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Removing +2/-2, making PMM tanks always top tier


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Poll: Another way of dealing with PMM tanks (68 members have cast votes)

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Removing 3/5/7 and make PMM tanks always top tier?

  1. Yes (35 votes [51.47%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.47%

  2. No (33 votes [48.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.53%

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Tr0gledyte #1 Posted 27 May 2018 - 10:32 AM

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As the whole world except some people in a Belarus office know, PMM tanks have nothing to do with the MM problems, the 3/5/7 template with +2/-2 is causing it. PMM tanks aren't even that popular nowadays.

 

Let's forget about the compensation part for a second. What if they removed this template, only kept 5/10 and full same tier MM and made it so PMM tanks would only have +0/-1 MM? Would that be a better solution to this issue? I don't see why PMM needs to be removed at all. If you can't engineer a matchmaking algorithm that can deal with PMM tanks then I don't know how you even managed to make this game.

 

EDIT for clarification: Before +2/-2 with the 3/5/7 template can be removed, PMM needs to be adressed somehow. It can be removed, or PMM can be downgraded a tier to +0/-1 instead of +1/-1.


Edited by Tr0gledyte, 27 May 2018 - 10:21 PM.


Moggy47 #2 Posted 27 May 2018 - 11:58 AM

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Aside from the obvious issue with 3:5:7 (tier 8 and lower getting [edited]slapped by +2s) It causes a backlog for tier 10 vehicles.
As 3:5:7 is the default setting there will be only 3 slots available for T10 machines which MM looks for first, THIS can cause a longer wait time not for tier 8 PMM tanks but for tier 10's.
Changing the PMMs to +2 matchmaking will not improve the wait time for T8 tanks but will provide more low tier cannon fodder for the tier 10s in 3:5:7 games.
Altering the order in which matches are prioritised (5:10 first, 15 same tier next and 3:5:7 as a last resort) would solve this issue very well without all this pointless tweaking to peripheral components. But of course then no one would spend an extra 2000 gold.





xx984 #3 Posted 27 May 2018 - 12:57 PM

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I have to say no to this, I Can see why its suggested and people are voting yes, But after awhile it will just become boring and no fun, ROFL stomping tier 7s most of the time, They just need to buff up the pen on some of them to be able to fight tier 9s just as well as any other tier 8 med/heavy/td can depending on the tank and that will be fine.

 

Being bottom/mid tier is a good thing, its a challenge and plays out differently than a top tier rofl stomp for the same tank, The problem with it only comes when its EVERY game.


Edited by xx984, 27 May 2018 - 12:58 PM.


Bora_BOOM #4 Posted 27 May 2018 - 12:58 PM

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That, and shooting gold has become paramount in - 2 MM. - 1 MM would probably require less gold spam and WG would not like that...

Edit: I would spend more cash on the game if MM would make the game more pleasure to play. At this state I ain't giving them a dime. 


Edited by Bora_BOOM, 27 May 2018 - 01:02 PM.


Tankyouverymuch2 #5 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:48 PM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 27 May 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

As the whole world except some people in a Belarus office know, PMM tanks have nothing to do with the MM problems, the 3/5/7 template with +2/-2 is causing it. PMM tanks aren't even that popular nowadays.

 

Let's forget about the compensation part for a second. What if they removed this template, only kept 5/10 and full same tier MM and made it so PMM tanks would only have +0/-1 MM? Would that be a better solution to this issue? I don't see why PMM needs to be removed at all. If you can't engineer a matchmaking algorithm that can deal with PMM tanks then I don't know how you even managed to make this game.

 

While I disagree with the proposition of PMM tanks being set to always be top tier, I have actually been thinking about the whole "tier 8 is always bottom tier" issue, and I think 3/5/7 MM is what's causing it. Not PMM tanks themselves.

