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The Panther 88 - Most underpowered tank in the game?


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Simeon85 #1 Posted 15 May 2018 - 01:58 PM

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500th out of 500 tanks apparently by win rate, with a global win rate of just 46.15% according to Vbaddict -

http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.php?tier=0&tanktype=0&nation=0&premium=0&modeid=0&team=0&battles=1000&groupby=0&fieldname=won_lost_ratio&server=

 

(BTW AMX 65t is 2nd worst) 

 

It also should be noted that this is a premium tank, it has no stock grind and people will be using their good German mediums crews, like I have a 6 skill E50M crew in mine, yet the tank is still that bad.

 

Here is the current win rate curve -

 

Posted Image

 

Most people losing about 3-4% win rate playing this tank.

 

Problems IMO with this tank -

 

Mobility - 

 

Very low top speed for a medium of 46kph, below average hp/ton of 15 combines to make this a sluggish tank. Plus fairly average traverse rates as well. The ground resistances are good, but overall you are not going to rush anywhere quickly or circle anything, the old 40kph Centurions probably felt faster. 

 

Size and lack of armour - 

 

The Panther is a big tank and the 'armour' is just about HE proof, the turret tier 5s can pen right through the front. Any bounce you get on this tank is luck more than anything. You can occasionally bait some sidescrape bounces but nothing most other tier 8 meds can do as long as they don't have overmatchable side armour.

 

Gun handling - 

 

The dispersion values are ok, though worse for example than a Progetto (which has an autoloader!) or a T-44-100, they are what were probably considered good dispersion values for a tier 8 medium maybe two years ago but are now below average. Plus you have a 2.4s aim time, pretty much worse than all other 230 - 250 alpha tier 8 mediums, this is only 0.2s better than a Vk 1001P that is using a 128cm gun with 440 alpha.  

 

Penetration - 

 

203mm penetration on the standard rounds and a very weak 237mm of penetration on the premium APCR rounds, on a tank that regularly sees tier 10s. Again maybe 2-3 years ago 203mm of pen on tier 8 medium was pretty good, but not any longer and many tier 8 meds now have more around 220, plus some of the lower pen ones have had their pen buffed up, like the Pershing and T-44. 

 

The T-44 (and other derivatives like the prot and 100) also had their premium APCR bumped up to 247mm of penetration, I think leaving the Panther 88 with the worst or joint worst premium ammo pen. 237mm of APCR is going to struggle with the sides of some tier 10 heavies, let alone their weak spots. 

 

General averageness 

 

It is not just these weak areas that makes the tank poor, it's the fact that these weak areas are not compensated by other strong areas.

  • The DPM is good and is technically the second highest of tier 8 meds, but it's about 100 - 150 more than most of the others so is nothing stand out. 
  • Accuracy is also pretty good, but again nothing that another 5 or 6 tanks don't have.
  • View range at 390 is very average
  • Camo is not terrible but it is the worst of all tier 8 meds. 
  • Hit points is high at 1500 but again only 50-100 more than most other tier 8 meds so nothing stand out. 

 

So you are left with this overall package of a tank that is weak in multiple areas and in it's strong areas is basically average, producing a thoroughly underwhelming tank. 

 

Proposed changes. 

 

An obvious way to go could be the same buff as the Panther 2, give the Panther 88 the really long 88, this would solve the penetration problems at least and buff some of the gun handling like the Panther 2 got, but this would basically make it a Panther 2 copy.

 

My proposition would be this -

 

  • Buff aim time to 2s, no paper med should have to aim more like a heavy tank.
  • Buff turret dispersion from 0.13 to 0.10, this is still more than an IS3. 
  • Buff the premium rounds to 260 pen APCR. 
  • Buff the accuracy to 0.28 base. 
  • Buff the DPM to 3k base. 

 

The tank would still be slow, it would still be big and paper, but it would be able to use it;s gun much better, pen higher tanks when needed and it would have a clear stand out feature.

 

3k base DPM is the same as the E50 has with the long long 88 on tier 9, anyone who has used that gun will know that whilst the DPM and ROF is funny, in practical terms you can't use it and alpha is better. It would be stronger on tier 8, but still not OP in my book and the tank would trade a lot to get it (poor base pen, no armour, poor camo, poor mobility) but it would enable the tank to have some threat and something over other tier 8 meds.  Letting a Panther 88 get the side of your tier 10 heavy might actually be a threat because that Panther 88 could be shredding you with it's ROF. 

 

 



OIias_of_Sunhillow #2 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:03 PM

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The most common base camping tank I've seen.

