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Regarding the current "Perfecting Preferential Matchmaking" rant


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CaptainCombat #1 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:13 PM

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So then yes, I must admit I am not always up to date with all the current op tanks and shenanigans going on in World Of Tanks, and quite frankly I have been a supporter of this game for quite very long and I probably will be in the future, and as most if not all if you would know, that there was a rant (and probably still is a rant regarding the preferential tank aspect.

A lot of Youtubers have uploaded videos regarding this. Well today Mighty Jingles uploaded one and his video refers to a comment that was made on Quickybaby's video about the rant which is a very interesting read. And even though we all know that the whole thing of Pref tanks causing the match maker to go all haywire is a lie. This is an interesting insight in it. If the person who commented is actually a World Of Tank player, I want to thank you for doing the bit of research, if you will, in the subject and giving your analysis. And if you compare this analysis to the statement that Wargaming gave regarding the Pref tanks then it is no conspiracy theory anymore...but they indeed do not care about the customers/players partaking in the game. I would love to hear your input regarding this. And I am not just adding this to the forum for input but also to make everyone aware of this who did not read this or who did not know about this.

I have no idea if I uploaded the image correctly because it kept on giving errors, but I attached the file to this post. But hope you guys are able to open it.

Here is the link to the video https://www.youtube....h?v=LRRSH9uEYA0

 

Seems like I made a mistake there aswell...follow this link to view the image. https://ibb.co/juVhdJ


Edited by CaptainCombat, 30 May 2018 - 12:14 PM.


RamRaid90 #2 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:29 PM

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The problem I see with those numbers is that each PMM tank is seperate to the others in the  fact that they will press battle at different times, be pulled into different battles etc.

 

So even though it looks a small number, the MM has to find 5 tier IXs, 14 other tier VIIIs (some without PMM and some others with) or 5 tier VIIs + 7 tier VIs to match EACH pmm tank in the battle que.

 

Thats alot of tanks to shuffle around and make sense of when those 176k PMM tanks have a special rule added into the mix. Thats what some people are not understanding, it is not down to solely those tanks being played, its down to the effect that those tanks have on others.

 

Simply  writing down the numbers doesn't make it mean anything.



CmdRatScabies #3 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:45 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

The problem I see with those numbers is that each PMM tank is seperate to the others in the  fact that they will press battle at different times, be pulled into different battles etc.

 

So even though it looks a small number, the MM has to find 5 tier IXs, 14 other tier VIIIs (some without PMM and some others with) or 5 tier VIIs + 7 tier VIs to match EACH pmm tank in the battle que.

 

Thats alot of tanks to shuffle around and make sense of when those 176k PMM tanks have a special rule added into the mix. Thats what some people are not understanding, it is not down to solely those tanks being played, its down to the effect that those tanks have on others.

 

 Whoever designed the MM algorithm would need to be pretty incompetent to allow PMM tanks to cause this issue.  I detect a MM design issue that WG has latched onto as an excuse.

lonigus #4 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:47 PM

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Klaus and his rant was one of the best rants on the WoT pref mm. changes I ever saw. I lost it at the end of his video.

CaptainCombat #5 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:49 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

The problem I see with those numbers is that each PMM tank is seperate to the others in the  fact that they will press battle at different times, be pulled into different battles etc.

 

So even though it looks a small number, the MM has to find 5 tier IXs, 14 other tier VIIIs (some without PMM and some others with) or 5 tier VIIs + 7 tier VIs to match EACH pmm tank in the battle que.

 

Thats alot of tanks to shuffle around and make sense of when those 176k PMM tanks have a special rule added into the mix. Thats what some people are not understanding, it is not down to solely those tanks being played, its down to the effect that those tanks have on others.

 

Simply  writing down the numbers doesn't make it mean anything.

 

I agree to an extent, but even if that is the case, you must multiply the percentage by 30 (if only one preferential tank is in a game at a time) and it still seems small percentage wise I think.

SuperOlsson #6 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:49 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

The problem I see with those numbers is that each PMM tank is seperate to the others in the  fact that they will press battle at different times, be pulled into different battles etc.