 

+-1MM would require a global rebalance of all premium ammo, something that would take ages...so I don't think that'll ever happen.



arthurwellsley #6 Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:58 PM

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View Postxx984, on 27 May 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

I have to say no to this, I Can see why its suggested and people are voting yes, But after awhile it will just become boring and no fun, ROFL stomping tier 7s most of the time, They just need to buff up the pen on some of them to be able to fight tier 9s just as well as any other tier 8 med/heavy/td can depending on the tank and that will be fine.

 

Being bottom/mid tier is a good thing, its a challenge and plays out differently than a top tier rofl stomp for the same tank, The problem with it only comes when its EVERY game.

 

I agree with xx984.

 

I bought my pref MM to avoid tier X. I knew that I would get a few tier IX matches and was ready for that. I also knew I would get alot of tier VII.

 

Thanks to joggaman for my new signature.



speedphlux #7 Posted 27 May 2018 - 02:01 PM

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The problems started happening around when MM 2.0 got introduced. I have no idea why WG are trying to wipe their butts with PMM Tier 8s clogging up their system. Even if every single player on the EU cluster stops playing PMM T8 tanks, we'd still have the same BS. The problem is not in 3/5/7. The problem is not in +/-2. The problem is the new MM 2.0. When we had the previous MM, with the Battle Weight System in place, we had odd matches, like a single Tier 10 smashing Tier 8s, without a Tier 9 in sight, but games like that happened once a month or so. The problem with the new MM, is that it doesn't account for the tank's capabilities. It thinks that a Tiger II is equal to an O-Ho. Similar Tiers, similar Types - and it stops there. The old system could see a platoon of O-Ho's in the queue and pair them up versus a Tier 9 Heavy and a Tier 7 Medium. Sure, one team might have "a single Tier 9", in what is a 2 tiers spread MM, but the actual result of the battle would've been a lot closer then when the new MM just pairs up that platoon of O-Ho's vs 2 random Tiger IIs or a KV-5 and an IS-6 platoon. The Battle Weight System sure had flaws, but awful games in which you were completely in the hands of the mathematics of the MM, to determine if you win or loose and if you'd have any meaningful impact on the game or not, were extremely rare. Playing PMM tanks back then, was actually good fun. And yes, sometimes your IS-6 or KV-5 would have to face off vs entire team of Tier 9s, but that would likely happen once every 6 months. Or even rarer.

There is absolutely no valid reason for WG to alter the MM of PMM tanks. They were brought exactly because of their PMM state. They don't even have to buff them. They just need to admit that their new MM system is crap and they need to go back to the old one and then tweak the Battle Weight Values of each tanks individually.

ThorgrimBrenadim #8 Posted 27 May 2018 - 02:16 PM

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Not bothering to vote the poll is far too restrictive ie neither are the solution to a real problem wargamming are too stupid to fix.

Tr0gledyte #9 Posted 27 May 2018 - 02:16 PM

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The thing is, if you remove the 3/5/7 template, you are removing +2/-2 MM, and as a result you are removing PMM from tanks that currently have it. Unless you knock their MM down a tier to +0/-1. PMM tanks need to be dealt with before the 3/5/7 template can be removed.

 

View PostThorgrimBrenadim, on 27 May 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

Not bothering to vote the poll is far too restrictive ie neither are the solution to a real problem wargamming are too stupid to fix.

 

It's somewhat of a requirement before they can fix that problem. The other option is to remove PMM, which is what they're testing with the KV-5, but that is causing a lot of outrage. There isn't really any other solution. Perhaps the OP should've been more informative.


Edited by Tr0gledyte, 27 May 2018 - 02:19 PM.


Balc0ra #10 Posted 27 May 2018 - 02:45 PM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 27 May 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

Let's forget about the compensation part for a second. What if they removed this template, only kept 5/10 and full same tier MM and made it so PMM tanks would only have +0/-1 MM? Would that be a better solution to this issue? I don't see why PMM needs to be removed at all. If you can't engineer a matchmaking algorithm that can deal with PMM tanks then I don't know how you even managed to make this game.