I've never seen one leave the spawn area, so I'm guessing they have no power whatsoever.



TheOddRogue #3 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:10 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 15 May 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

 

 

  • Buff the DPM to 3k base. 

 

 

 

 

Are you [edited]insane? Jesus christ. 


Edited by TheOddRogue, 15 May 2018 - 02:11 PM.


Baldrickk #4 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:15 PM

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0.28 base accuracy? Are you joking?
Otherwise not a bad set of possible changes.

I remember when 203mm was second best pen, only Cent had more and it lost alpha to get it.

trrprrprr #5 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:19 PM

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Cant really judge tank by global wr.  I got harrased by one in my Emil I...sure i got focused by two arties, but still Panters turret is trollish....that said, panter just has to choose targets and inaccurate garbage like Emil I will get punished. Most of them drive in open and get picked fast, but if driven by a decent player, they are very annoying.

 

And those stats on "paper" is pretty much bull crap.  I rememmbered about Emils "superb" aim before i rebought it, so i installed +20% on move and +10% aim time, and even if it shows like 2ish sec aim time, it still feels worse than other nation 2.4-2.8 aim time guns.....wont even start about its accuracy even fully aimed.   

 

 

Anyways, after your suggested buffs it would be OP as sht and yet another med that will have no problem taking down any heavy from some cover unspotted.

 



Search_Warrant #6 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:22 PM

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Most tier 8 meds need to be like Progetto. Alpha or Burst to compete with the garbage +2mm. high DPM is nothing special with a pewpew gun. Cearnarvon has a ton of DPM but its still a pretty bad tank as a whole.

TheOddRogue #7 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:28 PM

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Here's how I suggest to fix it: 

 

  • Give it 8 degrees depression all around, no spot with 4 degrees, like the panther 2. 
  • give it 55km/h top speed, like panther 2. 
  • buff power to weight from 15 to 17.
  • Give it a 320 alpha gun with its current DPM, and with the gunhandling characteristics of the E-50
  • Standard rounds with at least 212 pen and premium rounds with around 260 pen. 

Done!


Edited by TheOddRogue, 15 May 2018 - 02:30 PM.


Balc0ra #8 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:28 PM

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It was buffed once already. And then it had a 44% WR, but still the worst on EU at least of any tier 8. So you see how much that did help.

Igor_BL #9 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:32 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 15 May 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

Most tier 8 meds need to be like Progetto. Alpha or Burst to compete with the garbage +2mm. high DPM is nothing special with a pewpew gun. Cearnarvon has a ton of DPM but its still a pretty bad tank as a whole.

 

hahah caernavron is bad tank?

Search_Warrant #10 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:40 PM

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View PostIgor_BL, on 15 May 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

 

hahah caernavron is bad tank?

 

I dont see anyone playing it. the DPM is good but its still a sluggish. only reason its remotely decent is coz it got the 32 pounder RECENTLY. so it was bad for a long time.plus Black Prince and Church7 exist.....

Igor_BL #11 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:41 PM

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1) we are talking about current Caernavron. It is great tank.
2) Churchil, BlackPrince, old Caernavron suck/sucked, but it doesnt matter. This tank is really strong.

Geno1isme #12 Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:58 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 15 May 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

My proposition would be this -

 

  • Buff aim time to 2s, no paper med should have to aim more like a heavy tank.
  • Buff turret dispersion from 0.13 to 0.10, this is still more than an IS3. 
  • Buff the premium rounds to 260 pen APCR. 
  • Buff the accuracy to 0.28 base. 
  • Buff the DPM to 3k base.

 

For base stats, that would be retardedly OP. Highest base DPM at T8 currently (if we ignore the basically non-existant ISU-130) is 2760 on the AT-15. That's a sluggish, turretless TD with very low alpha and low pen (for a TD). Adding a med with 10% more DPM, better accuracy, mobility and a turret on top is just beyond silly. Even the Caernarvon doesn't get past 2600 DPM.

 

2500 base DPM might be ok (that's still a 20% increase), add some small gun handling improvements and a 800 hp engine with increased speed limit and it should be good to go. Well, it will still be mostly played by wallet warrior bots due to "must snipe with stronk german tanks" myths.



xx984 #13 Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:02 PM

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:B

 

 

On a serious note, the tank is TERRIBLE.

 

PROS

-Looks Sexy

- Good DPM

 

CONS

- Huge target

-No Armour

-Mediocre mobility

-Bad pen on both standard and premium

-Bad accuracy (On paper its pretty good, But during battle, gun never hits anything, and when it does you will probably bounce)

 

 

Only reason i got one is because its a panther, and i had left over gold i didnt need for anything else and was discounted at the time. 