 

So even though it looks a small number, the MM has to find 5 tier IXs, 14 other tier VIIIs (some without PMM and some others with) or 5 tier VIIs + 7 tier VIs to match EACH pmm tank in the battle que.

 

Thats alot of tanks to shuffle around and make sense of when those 176k PMM tanks have a special rule added into the mix. Thats what some people are not understanding, it is not down to solely those tanks being played, its down to the effect that those tanks have on others.

 

Simply  writing down the numbers doesn't make it mean anything.

Less than 5% of tier 8’s are pmm, and even in worst case scenario, that the pmms are perfectly spread out, they would draw 19 normal mm tier 8s (since pmm is mostly tier 8-9), getting a tier 8-9 game in normal tier 8 tank is considered lucky these days. I doubt there would be any noticeable change in tier 8 mm if all pmms were removed.



RamRaid90 #7 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:50 PM

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View PostCmdRatScabies, on 30 May 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

 

 Whoever designed the MM algorithm would need to be pretty incompetent to allow PMM tanks to cause this issue.  I detect a MM design issue that WG has latched onto as an excuse.

 

As I said, it isn't just as simple as there are only this many, so therefore they cannot cause a problem.

 

Of course they cause problems, the scale of that problem cannot be known by anyone without access to the way the MM works internally.

 

This is not to say I agree with WGs approach, I don't.

 

However it's not a simple issue of "numbers don't lie"



Sirebellus #8 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:53 PM

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Plus the fact that each player has a counter in the MM to ensure they can't be bottom tier in the 3-5-7 more than 4 games in a row - you may not be top tier for 20-25 games in a row, but even at T8 every 5th game will not have T10 in it, so that makes it even more complicated for the MM

 

Still... whatever the complications it shouldn't be beyond WG programmers to shift the MM emphasis towards 5-10 and same Tier and away from 3-5-7



RamRaid90 #9 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:56 PM

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View PostSuperOlsson, on 30 May 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Less than 5% of tier 8’s are pmm, and even in worst case scenario, that the pmms are perfectly spread out, they would draw 19 normal mm tier 8s (since pmm is mostly tier 8-9), getting a tier 8-9 game in normal tier 8 tank is considered lucky these days. I doubt there would be any noticeable change in tier 8 mm if all pmms were removed.

 

But you cant group all the tanks together, it's not that easy.

 

Each of those 176,000 PMM tanks has it's own MM. Which means each one affects another 14 tanks in the que. Some of them will affect each other, most of them won't.



_Sensation_ #10 Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:57 PM

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Takes a lot of others tanks to get em into battle is BS. There are [edited]100k+ ppl online and maybe like what? max 2-3k pref mm tanks at the same? So stop crying WG and fix yo god damn MM

LordMuffin #11 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:03 PM

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The issue with PMM tanks.

In current MM T10 tanks are sometimes forced to play single tier or with T9 tanks, meaning that the MM CAN'T create the prefered template.

If WG remove PMM tanks, and make them regular, then they would have increased the number or regular T8 tanks in the matchmaking pool, which would make it possible to create more 3-5-7 games with T10 as top tier,and less single T10 games.

CmdRatScabies #12 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:05 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

 

 the scale of that problem cannot be known by anyone without access to the way the MM works internally.

 

I think we could guess that it's 90% bull poop.  As many have pointed out, if it was such a game breaker then they would have stopped selling them and yet you can still buy a bunch of PMM tanks - some are even in the tech tree for gold.

SovietBias #13 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:09 PM

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I got to the same numbers by looking at the data from WoT news, (EU server stats > all vehicles > last month >  tier 8 > 'total matches played' ) which is roughly 5% of tier 8s being Prefer. MM. In fact, Skorpion G + Progetto make up for more than double of all other prefer. MM vehicles combined. 

 

View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

The problem I see with those numbers is that each PMM tank is seperate to the others in the  fact that they will press battle at different times, be pulled into different battles etc.

