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Dogtanian #1 Posted 26 May 2018 - 10:54 PM

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I've started seeing in chat, an extension of the 'Arty hit me and is now on reload' mod.

The mod now posts the reload times of the arty in question, would this mod be against the game rules because of the reload timer information ?

 



Vule777 #2 Posted 26 May 2018 - 10:57 PM

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In my opinion yes. I recently reported one of my teammates that using that mod. For example some artys reload lightning fast when they are boosted, M44 for example with good crew reloads maybe 14 sec, i forgot, but when they are stock that is a different story. I know that all arty haters will support this mod but think of it if someone uses that for other tanks. It's similiar with gun directions on minimap.

 

Mod alone, without reload time is ok.


Edited by Vule777, 26 May 2018 - 11:02 PM.


Nishi_Kinuyo #3 Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:04 PM

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Technically not listed as illegal, although it'd be highly suspect if you'd ask me.

Fair Play Policy

 Alerting you when spotted vehicles are reloading, including displaying an enemy's reloading timer

TL;DR: arta most likely doesn't qualify for the spotted part, although it should obviously be included in the description.

That said, depending on what one plays, it should be easy enough to remember which arta you can encounter and what their general reload times are.

Which can then be relayed back to your team through regular means.

 

TL;DR TL;DR: I'd stay away from such a mod.



HeidenSieker #4 Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:05 PM

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View PostDogtanian, on 26 May 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

I've started seeing in chat, an extension of the 'Arty hit me and is now on reload' mod.

The mod now posts the reload times of the arty in question, would this mod be against the game rules because of the reload timer information ?

 

Taking the rules literally and absolutely, yes.

 

Using an implicitly acceptable interpretation of the rules, no.



Vule777 #5 Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:07 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 26 May 2018 - 11:04 PM, said:

Technically not listed as illegal, although it'd be highly suspect if you'd ask me.

TL;DR: arta most likely doesn't qualify for the spotted part, although it should obviously be included in the description.

That said, depending on what one plays, it should be easy enough to remember which arta you can encounter and what their general reload times are.

Which can then be relayed back to your team through regular means.

 

TL;DR TL;DR: I'd stay away from such a mod.

 

Sorry for spam but I must ask.

 

WTF is TL DR MR DR PRC?



Nishi_Kinuyo #6 Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:11 PM

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View PostVule777, on 26 May 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

 

Sorry for spam but I must ask.

 

WTF is TL DR MR DR PRC?

"Too long, didn't read."



Dogtanian #7 Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:17 PM

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Off to WG the replay goes and we shall see what they do.

Dorander #8 Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:45 PM

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I guess it depends a bit?

 

The old overhead reload timers mod was disgustingly accurate, unsure if it always assumed an optimal setup on the tanks or if it dynamically adjusted reload timers by asking the server for info about the opponent.

 

Either way, the "Arty hit me and is reloading for X seconds" should be fine legally if all it does is report the reload time of an artillery in an optimal situation. It's not technically different from remembering it yourself, it just provides on-screen information similar to many other mods (you can also have on-screen info about a tank you're pointing your barrel at for example, like armour values). However, a similar mod that puts best-guess reload timers over tanks in your render range would be illegal so it's not unreasonable to say this mod is similar in functionality and should not be allowed.

 

Given that, I find such mods insanely annoying and blacklist anyone who automatically sends messages to chat such as this and the "Help I'm spotted" one, so if it's gone I wouldn't shed a tear.



Vule777 #9 Posted 27 May 2018 - 12:28 AM

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View PostDorander, on 26 May 2018 - 11:45 PM, said:

Either way, the "Arty hit me and is reloading for X seconds" should be fine legally if all it does is report the reload time of an artillery in an optimal situation.

Not true. In my first post I said that i reported one teammate, his mod was pretty accurate "Arty XXX hits me and now reloads 31.5sec" (something like that).

 

Here, I found ss:

 


 

Dorander #10 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:04 AM

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View PostVule777, on 26 May 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

Not true. In my first post I said that i reported one teammate, his mod was pretty accurate "Arty XXX hits me and now reloads 31.5sec" (something like that).

 

That is indeed accurate in the sense that it's specific, down to the half second. However it does not also prove that it is also accurate in the sense that it is correct.