 


Edited by xx984, 15 May 2018 - 03:03 PM.


Search_Warrant #14 Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:05 PM

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To be fair IS-3 turret dispersion is just a long time russian bias number that it should NEVER have gotten. its like PATTON levels of dispersion, just typical russian mentally slipping its way into the game. they even had Churchill3 have 1.3 exp coefficiency from day 1 and the ONLY one with this exp bonus. they dident even tell anyone becuase they knew it was wrong.

 

Seriously IS-3 needs that stat nerfing to IS-3A levels. in other words absolute trash and cant hit anything when turning the turret.



xx984 #15 Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:10 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 15 May 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

To be fair IS-3 turret dispersion is just a long time russian bias number that it should NEVER have gotten. its like PATTON levels of dispersion, just typical russian mentally slipping its way into the game. they even had Churchill3 have 1.3 exp coefficiency from day 1 and the ONLY one with this exp bonus. they dident even tell anyone becuase they knew it was wrong.

 

Seriously IS-3 needs that stat nerfing to IS-3A levels. in other words absolute trash and cant hit anything when turning the turret.

 

Pretty much the only thing IS-3 has going for it tho

Strappster #16 Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:12 PM

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View PostTheOddRogue, on 15 May 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

Are you [edited]insane? Jesus christ. 

 

Funny how much difference a couple of hours can make, isn't it.

 

View PostTheOddRogue, on 15 May 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

Arguably the most sensible person on the forums agrees with me, I can't be wrong, this is a a new thing. 

 

It's almost as though you care more about whether someone agrees with you than what they say. :rolleyes:

 

 

As for the Panther 8,8, it's been the worst choice for a tier 8 premium at least as long as I've been playing and it was one of my early must-buy-prem-tank knee jerk purchases. It'd be improved no end by returning the previous turret and gun mantlet and taking the E 50's back to the old style as well. No need to change the armour models, just get rid of these stupid-looking guns that look like the knee joint of a bloody Action Man.

 

Call me shallow if you want, I stopped grinding the E 50 when the model changed and have hardly played it since. Might still be a great tank to play but I like my tanks to look nice.



Ceeb #17 Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:13 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 15 May 2018 - 01:22 PM, said:

Most tier 8 meds need to be like Progetto. Alpha or Burst to compete with the garbage +2mm. high DPM is nothing special with a pewpew gun. Cearnarvon has a ton of DPM but its still a pretty bad tank as a whole.

 

 

 

No way is the caen a bad tank.  

 

Nope.  Not anymore.  

 



ares354 #18 Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:13 PM

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What give you high DPM if you cant use it. ? 

Centurion have 226 pen and like 230 alpha vs 203 and 240 alpha, that big deal ? 

Centurion premium or not, FV 4202 have turret that at least can and will bounce, Panther 88 again not. 

Panther 88 cant be dog fighter, can't be sniper, can't be flanker, what she is ? 

That MT is powercreeped just like CDC, Patton KR, STA 2 and so on. WG buffed worst crap on this tier MT's, meaning FV 4202, T54 Mod 1, 59-Patton. In compere to some buff, Panther 88 buff in 9.17.1 was nothing. T44 100 who is in top MT of his tier got so many buffs. Just typical WG powercreep. 
 

Block Quote

 Pretty much the only thing IS-3 has going for it tho 

 

Really >?

390 with 225 pen, great mobility, trollis armor and you say all he have is good dispersion, sound like heresy. 

Edited by ares354, 15 May 2018 - 03:15 PM.


xx984 #19 Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:17 PM

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View Postares354, on 15 May 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

What give you high DPM if you cant use it. ? 

Centurion have 226 pen and like 230 alpha vs 203 and 240 alpha, that big deal ? 

Centurion premium or not, FV 4202 have turret that at least can and will bounce, Panther 88 again not. 

Panther 88 cant be dog fighter, can't be sniper, can't be flanker, what she is ? 

That MT is powercreeped just like CDC, Patton KR, STA 2 and so on. WG buffed worst crap on this tier MT's, meaning FV 4202, T54 Mod 1, 59-Patton. In compere to some buff, Panther 88 buff in 9.17.1 was nothing. T44 100 who is in top MT of his tier got so many buffs. Just typical WG powercreep. 
 

 

Really >?

390 with 225 pen, great mobility, trollis armor and you say all he have is good dispersion, sound like heresy. 