 

So even though it looks a small number, the MM has to find 5 tier IXs, 14 other tier VIIIs (some without PMM and some others with) or 5 tier VIIs + 7 tier VIs to match EACH pmm tank in the battle que.

 

Thats alot of tanks to shuffle around and make sense of when those 176k PMM tanks have a special rule added into the mix. Thats what some people are not understanding, it is not down to solely those tanks being played, its down to the effect that those tanks have on others.

 

Simply  writing down the numbers doesn't make it mean anything.

 

indeed, PMM guarantees that it will be a tier 9 max battle. However, there can be more than one prefer. MM per battle, and tier IX's are needed in the exact same ratio for the 3-5-7 anyway. (The issue pointed in the news article)

 

To be fair, it's more likely that the 3-5-7 template being the priority over other templates is causing the issue and adding to the pool of tier VIII's that can be matched with Tier X is just going to make it easier to form 3-5-7 battles.


Edited by SovietBias, 30 May 2018 - 01:09 PM.


RamRaid90 #14 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:14 PM

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View PostSovietBias, on 30 May 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

I got to the same numbers by looking at the data from WoT news, (EU server stats > all vehicles > last month >  tier 8 > 'total matches played' ) which is roughly 5% of tier 8s being Prefer. MM. In fact, Skorpion G + Progetto make up for more than double of all other prefer. MM vehicles combined. 

 

 

indeed, PMM guarantees that it will be a tier 9 max battle. However, there can be more than one prefer. MM per battle, and tier IX's are needed in the exact same ratio for the 3-5-7 anyway. (The issue pointed in the news article)

 

To be fair, it's more likely that the 3-5-7 template being the priority over other templates is causing the issue and adding to the pool of tier VIII's that can be matched with Tier X is just going to make it easier to form 3-5-7 battles.

 

What you're also failing to consider is the domino effect it has on other tanks.

 

1 pmm tank in the queue effects the MM of 14 other tanks, 2 affects the MM of between 28-29 tanks, 3 affects between 42-44 others etc etc.

 

As I said, it's not just the issue of the low population of the tanks in general but the snowball effect they have on the MM as a whole.


Edited by RamRaid90, 30 May 2018 - 01:15 PM.


_b_ #15 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:15 PM

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They are doing it only hoping to get more money out of us. 

 

WG-EU have proven pretty much that customer happiness isn't much of a priority. Money is. Customer happiness only comes into play of it endagers income!

 

So whatever brainfart they come up with from a gameplay point of view, we are wrong considering it as such. To them it makes perfect sense since some #&@+/? in sales and financial dept have said it's a good idea.

 

For me, having thrown money at them last 5 years (first two'ish spent as f2p)..so seven plus years p(l)aying this game...they'd better make sure I end up happy or else I'm out giving them any more money!



Ziurawka #16 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:15 PM

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I wonder how many people play their PMM tier VIII tanks as the highest tier tank they ever play. 

Like I do. 

Simply cause I want to skip seeing all the broken crap WG keeps releasing at tier X. 

If that's a large number then maybe this is the reason for what they're proposing. 

 

The argument about PMM tanks affecting other tier VIII's queue is total bullcrap.

PMM tanks induce 5/10 tier IX MM which should be still more comfortable for tier VIII than 3/5/7 tier X games. 

Or does anyone disagree?

The only tier it can potentially 'negatively' affect is tier X who will get more all tier X games (as tier IX and VIII will be busy with PMM tanks).

If you ask me tier X should have it's own separate game mode anyway...

But then again - it's the largest source of profit for WG (not tier VIII prems like many people still seem to believe).



SuperOlsson #17 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:20 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

 

As I said, it isn't just as simple as there are only this many, so therefore they cannot cause a problem.

 

Of course they cause problems, the scale of that problem cannot be known by anyone without access to the way the MM works internally.

 

This is not to say I agree with WGs approach, I don't.