Vule777 #11 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:08 AM

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You lost me, sorry. English is not my native language so i didn't understand what you just said. I'm dizzy.

 

 

:trollface:



Strappster #12 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:20 AM

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View PostVule777, on 26 May 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

Mod alone, without reload time is ok.

 

God, no! Any mod that spams chat with useless information should be automatically barred. I'm sick of "Help! I'm spotted in H3!" from some spod's mod - I don't have time to stop what I'm currently doing, check out where you are and work out where you've been spotted from. If you can tell me where the enemy is, good, I'm all for that. Telling me where you are is information I already have on the bloody minimap.

 

"Enemy hit me and is reloading" is equally useless. Tell me where their arty is, simply done using the hit marker and engaging brain for a moment or two for the most likely spot that the enemy arty is sitting in.

 

View PostDorander, on 26 May 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

The old overhead reload timers mod was disgustingly accurate, unsure if it always assumed an optimal setup on the tanks or if it dynamically adjusted reload timers by asking the server for info about the opponent.

 

The old reload timer wasn't that accurate because it used the base reload ignoring equipment and crew skills and was thrown off by auto-loaders. Maybe I didn't have the same mod you used but I don't see why the reload time of your opponent is information that would sent to your client in the first place as it's worthless until they fire at you again (worthless in the sense that the vanilla client doesn't do anything with that information).

 

View PostDorander, on 27 May 2018 - 12:04 AM, said:

That is indeed accurate in the sense that it's specific, down to the half second. However it does not also prove that it is also accurate in the sense that it is correct.

 

What evidence do you have that reload timers were ever accurate?



Vule777 #13 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:26 AM

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View PostStrappster, on 27 May 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

 

God, no! Any mod that spams chat with useless information should be automatically barred. I'm sick of "Help! I'm spotted in H3!" from some spod's mod - I don't have time to stop what I'm currently doing, check out where you are and work out where you've been spotted from. If you can tell me where the enemy is, good, I'm all for that. Telling me where you are is information I already have on the bloody minimap.

 

"Enemy hit me and is reloading" is equally useless. Tell me where their arty is, simply done using the hit marker and engaging brain for a moment or two for the most likely spot that the enemy arty is sitting in.

 

 

The old reload timer wasn't that accurate because it used the base reload ignoring equipment and crew skills and was thrown off by auto-loaders. Maybe I didn't have the same mod you used but I don't see why the reload time of your opponent is information that would sent to your client in the first place as it's worthless until they fire at you again (worthless in the sense that the vanilla client doesn't do anything with that information).

 

 

What evidence do you have that reload timers were ever accurate?

 

I absolutely agree, I meant that it's not forbidden or cheating without reload time, but its annoying as f#ck.

Balc0ra #14 Posted 27 May 2018 - 02:39 AM

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It's in mod packs on the WG run site. So I suspect it is. As it gives you the reload based on 100% crew, not based on BIA, food or rammer etc.

Dorander #15 Posted 27 May 2018 - 12:58 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 27 May 2018 - 12:20 AM, said:

 

The old reload timer wasn't that accurate because it used the base reload ignoring equipment and crew skills and was thrown off by auto-loaders. Maybe I didn't have the same mod you used but I don't see why the reload time of your opponent is information that would sent to your client in the first place as it's worthless until they fire at you again (worthless in the sense that the vanilla client doesn't do anything with that information).

 

 

What evidence do you have that reload timers were ever accurate?

 

Must not have used the same mod then, mine worked fine for autoloaders as well. The mod/client could display it accurately if it got info about the enemy tank(s) for all values that affected reload time. It's also possible to solve with a dynamically adjusting value based on perceived firing rate. That's just thinking out loud though.

 

I obviously can't provide you with evidence, I can only relate my personal experiences, and those are from over a year ago anyway (or whenever the FPP was made) in which I get shot the instant that timer hit 0. Sometimes after, never before.

