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An idea to balance the HE/HESH broken ammo

Idea equipment game balance

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panzer_war #1 Posted 26 May 2018 - 12:49 PM

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Everyone likes to get smashed with a 800+ damage HE shell in his heavy tank. Who doesn't like after all a HE shell on his E-100 turret for 700 damage with 4 critical hits?.

Allright this idea is simple, if  wargaming doesn't want to nerf the gold ammo on the type 4/5  and FV 183s then we must do something else.

My idea is to buff the "SPALL LINER" equipement, even though i use it, it's not actually effective unless you get shot on a heavily armoured part of your vehicle, but this doesn't work anymore if the explosion can reach armor parts that are only 50mm thick or less. For example i got hit by a T-92 on the test server on the roof of my E-100 turret, i had spall liner on, and i got damaged for 4 criticals (ammo rack + 3 members) and 700 roll, aside the artillery we are still talking about big caliber HE shells.

And it could enhance players to use this useful equipment, in fact with a 30% spall liner i was able to get only 370 rolls from type 5 gold ammo on my front ST-l's upper plate. 

These are our current spall liners:

Super heavy spall liner: 50% protection from ramming, explosions and crew members, -10% stun duration.

Heavy spall liner: 30%  protection from ramming, explosions and crew members. -10% stun duration

Medium spall liner: 25% protection from ramming, explosions and crew members. -10% stun duration

Light spall liner: 20% protection from ramming, explosions  and crew members. -10% stun duration

Allright, let's take away the ramming which is an event that doesn't happen so often and people ain't gonna equip the spall liner for it.

Here is my idea for the spall liners: ADD an extra protection from big caliber HE shells, including HESH, and ADD extra protection for light armoured plates, tracks, and spaced armor. This is helpfull to make  big fat slow tanks a less appetizing target for arties and other HE shells shooting cancer. SO:

Super heavy spall liner: 70% protection from calibers that are more than 139mm. 50% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members. -10% stun duration. +400% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor, and low armoured plates, (so a 50mm plate could easily become a 200mm plate and reduce damage).

Heavy spall liner: 50% protection from calibers that are more than 139mm. 30% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members, -10% stun duration. +300% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor and low armoured plates.

Medium spall liner: 40% protection from calibers that are more than 139mm. 25% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members. -10% stun duration. +200% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor and low armoured plates.

Light spall liner: 30% protection from calibers that are more than 139mm, 20% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members. -10% stun duration, since light armoured vehicles are majorily made by low armoured plates, this spall liner doesn't include an extra protection for them, as would made the tank impenetrable for the majority of low caliber HE shells.

 

Remember that this affects the armor only for NON PENETRATING HE/HESH shells and NOT other types of ammo, for example tracks and a 50mm flat plate won't become as effective for AP/APCR/HEAT  and when HE/HESH are suposed to penetrate the armor.

 

What do you guys think? 

If you don't agree with the idea, please just explain any reason in the comments, instaed of writing useless things. 

Thanks


Edited by panzer_war, 05 August 2018 - 04:06 PM.


CircleOfSorrow #2 Posted 26 May 2018 - 12:58 PM

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I think this might be balanced if calibre overmatch mechanics applied to HE rounds as it does to AP.

etody77 #3 Posted 26 May 2018 - 01:57 PM

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too complicated

Balc0ra #4 Posted 26 May 2018 - 01:59 PM

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Only thing they need to do is to nerf the max damage. Type 5 HE has the same HE pen as the normal one, but way more damage. IMO it should be more pen and less damage. As derps on mid tier have HEAT or AP with 750 alpha and more pen, vs the HE with 950 as an example. As then they won't rape anything with one shot on lower tiers that often, but instead get more "reliable" damage vs higher tiers at the cost of DPM. 

 

As that annoys me more when facing it on a full pen. Then the crew it takes out or if he fails to pen for half the damage etc. 


Edited by Balc0ra, 26 May 2018 - 02:00 PM.


panzer_war #5 Posted 26 May 2018 - 02:05 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 26 May 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

Only thing they need to do is to nerf the max damage. Type 5 HE has the same HE pen as the normal one, but way more damage. IMO it should be more pen and less damage. As derps on mid tier have HEAT or AP with 750 alpha and more pen, vs the HE with 950 as an example. As then they won't rape anything with one shot on lower tiers that often, but instead get more "reliable" damage vs higher tiers at the cost of DPM. 

 

As that annoys me more when facing it on a full pen. Then the crew it takes out or if he fails to pen for half the damage etc. 

 

They ain't going to do that since it brings money, that's why i wanted to find a different solution, since those 183mm HESH and type 5 HE are "special ammo", and i don't think they will change / remove them any soon. So a player want to be noob and not even aim? fine then i will counter it with a massive equipement against it.

