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cap or not to cap ?


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an0ther #1 Posted 04 May 2018 - 08:06 PM

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question to the better players, replay in the link.

 

could i have done more and still win, and how - in a way not to risk victory too much ?

 

tips ?

 

http://wotreplays.eu/site/4338503

 



cellaman7 #2 Posted 04 May 2018 - 08:34 PM

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Question to the better players. That's a tough call.

I watched the clip you put up and you were concentrating on the hill. You had a friendly SU-152 sniping at the cap, you had a Borsig covering your tail. There was 2 tanks on the hill holding off the enemy. I think you could have parked behind cover and capped as you knew the positions of the enemy.

 

As the cap timer ticked down the enemy would have had no choice but to come after you and they would have been sitting ducks with concentrated friendly fire.

 

Yours noobily.... cella



Dorander #3 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:33 PM

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It might have been a bit premature but from what I can see, I probably would've made the same call as you and capped. Your team seemed to have the upper hand, but if that heavy on the other side of the tracks had spotted you, you'd have been wiped out from the hill, at which your strongest flank becomes far more of a toss-up. In fact, if that game had lasted a few seconds longer, I'd predict your tank would've exploded.

 

The west flank only had a few TDs camping, the AMX30 was dead, if the enemy had pushed that and managed to fold it you could've been in a lot of trouble. I've seen so many battles on that map end unexpectedly because a few mistakes were made and what looked like a strong flank was suddenly wiped out.


Capping is a legitimate way to win. You get more xp for dealing more damage, but you get far less xp if you actually lose. Seen plenty battles end up in a loss too 'cause people didn't want to win by capping and tossed away their tanks trying to get 1-2 more shots in.



Maj_Solo #4 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:43 PM

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MM rules. 

"In Match MM rules".

You don't know if your team mates will bounce their followin 15 shots all of them.

 

I usually a s k the one tank to continue cap cause I seen so many times how they kill everyone and then suddenly just die ... just like that cause none of their shots penned just suddenly.

 

Also I usually as all crap tanks that are of no use anyways with less then 10% to cap.

 

I wrote ask above but WG refuse to print it

as = ask

 

Either we are stats hunters or we just want to win and risk less. My game is go for the win and think less about stats. If you cap you usually cause the enemy to advance in panic and try end the cap.

 


Edited by Maj_Solo, 04 May 2018 - 09:46 PM.


unhappy_bunny #5 Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:50 PM

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I watched your replay.

As for capping or not, you got the win so it worked out fine. 

My main concern with the replay is you seemed to be firing AP, unless I am seriously wrong. As a Dinger, shouldn't you only carry "gold"? Hope you dont get into trouble for that.



Browarszky #6 Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:18 PM

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In general, not capping or deciding to cap too late can cost you a match. If things go well, you can always call the cap off, harder to do the other way.

wEight_Tanker #7 Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:26 PM

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I crinkle all the unicums' medals to pieces by capping carelessly just because I can. Feels good to be an [edited]. Happened to me numerous times, so I'd say [edited]it, I'll become one too.

Enforcer1975 #8 Posted 04 May 2018 - 11:22 PM

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Yeah better cap than sorry.
You never know how many muppets will suddenly have the urge to turn a win into a loss because "we have 3x as many tanks than them" and attack one by one.

D4wiD3K #9 Posted 05 May 2018 - 12:24 AM

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View PostwEight_Tanker, on 04 May 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

I crinkle all the unicums' medals to pieces by capping carelessly just because I can. Feels good to be an [edited]. Happened to me numerous times, so I'd say [edited]it, I'll become one too.

 

Yeah, because you're a jealous bot with a recent win rate of 46% and sitting in a cap circle is the only thing you're good for. It's only fair that the players who have to carry your sorry arse game after game get some kind of punishment, which in this case means losing the XP and credits from the cleanup they fully deserve.

 

It's funny how all the capper bots are always adamant how they play to win yet that doesn't seem to materialize in a half-decent win rate. I think it's about 100% likely that you've lost more games due to stubbornly sitting in cap and making yourself useless than you have by not capping. But hey, that's how you achieve red recent win rate and still think you're smart.


Edited by D4wiD3K, 05 May 2018 - 12:43 AM.


PhooBar #10 Posted 05 May 2018 - 01:21 AM

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View PostD4wiD3K, on 05 May 2018 - 12:24 AM, said:

 

Yeah, because you're a jealous bot with a recent win rate of 46% and sitting in a cap circle is the only thing you're good for. It's only fair that the players who have to carry your sorry arse game after game get some kind of punishment, which in this case means losing the XP and credits from the cleanup they fully deserve.

 

It's funny how all the capper bots are always adamant how they play to win yet that doesn't seem to materialize in a half-decent win rate. I think it's about 100% likely that you've lost more games due to stubbornly sitting in cap and making yourself useless than you have by not capping. But hey, that's how you achieve red recent win rate and still think you're smart.

 

Oh look...