 

It's a bit odd however that you write that reply to a quote in which I stated that they may very well not be accurate :confused:



Strappster #16 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:05 PM

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View PostDorander, on 27 May 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

Must not have used the same mod then, mine worked fine for autoloaders as well. The mod/client could display it accurately if it got info about the enemy tank(s) for all values that affected reload time. It's also possible to solve with a dynamically adjusting value based on perceived firing rate. That's just thinking out loud though.

 

I obviously can't provide you with evidence, I can only relate my personal experiences, and those are from over a year ago anyway (or whenever the FPP was made) in which I get shot the instant that timer hit 0. Sometimes after, never before.

 

So you don't know.

 

View PostDorander, on 27 May 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

It's a bit odd however that you write that reply to a quote in which I stated that they may very well not be accurate :confused:

 

You claimed that the old mod timer was "disgustingly accurate" and then state in the same post that accurate doesn't mean the same as correct. Which really just underlines that you don't know.



Dorander #17 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:19 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 27 May 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

 

So you don't know.

 

 

You claimed that the old mod timer was "disgustingly accurate" and then state in the same post that accurate doesn't mean the same as correct. Which really just underlines that you don't know.

 

Actually it was a different post, but that doesn't really matter much. In that post I also referred to such functionality as "best-guess reload timers".

 

Accurate can mean two different things. A value of 3.1415927 is more accurate than a value of 3.14 when describing pi. In other situations 'accurate' means 'true' in a true/false dichotomy in which there are only two options rather than a sliding scale. So given that context, which definition do you think I used when I wrote "disgustingly accurate"?

 

As for what I know, repeatedly verified personal experiences are a form of knowledge. Everyone knows things without having to or being able to produce evidence to the rest of the world. It is however not very convincing and there's always the possibility this knowledge turns out to be incorrect. That's fine, but it's ridiculous to say you don't "know" these things without falling into the trap of radical scepticism. So really, you can't conclude from the fact that I can't prove it that I don't know, or vica versa, while "I can prove it thus I know it" is true, "I can't prove it thus I don't know it" is a logical fallacy. 



PervyPastryPuffer #18 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:24 PM

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I just report anyone who uses it, anyways. "arty (inserty arty name) hit me!" is fine alone, but a reload timer, even if it's an estimate, shouldn't be allowed. In my opinion at least.

 

A player can write the reload of the arty themselves, that's if they know the average reload time of the specific arty, but as soon as a certain program does it, things start to smell fishy. I don't trust it then.



Vule777 #19 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:32 PM

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I won't argue but I want to talk about it. Maybe I'm wrong but on stock guns without boosted crew, there are pretty much round numbers, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

While on boosted tanks there can be more precise reload time, something like this:

 

Its not on english but you will understand, it's reload time of M53.

 

Stock:

 

 

Boosted:

 

 

 

 

Now, we can get back on this:

 

 

 


Edited by Vule777, 27 May 2018 - 01:34 PM.


Strappster #20 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:34 PM

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View PostDorander, on 27 May 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

Actually it was a different post, but that doesn't really matter much

 

You're right. I guess that shows how much I care.

 

View PostDorander, on 27 May 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

In that post I also referred to such functionality as "best-guess reload timers".

 

Accurate can mean two different things. A value of 3.1415927 is more accurate than a value of 3.14 when describing pi. In other situations 'accurate' means 'true' in a true/false dichotomy in which there are only two options rather than a sliding scale. So given that context, which definition do you think I used when I wrote "disgustingly accurate"?

 

As for what I know, repeatedly verified personal experiences are a form of knowledge. Everyone knows things without having to or being able to produce evidence to the rest of the world. It is however not very convincing and there's always the possibility this knowledge turns out to be incorrect. That's fine, but it's ridiculous to say you don't "know" these things without falling into the trap of radical scepticism. So really, you can't conclude from the fact that I can't prove it that I don't know, or vica versa, while "I can prove it thus I know it" is true, "I can't prove it thus I don't know it" is a logical fallacy. 

 

Why the [edited]am I trying to decode this semantic [edited]? Jesus Christ, I've wasted so much time arguing dumb points on this forum only to see time and time again that there ain't no cure for stupid. Screw this crap, whatever, you're right, I'm wrong, I'm so wrong that I can't even begin to see how wrong I am. Feel free to quote that and use it out of context next time I disagree with anyone about anything. I'm done.






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