390 alpha and 225 Pen is nothing special on tier 8 anymore, Armour is pretty much paper, especially seeing as you cant angle without making it even weaker,  turret has easy pen weak spot on roof over match by 90% of tanks it can meet, crapgun dep.. There are far better tier 8 heavies. Id rather play the Tiger 2. 



Simeon85 #20 Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:21 PM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 15 May 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

0.28 base accuracy? Are you joking?
Otherwise not a bad set of possible changes.

I remember when 203mm was second best pen, only Cent had more and it lost alpha to get it.

 

Only 0.01 better than a Leopard 1, we all see how that benefits the Leo (as in it doesn't) and is has very average pen coupled with that so hardly like it would be OP, you'd get it down to about 0.27 maxed out I reckon.

 

When accuracy works the way it does with the majority of shots going centre-mass, it's not that an important stat, as you see with O-Hos sniping sucessfully across the map with their derp guns and like 0.5 base accuracy. 

 

 

View Posttrrprrprr, on 15 May 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

Cant really judge tank by global wr.  I got harrased by one in my Emil I...sure i got focused by two arties, but still Panters turret is trollish....that said, panter just has to choose targets and inaccurate garbage like Emil I will get punished. Most of them drive in open and get picked fast, but if driven by a decent player, they are very annoying.

 

And those stats on "paper" is pretty much bull crap.  I rememmbered about Emils "superb" aim before i rebought it, so i installed +20% on move and +10% aim time, and even if it shows like 2ish sec aim time, it still feels worse than other nation 2.4-2.8 aim time guns.....wont even start about its accuracy even fully aimed.   

 

 

Anyways, after your suggested buffs it would be OP as sht and yet another med that will have no problem taking down any heavy from some cover unspotted.

 

 

You can judge a tank on global WR when it's the worst in game, especially when that tank is a premium so has no stock grind and generally has better crews than the average tech tree tanks AND vbaddict data generally is from above average players uploading their data.

 

Basically that 46% global win rate has everything trying to boost it, premium status, good crews, better than average players and the tanks is still barely above a bot.

 

I also showed the skill adjusted win rate curve that shows how bad the tank is for all skill levels.

 

The Emil 1 has neither a good aim time (it's over 3s) nor good dispersions values (it has dispersion values like a Cromwell) so that is why it's gun handling is terrible.

 

No med currently easily takes down heavies, especially on tier 8.

 

Even below part heavies like the T32 are better than most tier 8 mediums. 

 

 

View PostGeno1isme, on 15 May 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

 

For base stats, that would be retardedly OP. Highest base DPM at T8 currently (if we ignore the basically non-existant ISU-130) is 2760 on the AT-15. That's a sluggish, turretless TD with very low alpha and low pen (for a TD). Adding a med with 10% more DPM, better accuracy, mobility and a turret on top is just beyond silly. Even the Caernarvon doesn't get past 2600 DPM.

 

2500 base DPM might be ok (that's still a 20% increase), add some small gun handling improvements and a 800 hp engine with increased speed limit and it should be good to go. Well, it will still be mostly played by wallet warrior bots due to "must snipe with stronk german tanks" myths.

 

Not IMO it wouldn't.

 

Caernarvon has 2.7k base DPM with 220 pen, 280 alpha, better aim time than the Panther 88 currently, same dispersion stats, more gun depression and vastly better all round armour.

 

The AT-15 has 2,878 DPM, the same accuracy I suggested, a 1.62s aim time, much better penetration on both rounds and has actual armour.  According to Vbaddict the AT-15 bounces 45% of shots fired at it currently and it has a 49.57% win rate which is actually the 15th highest win rate of all tier 8 non-premiums.

 

Plus it has this WR curve -

 

Posted Image

 

You can see how bad the Panther 88 is compared to the AT-15 currently.

 

So yeh it would have about 120 more DPM than an AT-15, and about 300 more than a Caernarvon, but those tanks have armour and in the current meta that is massive, the Panther 88 would basically just have DPM under my changes, those other tanks have multiple other strengths over it.

 

So can't see how it would be OP, not based on DPM, it still trades a lot for that DPM but it would be interesting, and it would stand out from the other tier 8 meds with this unique ability. Much like the Torty was never OP even with it's base 4k DPM. 

 

Like I said the E50 has that DPM on tier 9 with more pen, that sort of accuracy and is a much better tier for tier tank, but people still use the 105 because alpha is much better than DPM.

 

 


Edited by Simeon85, 15 May 2018 - 03:24 PM.





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