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WG blatantly lies about preferential mm tanks.


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lonigus #1 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:07 PM

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Courtesy of the user "Matt" from youtube. 

 

I quote:

 

Block Quote

 All data presented is from www.vbaddict.net from the last 30 days, with tanks with at least 1,000 battles.

 

Total tanks in battles: about 12,465,220

Total Tier 8 tank appearances: 3,719,187

Total Tier 8 Preferential MM Premium (PMM) tank appearances: 176,185

Total Tier 8 Premium tank appearances: 1,793,644

Total Tier 8 standard tank appearances: 1,749,358

Tier 9 tank appearances: 1,892,439

Tier 10 tank appearances: 1,263,886

 

All together, Tier 8 Preferential Matchmaking (PMM) tanks make up about 1.4% of the total tanks played. Add in the tier 7 PMM tanks, and you're still just shy of 2% of the total tanks played.

In fact, only two PMM tanks at any tier even made the top 100 played tanks, the SuperPershing (#65, 48K battles) and the E25 (#73, 47K battles). The KV-5, Wargaming's apparent problem child, ranks #398 with just over 6K battles played, or about 0.05% of the total. Wargaming's excuse is a complete fabrication. If 1.4% of the tanks played are disrupting the matchmaking, there's a bigger underlying problem with the matchmaking. I suspect that the problem with matchmaking is that 29% of the tanks that enter a battle are tier 8. Only 15% are tier 9, and only 10% are tier 10. The 3/5/7 matchmaking model fits this perfectly. There are twice as many tier 8 tanks played as there are tier 9 and 10 combined. Tiers 6 and 7 are 14% and 13%, respectively.

 

 

The root problem with matchmaking would appear to be economics, both in-game and real-world. Tier 8 premium tanks are the most profitable, and thus, the most often played. There are more tier 8 tank appearances than any other tier, and more than half of these appearances are in premium tanks. Not coincidentally, there are 102 available tanks at tier 8, 50 at tier 9, and 56 at tier 10. Of these 102 tier 8 tanks, 56 are premium tanks. You read that correctly. There are the same number of tier 8 premium tanks as there are tier 10 tanks, and 6 more than there are tier 9 tanks. It's no wonder that there are so many more games played at tier 8. The horrible economics at tiers 9 and 10 force players to use tier 8 premium tanks to remain profitable overall.

 

Why are there so many tier 8 premiums in-game? Look at all the specials in the premium store. Every week since 1.0 launched, it seems like there's been a different deal on a tier 8 premium. I haven't kept a close enough watch to be sure. The biggest real money makers for WG are tier 8 premiums, because the biggest credit earners for us are tier 8 premiums.

 

Sorry, Wargaming, but your excuse just doesn't hold water.

 

So... Does 1.4% of preferential mm. tanks really pull in "escessive" (quoted WGs own words) amounts of tier 9s into them? Are you really that dense to think we are that stupid to believe you?

 

Posted Image

 

Lowering a 4 to 6 second MM time? Is that really one of the goals. Are you actually serious? I would GLADLY take even 1 minute queue times if it guaranteed me a better and more fair matchmaker. HOLY HELL!

 

And "starts grabbing an excessive amount of tier 9 tanks" EXCESSIVE? Excuse me, but WHAT? :hiding:

 

Tier 9 tank appearances: 1,892,439 - Total Tier 8 Preferential MM Premium (PMM) tank appearances: 176,185.

 

PS: lets keep it civil.


Edited by lonigus, 30 May 2018 - 01:11 PM.


steview162 #2 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:43 PM

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The whole thing, from the tone and wording of their original post, has a strong whiff of the spin doctors touch. Blaming a minority for major troubles, then hoping the majority don't mind screwing over the minority. Teensy bit nasty. In my polite opinion.

Edited by steview162, 30 May 2018 - 01:45 PM.


eldrak #3 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:44 PM

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Easy fix:

Extend queue time slightly for pmm tanks.

Throw more of them into the same battle.

 

For the rest of the MM it would pretty much be as they didn't exit then.

 

Better fix:

Let MM create more 1 and 2 tier matches (like we had for some time after it was introduced).

Pmms will slot into those battles

 

Yes, their explanation doesn't make sense.

It doesn't hold logically.

 

If the tier 8 pmms suck up all the tier 9 tanks into their games, then the tier X can't go into 3/5/7 because there's no tier 9 to fill those so they would go to pure tier X

I've never seen a match with 3 tier X and 12 tier 8. Though I do have seen 2/4/9 happen.