 

View Postetody77, on 26 May 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

too complicated
even the matchmaking is too complicated, but they are still fixing it ;)
 

Edited by panzer_war, 29 May 2018 - 06:59 PM.


etody77 #6 Posted 26 May 2018 - 02:57 PM

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View Postpanzer_war, on 26 May 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

 

even the matchmaking is too complicated, but they are still fixing it ;)

 

yes, ''fixing''

Aim_Away_From_Face #7 Posted 26 May 2018 - 03:11 PM

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Make it realistic, HESH only does module and crew damage. Won't be so attractive then.

panzer_war #8 Posted 26 May 2018 - 03:16 PM

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View PostAim_Away_From_Face, on 26 May 2018 - 02:11 PM, said:

Make it realistic, HESH only does module and crew damage. Won't be so attractive then.

 

could you please explain better what do you mean by "does module and crew damage only"? 

also why realistic? realism abandoned this game long time ago


Edited by panzer_war, 26 May 2018 - 03:16 PM.


Aim_Away_From_Face #9 Posted 26 May 2018 - 03:38 PM

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View Postpanzer_war, on 26 May 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

 

could you please explain better what do you mean by "does module and crew damage only"? 

also why realistic? realism abandoned this game long time ago

 

What part of 'module and crew damage only' is difficult?

Lov3ll #10 Posted 26 May 2018 - 03:44 PM

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All they need to do is get rid of explosive damage and problem is solved. :great::great:



WindSplitter1 #11 Posted 26 May 2018 - 05:32 PM

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View Postpanzer_war, on 26 May 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Everyone likes to get smashed with a 800+ damage HE shell in his heavy tank. Who doesn't like after all a HE shell on his E-100 turret for 700 damage with 4 critical hits?.

Allright this idea is simple, if  wargaming doesn't want to nerf the gold ammo on the type 4/5  and FV 183s then we must do something else.

My idea is to buff the "SPALL LINER" equipement, even though i use it, it's not actually effective unless you get shot on a heavily armoured part of your vehicle, but this doesn't work anymore if the explosion can reach armor parts that are only 50mm thick or less. For example i got hit by a T-92 on the test server on the roof of my E-100 turret, i had spall liner on, and i got damaged for 4 criticals (ammo rack + 3 members) and 700 roll, aside the artillery we are still talking about big caliber HE shells.

And it could enhance players to use this useful equipment, in fact with a 30% spall liner i was able to get only 370 rolls from type 5 gold ammo on my front ST-l's upper plate. 

These are our current spall liners:

Super heavy spall liner: 50% protection from ramming, explosions and crew members, -10% stun duration.

Heavy spall liner: 30%  protection from ramming, explosions and crew members. -10% stun duration

Medium spall liner: 25% protection from ramming, explosions and crew members. -10% stun duration

Light spall liner: 20% protection from ramming, explosions  and crew members. -10% stun duration

Allright, let's take away the ramming which is an event that doesn't happen so often and people ain't gonna equip the spall liner for it.

Here is my idea for the spall liners: ADD an extra protection from big caliber HE shells, including HESH, and ADD extra protection for light armoured plates, tracks, and spaced armor. This is helpfull to make  big fat slow tanks a less appetizing target for arties and other HE shells shooting cancer. SO:

Super heavy spall liner: 70% protection from calibers that are more than 150mm. 50% protection from regular calibers and ramming, crew members. -10% stun duration. +400% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor, and low armoured plates, (so a 50mm plate could easily become a 200mm plate and reduce damage) remember that this affects the armor only for HE/HESH shells, for example tracks and a 50mm engine deck won't become as effective for AP/APCR/HEAT shells.

Heavy spall liner: 50% protection from calibers that are more than 150mm. 30% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members, -10% stun duration. +300% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor and low armoured plates.

Medium spall liner: 40% protection from calibers that are more than 150mm. 25% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members. -10% stun duration. +200% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor and low armoured plates.

Light spall liner: 30% protection from calibers that are more than 150mm, 20% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members. -10% stun duration. +100% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor and low armoured plates.

 

What do you guys think? hope you agree with me.

 

 

I think no. And I don't agree with you.

panzer_war #12 Posted 26 May 2018 - 06:22 PM

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View PostWindSplitter1, on 26 May 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

 

I think no. And I don't agree with you.

 

seems i touched a sensitive spot

nice explanatory comment by the way

poor little salty baby, won't be able to be cancerous anymore with his arty/type 5/ FV4005 with this idea implemented


Edited by panzer_war, 27 May 2018 - 12:08 PM.


crnakoza #13 Posted 26 May 2018 - 07:36 PM

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So... now we crusade against HE?

 

LOL

 

 

Regarding any of the sumo tanks, as soon as I see their stupid fat faces I make sure they eat premium ammo. Problem solved.



Artick_ #14 Posted 26 May 2018 - 07:49 PM

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View Postpanzer_war, on 26 May 2018 - 12:49 PM, said:

Everyone likes to get smashed with a 800+ damage HE shell in his heavy tank. Who doesn't like after all a HE shell on his E-100 turret for 700 damage with 4 critical hits?.

Allright this idea is simple, if  wargaming doesn't want to nerf the gold ammo on the type 4/5  and FV 183s then we must do something else.