 

3-5-7 or 5/10 is not the reason I never play my Pref MM tanks anymore. It's the +0 games. And when I do get 3-5-7. They are usually the 5 more so then anything. So IMO and my experience 3-5-7 is not the main cause for it... but it's not ideal either. As my IS-6 sees way to many +0 games to be fun vs my +2 tier 8's. Thus I suspect tier 8's get pulled into tier X more often too. It would be interesting if WG did "test" on the live for a bit. By removing 3-5-7, 5-10 and equal tier games on tier 8+ for like a week. Just to see how that would work for pref MM tier 8s etc. I'm willing to bet it would improve much for the pref MM tanks, or tier 8 in general. Tier 8 MM was not perfect before either tbh. But it was still better before 3-5-7 etc came. As +0 games was not a thing then. And tier 12 games was removed for a reason back in the day. That same reason is appearing again.

 

But that's just me... With all the topics of late. I've seen many different opinions appear on why pref MM is not working, or why it's working. And not everyone points on +0 games. Some have said 3-5-7 alone is the reason for it, some say GB etc on tier X caused it. Some say FL is making it worse for randoms atm to name a few. And the odd thing is... I can see the logic in every single theory most come with.



Tr0gledyte #11 Posted 27 May 2018 - 03:05 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 27 May 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

 

3-5-7 or 5/10 is not the reason I never play my Pref MM tanks anymore. It's the +0 games. And when I do get 3-5-7. They are usually the 5 more so then anything. So IMO and my experience 3-5-7 is not the main cause for it... but it's not ideal either. As my IS-6 sees way to many +0 games to be fun vs my +2 tier 8's. Thus I suspect tier 8's get pulled into tier X more often too. It would be interesting if WG did "test" on the live for a bit. By removing 3-5-7, 5-10 and equal tier games on tier 8+ for like a week. Just to see how that would work for pref MM tier 8s etc. I'm willing to bet it would improve much for the pref MM tanks, or tier 8 in general. Tier 8 MM was not perfect before either tbh. But it was still better before 3-5-7 etc came. As +0 games was not a thing then. And tier 12 games was removed for a reason back in the day. That same reason is appearing again.

 

But that's just me... With all the topics of late. I've seen many different opinions appear on why pref MM is not working, or why it's working. And not everyone points on +0 games. Some have said 3-5-7 alone is the reason for it, some say GB etc on tier X caused it. Some say FL is making it worse for randoms atm to name a few. And the odd thing is... I can see the logic in every single theory most come with.

 

You missed my point.

 

3/5/7 is the +2/-2 template that is causing so many issues with the gameplay. If this template is removed, however, PMM tanks lose their PMM. Unless you adjust their PMM. The question is, how would you adjust their PMM? WG is doing it by buffing them and asking more money from you if you want to exchange it for another tank. If you don't want another tank, well you just got shafted and lost the PMM you paid for.



FatigueGalaxy #12 Posted 27 May 2018 - 07:04 PM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 27 May 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

 

Let's forget about the compensation part for a second. What if they removed this template, only kept 5/10 and full same tier MM and made it so PMM tanks would only have +0/-1 MM? Would that be a better solution to this issue? I don't see why PMM needs to be removed at all. If you can't engineer a matchmaking algorithm that can deal with PMM tanks then I don't know how you even managed to make this game.

Sure, let's go back to the good old times when PMM tanks were roflstomping tier 6 and 7 tanks all day long. This won't even un-screw situation for PMM tanks and in addition make playing tier 6 and 7 even worse.

And you'll still be against 5 other tier 8 tank which will all superior to your tier 7.5 tank. What are you going to do in your IS-6 or KV-5 against Defenders, VK100.01P, O-Ho, Caernarvon, Patriot, IS-M or even Lowe?

 

PMM were bad for the game from the start. They were never balanced to fight their own tier but somehow they are always really good at dealing with lower tiers. Their rebalance is long overdue and I'm glad they are finally being brought back in line.