 

However it's not a simple issue of "numbers don't lie"

If it really were such a big issue as they have said for many years they could have just stopped selling them, I know it’s rocket science and all to remove them from tech tree sales within 4 years as since if you remove one (t-34-3) because it breaks mm, another one seems to pop back in (jgtiger 88), also if removed they seem to find their way back anyways after a while (is-6). But at least they could not pop them back as special sales in the premium shop.



SovietBias #18 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:22 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

 

What you're also failing to consider is the domino effect it has on other tanks.

 

1 pmm tank in the queue effects the MM of 14 other tanks, 2 affects the MM of between 28-29 tanks, 3 affects between 42-44 others etc etc.

 

As I said, it's not just the issue of the low population of the tanks in general but the snowball effect they have on the MM as a whole.

 

It does not scale like that, as there can be multiple vehicles in the same match with prefer. MM. It may happen, but that's the worst case scenario.

 

And if I needed to ease the calculations, I'd group them together when creating a match, although I don't know if WG actually does that.


Edited by SovietBias, 30 May 2018 - 01:23 PM.


LordMuffin #19 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:26 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

 

What you're also failing to consider is the domino effect it has on other tanks.

 

1 pmm tank in the queue effects the MM of 14 other tanks, 2 affects the MM of between 28-29 tanks, 3 affects between 42-44 others etc etc.

 

As I said, it's not just the issue of the low population of the tanks in general but the snowball effect they have on the MM as a whole.

The snowball is small, very small.

 

Number of T9 tanks ~1,5 million.

Number of T8 PMM tanks ~100k

It effects, if each and single one start a battle with no other T8 PMM tanks (highly likely, yes?).

1 million T9 tanks are drawn here.

 

How would this effect regular T8?

Regular T8 ~2 million.

In worst case scenario, there are 14 T8 with 10 T9, so 1.4 T8 per T9. Then add some T10 on top. 

The T9 needs less 750k tanks. And then we don't have any T9 tanks left.

And now we god, 1.25 million T8 tanks as top tiered...

 

Now this is of course impossible.

 

The 100k T8 PMM tanks, if they are the only T8 PMM tanks in each of there battles every time, need 19 other T8 tanks to fill the matchmaker.

Which means that more or less EVERY other T8 tank would be drawn into the T8 PMM matches.

Like 100k left over of regular T8 tanks. 

If they meet T9 every time.

 

If WG actually mean what they write, and that PMM tanks is a big issue for the MM (which they are indicating), then the most sensible option is to remove them from the premium shop, like ages ago.

What amount of stupidity is needed to leave a tank in the premium shop that causes great issues for the matchmaker for 1 whole year.

 



Balc0ra #20 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:28 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 30 May 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

The problem I see with those numbers is that each PMM tank is seperate to the others in the  fact that they will press battle at different times, be pulled into different battles etc.

 

Exactly. That and going by all the topics and comments on those CC videos. The feeling most have about it differs greatly. Some don't see it as an issue as they get perfectly fine, fair and variated MM with their pref MM tanks. Others feel the get an easier and more favorable MM with them, and thus they favor playing those more then other tier 8 prems. Then you have me and a few others that say they get equal tier games more then anything. And that might be fine for some. But with 175 pen vs the HT meta now. It's less then ideal and why I hate my IS-6 atm, and hardly play it. So for me and my experience. The pref MM is causing issues on tier 8. As all the equal tier games might affect the +2 MM tanks getting more +2 games. Others ofc.. don't feel the same way. 

 

But... if you ask me. The easy fix vs removing pref MM, is by sacking 3-5-7 and equal tier games on tier 8+. I don't have an issue with 5-10 tbh. It did not do any good as is anyway. And WG removed tier 12 MM for a reason back in the day. And most do agree that tier 8 MM was better before the current MM changes. Not perfect , but better. Even some of the CC's ranting about the MM have said equal tier games on tier 5 to 7 are fun, and needs to be a thing. But even Circon have said pure tier 8 and X games are the worst "not the word he used, as that would be edited anyway". But always has a blast with a pure tier 7 game. And I agree. I love equal tier games on some tiers. But on other tiers...less so depending on what tank I drive. 






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