve your chances of hitting your target and can exploit full dpm, missing fewer shots. With the tier6 HC and it's 90mm gun, the reload is much slower so you might think the GLD is definitely not needed, wrong, the HC has atrociously bad "soft stats" so even just turning your turret slightly with a HC causes big bloom. Also, don't take stated aim times as gospel, I have found them anything but true, I have often counted from zero to 3.5 seconds for aim times stated as under 2 seconds.

It's worth noting that the GLD also doesn't work on the move, and contrary to the above, it is just 10% faster aim time.

What is described above is the Vertical stabilizer equipment which is definitely worth mounting on any vehicle that can mount it (low tiers can't)

Neither piece of equipment actually improves accuracy. 

The tier 4-6 also all have a very fast aim time https://tanks.gg/com...1?t=t67~hellcat so the GLD is not really a good use of equipment. 

 

While pulling back behind a bush is the foolproof method off staying unspotted while shooting, you are also losing one of the main advantages of the turreted TDs; they can swing their guns around to fire without breaking their camo and view range.

Yes, firing in a bush negates a lot of your camo, but at binocular range, a camo net will also help prevent you get spotted when firing.

And don't forget that you should never be brawling. Your speed is so that you can get to and set up in a good position before the enemy enter your kill zone.

Too many forget this and end up pushing too fast and dying easily.

For example: 

http://wotreplays.eu...y-baldrickk-t67

Note that I make a beeline for a bush I know I can use well at the start, and I pick up 1k dmg from there before the game really got started.

 

I did kinda break my own rule about brawling after that, but only because I thought trading my hitpoints would help keep my allies alive, leading to a more definite win.

 

My crew here are about halfway training concealment as their first skill, they are not some sort of ultimate padder crew.

 

Equipment used: Rammer, Binocs, Camo net. Which is my recommendation for all 3.

 

 

Edit: Oh and about aim times.

The listed value is the time taken to shrink to 2/3 of its original size (radius), not the time taken to aim fully from whatever state you are in when you start aiming. 

It will match up when dispersion penalties make it exactly 3* fully aimed size. If it starts smaller, it aims faster than listed, if it starts larger it takes longer.

 

Edit part 2:

Now OP has started training camo, it means his crew has hit 100% - particularly his gunner. 

This means, even without the GLD, he'll be aiming faster and firing more accurately, so hitting more than he was before regardless. 

Those last few % primary skill do make a noticeable difference. 


Edited by Baldrickk, 10 May 2018 - 10:58 PM.


Baldrickk #20 Posted 10 May 2018 - 11:41 PM

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Oh and here's a hellcat with a camo net (unfinished video)







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