 

The real problem is how WG is doing it since they should offer full refund and not ask for gold if you want to exchange your tanks. As for "I bought it because it has PMM" - good, but where were you with your complains when MM 2.0 made PMM useless and more of a liability than a benefit? No point defending PMM now, when it puts you at disadvantage in every single battle.



Tr0gledyte #13 Posted 27 May 2018 - 08:19 PM

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View PostFatigueGalaxy, on 27 May 2018 - 07:04 PM, said:

Sure, let's go back to the good old times when PMM tanks were roflstomping tier 6 and 7 tanks all day long. This won't even un-screw situation for PMM tanks and in addition make playing tier 6 and 7 even worse.

And you'll still be against 5 other tier 8 tank which will all superior to your tier 7.5 tank. What are you going to do in your IS-6 or KV-5 against Defenders, VK100.01P, O-Ho, Caernarvon, Patriot, IS-M or even Lowe?

 

PMM were bad for the game from the start. They were never balanced to fight their own tier but somehow they are always really good at dealing with lower tiers. Their rebalance is long overdue and I'm glad they are finally being brought back in line.

 

The real problem is how WG is doing it since they should offer full refund and not ask for gold if you want to exchange your tanks. As for "I bought it because it has PMM" - good, but where were you with your complains when MM 2.0 made PMM useless and more of a liability than a benefit? No point defending PMM now, when it puts you at disadvantage in every single battle.

 

Tier 8 PMM tanks wouldn't face tier 6 due to +0/-1. They also wouldn't face tier 9, like regular tier 8 tanks. That gives them an overall edge since they will be fighting weaker tanks, on average, than their regular counterparts. Which is the whole point of PMM.

Aimless #14 Posted 27 May 2018 - 08:32 PM

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Let's just make a rollback to +3 and buff the guns. It was fun to blow Kingtigers up in tier V tanks  :)

Tinbawx #15 Posted 27 May 2018 - 09:03 PM

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View PostAimless, on 27 May 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

Let's just make a rollback to +3 and buff the guns. It was fun to blow Kingtigers up in tier V tanks  :)

 

Actually, if you´d roll back the armour creep and then go back +-3 I doubt it´ll be much worse than it is now.

Tr0gledyte #16 Posted 27 May 2018 - 09:10 PM

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View PostTinbawx, on 27 May 2018 - 09:03 PM, said:

 

Actually, if you´d roll back the armour creep and then go back +-3 I doubt it´ll be much worse than it is now.

 

The game was never better than when it had +3 MM. I remember the good old days when the King Tiger was pretty good and heavy tanks had relevant armor, with weakspots where almost anyone could pen them. With premium tanks that weren't better than their tech-tree counterparts. Those were the glory days of WoT, it's been declining ever since.

Agent_327 #17 Posted 27 May 2018 - 09:15 PM

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No thank you that would be serious pay2win.

Tinbawx #18 Posted 27 May 2018 - 09:28 PM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 27 May 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

 

The game was never better than when it had +3 MM. I remember the good old days when the King Tiger was pretty good and heavy tanks had relevant armor, with weakspots where almost anyone could pen them. With premium tanks that weren't better than their tech-tree counterparts. Those were the glory days of WoT, it's been declining ever since.

 

I pretty much agree, imo it was better than it is now. Though I think the era immediately after the +-2 mm change was even better, +-2 without armour creep was really enjoyable to play imo.

Nishi_Kinuyo #19 Posted 27 May 2018 - 11:02 PM

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I actually kinda like the whole 3/5/7 setup, because even when bottomtier, I'll know there'll be plenty of targets my tank can take on.

And because I know there will be only a few tanks that can really ruin my day in a match, so flanking avoiding them will be easier.



Bulldog_Drummond #20 Posted 28 May 2018 - 01:33 AM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 27 May 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

 

I bought my pref MM to avoid tier X. I knew that I would get a few tier IX matches and was ready for that. I also knew I would get alot of tier VII.

 

Precisely






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