D4wiD3K has finally found someone with a 1% worse WR than his, so now he gets to be Mr. Salty.

Well played sir!

 

ONTOPIC: A wise man once said, "Capping at the right time is smart.  Capping at the wrong time is dumb.  Ignoring the enemy capping is stupid."

It's not an answer, I know.  But it is a cool quote.

 


Edited by PhooBar, 05 May 2018 - 01:40 AM.


TheComfyChair #11 Posted 05 May 2018 - 01:55 AM

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I always find it amusing when during a battle which you are getting your arse handed to you someone always says "no cap" . :facepalm:


 



Rataplan #12 Posted 05 May 2018 - 09:50 AM

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To cap, or not to cap--that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous dragged on game time
Or to take cap against a sea of low health enemies
Or by opposing them end any remaining chance to win. To die, to cap--
No more--and by a cap to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
 


Orkbert #13 Posted 05 May 2018 - 10:09 AM

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View PostTheComfyChair, on 05 May 2018 - 01:55 AM, said:

I always find it amusing when during a battle which you are getting your arse handed to you someone always says "no cap" . :facepalm:

 

 

Not to mention that back when cross-team chat was still possible it was often enough some players from the enemy team who screamed about "No Cap!" :amazed::facepalm:

 

I might comply to a teammate's demand of not doing a cap victory, but if the enemy wanted me to leave their flag is was and still is their own goddamn job to reduce the cappoints I have accumulated.



Dorander #14 Posted 05 May 2018 - 10:30 AM

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View PostOrkbert, on 05 May 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

 

Not to mention that back when cross-team chat was still possible it was often enough some players from the enemy team who screamed about "No Cap!" :amazed::facepalm:

 

I might comply to a teammate's demand of not doing a cap victory, but if the enemy wanted me to leave their flag is was and still is their own goddamn job to reduce the cappoints I have accumulated.

 

Oh man, those were good times! Especially when the other team was obviously ahead in kills and that base timer approached full and they realized they weren't actually winning and getting the xp and credits they think they "deserved". So much rage! :D

SirDixie #15 Posted 05 May 2018 - 10:39 AM

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I work on the (usually safe) assumption that my team mates are a bunch of simpering buffoons, if I'm in a position to cap then I'm going to do just that. I could trust them to kill the other team, but then I remember the times I trusted randoms to help me in other games...

Xeideo #16 Posted 05 May 2018 - 11:00 AM

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You did nothing wrong.

It was a 7vs7 TD Matchup on a Camper Map and you was fight on frond-line with your Jagtiger. You wasnt hide behind Houses all the Time so enemy can reset you if they aim on you.

So i see nothing wrong her. Funny think at the end of your Replay that enemy CenturionAX wasnt even spoted. I think he was Camp/Sniper on H0

 

Screenshot with details at round end:

 

You did a good job :honoring:


Edited by Xeideo, 05 May 2018 - 11:01 AM.


D4wiD3K #17 Posted 05 May 2018 - 11:55 AM

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View PostPhooBar, on 05 May 2018 - 12:21 AM, said:

 

Oh look...

D4wiD3K has finally found someone with a 1% worse WR than his, so now he gets to be Mr. Salty.

Well played sir!

 

ONTOPIC: A wise man once said, "Capping at the right time is smart.  Capping at the wrong time is dumb.  Ignoring the enemy capping is stupid."

It's not an answer, I know.  But it is a cool quote.

 

 

 

The technicalities unfortunately make it impossible me to delve deeper into the subject but if my stats are a concern here, I'll be able to share a simplified screenshot. If you're looking for further details someone else has to share them due to technicalities. I'd also like to very carefully highlight that I am not Per_Saukko_EU even though our stats are rather similar.

 

 

Anyway, statistically I'm still... slightly better than wEight_Tanker. Actually his recent win rate is almost 18% below mine and his recent WN8 is slightly more than a quarter of mine. But what the hell, he has more cap points so he's the guy who is clearly making the right plays and "not risking wins". Who cares about that minor gap of 17-18% in recent win rate when you can sit in cap circle, deny XP and credits from the people who carry you and once every 50 games it will turn out to be a better play than continuing to kill enemy tanks? It's that one instance when a seemingly certain victory was thrown away that matters right? Might as well forget about all those much more common losses when the bots render their tanks useless by sitting in the cap circle and do nothing during the moments when the close games are decided. Why look into the mirror and try to learn from better players when you can argue that your recent 46% win rate is a result of bad teams? It obviously has nothing to do with low damage output, low spots, and habits like sitting in cap circle and doing nothing when their hitpoints and presence most need to be shared? Maybe we're going to hear the aimbot argument next.

 

The trend in World of Tanks forum seems to be bots who are wrong defending bots who are wrong, basically spreading the disease and trying to turn more players into brainless cap circle zombies. Unfortunately being hopelessly stupid isn't against the forum rules but pointing out to someone that they are doing that is, so it's become a common sight to see bad players defending bad plays and encouraging each other to do them over and over again even though all the objective evidence says they shouldn't. But they play for fun and sitting in a cap circle and denying a good game from the teammate who has worked hard to win you the game feels almost like a carry doesn't it?