 

PauI #4 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:48 PM

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View Posteldrak, on 30 May 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

Easy fix:

Extend queue time slightly for pmm tanks.

Throw more of them into the same battle.

 

For the rest of the MM it would pretty much be as they didn't exit then.

 

Better fix:

Let MM create more 1 and 2 tier matches (like we had for some time after it was introduced).

Pmms will slot into those battles

 

you miss the point....they do not want your fix, or mine, or the comunity's fix....they want to sell more gold for the trade...they want to have more prem rounds flying around because it creates a demand for prem time and prem tanks .....cuz profit :D

arthurwellsley #5 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:50 PM

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1. WG should not take away pref MM from pixels already sold for cash, unless they pay cash back to the owners of pref MM pixels.

2. WG post "perfecting preferential MM" clearly would not stand up to any detailed numerical analysis, and is pure PR hyperbole.

3. WG have been saying prior to patch 9.18 that they wish to buff and sell more KV-5 and IS6. Which they have repeatedly said is "difficult". It is not. Buff the penetration slightly and they will sell again. There is absolutely no need to remove pref MM from those pixels.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #6 Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:51 PM

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View PostPauI, on 30 May 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

 

you miss the point....they do not want your fix, or mine, or the comunity's fix....they want to sell more gold for the trade...they want to have more prem rounds flying around because it creates a demand for prem time and prem tanks .....cuz profit :D

 

Exactly, someone called it "WG tier 10 crusade".

Warzey #7 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:07 PM

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Well we can't say for sure that WG is flat out lying about whole PMM problem since we don't know exactly how MM works. On the other hand, we can say for sure that PMM tanks are not causing big problems, because if they did WG would remove them from the shop. 

 

Block Quote

 And "starts grabbing an excessive amount of tier 9 tanks" EXCESSIVE? Excuse me, but WHAT? :hiding:

 

Tier 9 tank appearances: 1,892,439 - Total Tier 8 Preferential MM Premium (PMM) tank appearances: 176,185.

 

Maybe because appearance of 1 PMM tank is enough to "screw things up" as WG claims?  

 

On a side note, why do you guys automatically assume that buffed versions of PMM tanks will be crap? I mean WG would need to try really hard to make those tanks worse than they currently are. Sure, people who bought those tanks specifically because of the PMM are upset, but my guess is that those people are vocal minority. 



Element6_TheSprout #8 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:16 PM

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View PostWarzey, on 30 May 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

Maybe because appearance of 1 PMM tank is enough to "screw things up" as WG claims?  

My thought as well, 1 tank makes up for 3.33% of an entire team. 

 

Another aspect is that PMM tanks might not be as low as 1.4% all the time, so they would cause more issues if they were something like 3% during a few hour period, for example.



Balc0ra #9 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:21 PM

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Here is my issue with that. It's from the last 30 days. At a point when tier 8 pref MM tanks are not widely played. If you compared it when 3-5-7 was added, vs now recently. I suspect it would show a different story. As 3-5-7 and the changes it did to MM is why I don't play my pref MM tank anymore. 

 

That and the stats are only reflective of the sites users based on recent dossier uploads. Not the playerbase as a whole or taken directly from the server. Something to keep in mind. 



Warzey #10 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:28 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 30 May 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

1. WG should not take away pref MM from pixels already sold for cash, unless they pay cash back to the owners of pref MM pixels.

2. WG post "perfecting preferential MM" clearly would not stand up to any detailed numerical analysis, and is pure PR hyperbole.

3. WG have been saying prior to patch 9.18 that they wish to buff and sell more KV-5 and IS6. Which they have repeatedly said is "difficult". It is not. Buff the penetration slightly and they will sell again. There is absolutely no need to remove pref MM from those pixels.

 

Here are my thoughts on this. Let's assume that WG claims have some truth to them. If WG wanted to sell more PMM tanks and make them popular, they would pretty much need to buff all those tanks to the level of an actual tier 8 tank, basically improve their tier from 7,5 to 8. That decision would make PMM tanks massively popular in my opinion, because you're getting a proper tier 8 tank that can't see tier 10 tanks. All of a sudden you have loads of PMM tanks driving around and what used to be "kind of a problem but not really" suddenly becomes a big problem. 



_b_ #11 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:33 PM

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What, WG-EU being creative about what is truth? Neh, never...impossibru!

lonigus #12 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:35 PM

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View PostWarzey, on 30 May 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

Well we can't say for sure that WG is flat out lying about whole PMM problem since we don't know exactly how MM works. On the other hand, we can say for sure that PMM tanks are not causing big problems, because if they did WG would remove them from the shop. 