My idea is to buff the "SPALL LINER" equipement, even though i use it, it's not actually effective unless you get shot on a heavily armoured part of your vehicle, but this doesn't work anymore if the explosion can reach armor parts that are only 50mm thick or less. For example i got hit by a T-92 on the test server on the roof of my E-100 turret, i had spall liner on, and i got damaged for 4 criticals (ammo rack + 3 members) and 700 roll, aside the artillery we are still talking about big caliber HE shells.

And it could enhance players to use this useful equipment, in fact with a 30% spall liner i was able to get only 370 rolls from type 5 gold ammo on my front ST-l's upper plate. 

These are our current spall liners:

Super heavy spall liner: 50% protection from ramming, explosions and crew members, -10% stun duration.

Heavy spall liner: 30%  protection from ramming, explosions and crew members. -10% stun duration

Medium spall liner: 25% protection from ramming, explosions and crew members. -10% stun duration

Light spall liner: 20% protection from ramming, explosions  and crew members. -10% stun duration

Allright, let's take away the ramming which is an event that doesn't happen so often and people ain't gonna equip the spall liner for it.

Here is my idea for the spall liners: ADD an extra protection from big caliber HE shells, including HESH, and ADD extra protection for light armoured plates, tracks, and spaced armor. This is helpfull to make  big fat slow tanks a less appetizing target for arties and other HE shells shooting cancer. SO:

Super heavy spall liner: 70% protection from calibers that are more than 150mm. 50% protection from regular calibers and ramming, crew members. -10% stun duration. +400% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor, and low armoured plates, (so a 50mm plate could easily become a 200mm plate and reduce damage) remember that this affects the armor only for HE/HESH shells, for example tracks and a 50mm engine deck won't become as effective for AP/APCR/HEAT shells.

Heavy spall liner: 50% protection from calibers that are more than 150mm. 30% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members, -10% stun duration. +300% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor and low armoured plates.

Medium spall liner: 40% protection from calibers that are more than 150mm. 25% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members. -10% stun duration. +200% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor and low armoured plates.

Light spall liner: 30% protection from calibers that are more than 150mm, 20% protection from regular calibers, ramming and crew members. -10% stun duration. +100% effectiveness for tracks, spaced armor and low armoured plates.

 

What do you guys think? hope you agree with me.

 

 

Spallinear is useless against Direct hits from He .# Tested it.

ApocalypseSquad #15 Posted 26 May 2018 - 08:01 PM

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You want to nerf HESH, the worst premium ammo in the game bar none?  No thanks.

NUKLEAR_SLUG #16 Posted 26 May 2018 - 08:15 PM

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Spall liner only increases your effective armour thickness in the HE calculation which in practice makes the damage reduction trivial. Spall liner could be made a significant choice simply by making the protective effect a flat 50% reduction to any HE damage coming in.

DuncaN_101 #17 Posted 26 May 2018 - 09:09 PM

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HESH isn't that much of a problem ... the one lucky shot out of a 100 is something the enemy has too deal with .

 

HE itself is also not the problem.

Derp cannons is the problem you want 2 focus on but thats a whole different story.

 

so no ... i don't agree with you



AvalancheZ257 #18 Posted 26 May 2018 - 09:53 PM

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I'm all for this. Honestly this community, this forum especially, likes to shoot down any and all suggestions even though they hate WG and can't come up with alternatives themselves. Just simply buffing the spall liner is a good way to solve this problem.

 

One thing I need to pick out however, is that HESH and HE still obey basic penetration mechanics. The spall liner will have no effect if the shot penetrates, and it shouldn't. It should only reduce damage from explosions that happen outside the tank. 



panzer_war #19 Posted 27 May 2018 - 10:53 AM

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View PostApocalypseSquad, on 26 May 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

You want to nerf HESH, the worst premium ammo in the game bar none?  No thanks.

did you even read the post before commenting? as far as i know "HESH" ammo are just HE ammo with more penetration, so if they don't pen they will explode and deal damage

that's what i want to nerf, this doesn't means that the armor is increased when the round can pen, only when it explodes. Sorry but i forgot to clarify it in the post. Also HESH are premium ammo only on some british TDS, on other brithis tanks HESH are replaced as the regular HE ammo. 

 

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 26 May 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

Spall liner only increases your effective armour thickness in the HE calculation which in practice makes the damage reduction trivial. Spall liner could be made a significant choice simply by making the protective effect a flat 50% reduction to any HE damage coming in.

yeah when i made some researches i found out that the % is only armor thickness increase, and not an effective damage reduction, that's why the equipment is useless if the explosion can reach such parts that are less than 100 mm thick (think about splashing underneat a tank, easy 700 damage) and that is why my idea includes a 400% extra thickness for such low armoured plates / tracks / spaced armor so they can absorb the HE damage reducing it overall. But your idea would be great too by reducing the % of damage taken.

 

View PostArtick_, on 26 May 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

 

Spallinear is useless against Direct hits from He .# Tested it.

and i can confirm this because i tested it too, unless you get hit on a heavy armoured plate (and the explosion doesn't reach any weak plates) it works

that's why i wanted to buff the equipment

 


Edited by panzer_war, 04 July 2018 - 12:40 PM.


Ganjalf94 #20 Posted 27 May 2018 - 11:13 AM

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Nah




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