Edited by D4wiD3K, 05 May 2018 - 12:00 PM.


XrN1 #18 Posted 05 May 2018 - 12:01 PM

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The question is: What is your goal?

 

Is it your goal to win games (and increase your win rate), or is it to increase stats (xp, crew xp, dmg stats etcetc)? 

If you purely want to win, it is a complete valid way to win, so why not. 

 

As for the question whether there is more to get out there and still win, that is more complicated.

 

There is definitely more to get out there, but you are pushing into enemy territory with a few TDs still unspotted. 

On the plus side for you, the enemy has lost their LTs and your team still have both of yours. They have done a far bit of spotting and managed to stay alive. 

 

Looking at the results, this win was worth 442 base xp. There is definitely more to get out there so if you played longer and ended up losing, in the absolute worst case scenario where you blow up after doing 0 extra dmg, you still would have gotten more than 200 xp. Do you win for 442 xp quickly or push more for a chance at a realistic 700-900 xp? Aside from the specifics of this battle, you are on your x2 game with personal reserves running, I would have pushed for more instead of winning with a low xp game based on that alone. 

 

Let's say you reset the your cap points and continue, your question is how to win without risking too much. Probably continue helping with the hill and support the LTs until they can take the hill with help of arty, stay in cap to keep the pressure on. Once you have the hill it would be a lot harder for the enemy team to spot the cap without exposing themselves as they will get shot from almost all directions. 

 

Your team is controlling the left flank, the enemy team does not have the hill, they cannot push middle without getting shot at and the flag is being capped, your team has the upper hand, and from that position it is easier to do more dmg and get more out of your game. 

 

 

But since it's random battles with random people, the most likely outcome from continuing to play is that the left flank gets impatient, pushes and dies to enemy TDs, the LTs on the hill somehow get hit by arty and blow up, the enemy centurion pops up on the mini map next to your arty because of ninja skills and O-HO and 257 find their balls and decide to yolo push you.

 

 



Bulldog_Drummond #19 Posted 05 May 2018 - 12:05 PM

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View Postunhappy_bunny, on 04 May 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:

I watched your replay.

As for capping or not, you got the win so it worked out fine. 

My main concern with the replay is you seemed to be firing AP, unless I am seriously wrong. As a Dinger, shouldn't you only carry "gold"? Hope you dont get into trouble for that.

 

OP is currently undergoing "re-education".  He may be back in about 15 years, if he survives.

D4wiD3K #20 Posted 05 May 2018 - 12:11 PM

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View PostXrN1, on 05 May 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

Is it your goal to win games (and increase your win rate), or is it to increase stats (xp, crew xp, dmg stats etcetc)? 

If you purely want to win, it is a complete valid way to win, so why not. 

 

It's perfectly fine to lose one "certain win" game every few hundreds of battles and in the meantime get tens of thousands of XP and millions of credits for getting your rewards during the clean-up. And a few wins that the "i pley for win so i cap" players don't get because they don't realize that often going out there and shooting enemy tanks is what turns a 90% win into a 100% win. Often the best way to ensure that a 90% won game isn't thrown away is to go out there and see the business done yourself without giving your teammates the opportunity to go and throw their tanks away. The "i cap for win" logic of course assumes that you never lose games because of sitting in cap circle and when it happens they blame their team for "throwing away a won game". These losses happen far more often than such "players" are willing to admit.

 

Early caps also have the problem that the win becomes worthless. Encounter Mines ninjacaps are a good example, even the highest XP players on the enemy team get a negligible amount of XP. If you get 150 XP the victory multiplier doesn't really do anything. The "win is a win" argument reminds me of a Finnish saying "Reikä se on rinkelilläkin." which roughly translates to "Even a donut has a hole." Yes, you can technically screw lots of things because the world is full of "usable" holes. This saying just keeps forgetting that the quality is not the same.


If someone wants to learn anything from this, it is that you should always try to see the big picture and not just the "obvious" yet extremely rare one time instance. If you lose one battle every 200-300 games because of not capping it will hardly have any negative impact on your stats. 

 

To give you a glaring example of this, let's assume that there's a poker player who is very solid otherwise but for some reason whenever he hits royal flush he folds to any bet. Since his hand is unbeatable and he is literally 100% to win every hand, this is a very obvious misplay and even the worst players generally see this and know such folds are outrageous. The thing though is, this kind of mistake will hardly cost the man anything. As obvious and blatant as his terrible misplay is, he will get the opportunity to do this once every couple of years. He will lose much, much more money by making a little bit too loose calls with his flush or straight draws so those mistakes are actually much more significant even though they are only marginally wrong and most players won't even recognize that it's a mistake. 

 

Always see the big picture. Don't be the idiot who lets one extremely rare instance ruin his future plays.


Edited by D4wiD3K, 05 May 2018 - 12:28 PM.





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