 

 

Maybe because appearance of 1 PMM tank is enough to "screw things up" as WG claims?  

 

On a side note, why do you guys automatically assume that buffed versions of PMM tanks will be crap? I mean WG would need to try really hard to make those tanks worse than they currently are. Sure, people who bought those tanks specifically because of the PMM are upset, but my guess is that those people are vocal minority. 

 

The problem is that its absolutely terribly handled by WG. The tanks were never the problem. The problem is the MM. Period. You say whatever you want or whatever lie you believe WG is telling you, but I and many others had enough. 

 

I dont care if I have to fight tier 10s SOMETIMES like before the new MM. If i also get roughly the same amount of middle and top tier games. Currently its not the case with any tier 8 tank so the problem is a general MM one. 


Edited by lonigus, 30 May 2018 - 02:39 PM.


Simeon85 #13 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:39 PM

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View Postlonigus, on 30 May 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

Tier 9 tank appearances: 1,892,439 - Total Tier 8 Preferential MM Premium (PMM) tank appearances: 176,185.

 

 

Basically if you took the single worst case scenario and every single pref-MM tier 8 appeared in a separate game, at a separate time in the MM queue, then those 176k pref-MM tanks would need to each grab 5 tier 9 tanks to make games. 

 

That would be around 880,000 tier 9 tanks in the worst possible scenario dragged to make games with a pref-MM tank, that would still leave over 1 million tier 9 tanks that would need to be accommodated into other games.

 

If we then took those 1 million tier 9 tanks, and looked at the different permutations of games they would be involved in then we see -

 

1. 3-5-7 with tier 10s as top tier, so 7 tier 8 tanks involved.

2. 3-5-7 with tier 9s as top tier, so 5 tier 8 tanks involved.

3. All tier 9 games, so 0 tier 8 tanks involved. 

4. 5-10 games with the tier 9 as top tier, so 10 tier 8 tanks involved. 

5. 5-10 games with the tier 10s as top tier, so no tier 8 tanks involved. 

 

(note this is just to make one team, it would be mirror matched on the other side)

 

We do not know the ratios of how those games are created, 3-5-7 has priority though, we know that, but for the purposes of this calculations lets just say each of those 5 different games has the same chance of happening.

 

Therefore, if we look at the number of tier 9 tanks needed to make those 5 different types of games, it's 5 + 3 + 15 + 5 + 10 = 38 

 

If we look at the number of tier 8 tanks needed to create those 5 different game types, it's 7 + 5 + 10 = 22

 

Therefore, even if we hypothesis that every single pref-MM tier 8, drags 5 tier 9 tanks away from the MM, (the worse case scenario) we know from above that there are approximately still 1 million tier 9 tanks that need to form games via the template system.

 

These games will involve tier 8s (as I have shown above).

 

We know from above to get our 5 different types of games that involve tier 9s, that for every 38 tier 9 tanks, 22 tier 8 tanks will have to be involved. 

 

Which boils down to needing 0.57 tier 8 tanks for every 1 tier 9 tank

 

Which from our remaining 1 million tier 9 tanks, 570k tier 8 tanks are needed to form their games, even IF we exclude the pref-MM tier 8s from the calculation and assume that every single pref-MM tier 8 drags 5 tier 9s with it. (which in reality won't happen). 

 

So the WG claim is BS, even in the worse case scenario where every single pref-MM tier 8 'grabs an excessive number of tier 9s' as they claim (so basically 5 tier 9s for every single pref-MM tank, which assumes two or more pref-MM tanks don't get into the same games, or pref-MM tanks don't get into all tier 8 games or 3-5-7 or 5-10 games as top tier) then there are still over half a million tier 8 tanks that have be dragged into games with tier 9 tanks.

 

And that is not even including the tier 10s! 

 

 

 



lonigus #14 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:42 PM

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As usual thanks Simeon for the math behind the numbers.

Warzey #15 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:46 PM

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View Postlonigus, on 30 May 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

 

The problem is that its absolutely terribly handled by WG. The tanks were never the problem. The problem is the MM. Period. You say whatever you want or whatever lie you believe WG is telling you, but I and many others had enough. 

 

I dont care if I have to fight tier 10s SOMETIMES like before the new MM. If i also get roughly the same amount of middle and top tier games. Currently its not the case with any tier 8 tank so the problem is a general MM one. 

 

If you decided that WG is lying then there is not really much to discuss on that subject. 

I personally don't have a problem with current MM (as long as I'm not playing a tier 8 medium), that being said I didn't have a problem with the old MM either. 



Simeon85 #16 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:53 PM

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If you apply the same theory to the tier 10s, which are easier, because there are only 3 types of games the tier 10s can get in -

 

1. 3-5-7 as top tier. 

2. 5-10 as top tier with 10 tier 9s.

3. All tier 10.

 

Again to make one team there, then you would need 23 tier 10s, and again assuming all those games were equal (which again they are not, 3-5-7 has priority), than for every 23 tier 10 tanks we need 7 tier 8s, or around 0.3 tier 8s of every 1 tier 10 tank.

 

Using those numbers -

 

Block Quote

Tier 10 tank appearances: 1,263,886

 

Would mean around 380,000 tier 8 tanks were needed to satisfy the MM demands of tier 10 tanks IF all template systems had equal priority

 

All the prefs do in this instance is slightly detract from the pool of available tier 8 tanks at any time, but as they are so small they don't have much impact. 

 

The problem is the template system and the priority of 3-5-7, any impact the pref-MM tanks have is minimal. 

 

All changing the prefs to normal MM does is slightly increase the pool of tier 8 tanks available for tier 10 games, and require less tier 9s to make 5-10 or 3-5-7 template games with pref-MM tanks. 

 

But there are still like huge proportions of tier 8 tanks needed to make up the games of tier 9 and 10 tanks because the template system forces the 3-5-7, even if you completely exclude the pref-MM tanks from the equation completely.  

 


Edited by Simeon85, 30 May 2018 - 03:02 PM.


Rati_Festa #17 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:54 PM

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The fact the maths once exposed doesnt add up doesnt surprise me in the least, anyone with a vague knowledge of high tier games wiffed something fishy about the statement.

My real gripe with it is they are either crap at working out statisic based algorithms or they know full well the data behind the decision and they are spinning lies and think we are too stupid to work it out.... neither conclusion really fills me with much optimism about thier decision making. The fact that they are willing to mess with tanks bought for cash so blatantly and with little regard for the customers ( or even the customers perception ) is beyond belief really.

Ive told 3 people this week not to touch this game for the foreseeable future... nothing like word of mouth to kill a game.

wsatnutter #18 Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:57 PM

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War gaming have lied for many years now as in trying to dupe the player base and for that they get no money from me except at xmas when  I sent some boxes and a m8 got the Hype 59 

The trouble is they think we are stupid and that we don't know how to grow sprouts or how the MM works but we do dont  we 



Element6_TheSprout #19 Posted 30 May 2018 - 03:02 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 30 May 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

 

Basically if you took the single worst case scenario and every single pref-MM tier 8 appeared in a separate game, at a separate time in the MM queue, then those 176k pref-MM tanks would need to each grab 5 tier 9 tanks to make games. 

 

That would be around 880,000 tier 9 tanks in the worst possible scenario dragged to make games with a pref-MM tank, that would still leave over 1 million tier 9 tanks that would need to be accommodated into other games.

 

If we then took those 1 million tier 9 tanks, and looked at the different permutations of games they would be involved in then we see -

 

1. 3-5-7 with tier 10s as top tier, so 7 tier 8 tanks involved.

2. 3-5-7 with tier 9s as top tier, so 5 tier 8 tanks involved.

3. All tier 9 games, so 0 tier 8 tanks involved. 

4. 5-10 games with the tier 9 as top tier, so 10 tier 8 tanks involved. 

5. 5-10 games with the tier 10s as top tier, so no tier 8 tanks involved. 

 

(note this is just to make one team, it would be mirror matched on the other side)

 

We do not know the ratios of how those games are created, 3-5-7 has priority though, we know that, but for the purposes of this calculations lets just say each of those 5 different games has the same chance of happening.

 

Therefore, if we look at the number of tier 9 tanks needed to make those 5 different types of games, it's 5 + 3 + 15 + 5 + 10 = 38 

 

If we look at the number of tier 8 tanks needed to create those 5 different game types, it's 7 + 5 + 10 = 22

 

Therefore, even if we hypothesis that every single pref-MM tier 8, drags 5 tier 9 tanks away from the MM, (the worse case scenario) we know from above that there are approximately still 1 million tier 9 tanks that need to form games via the template system.

 

These games will involve tier 8s (as I have shown above).

 

We know from above to get our 5 different types of games that involve tier 9s, that for every 38 tier 9 tanks, 22 tier 8 tanks will have to be involved. 

 

Which boils down to needing 0.57 tier 8 tanks for every 1 tier 9 tank

 

Which from our remaining 1 million tier 9 tanks, 570k tier 8 tanks are needed to form their games, even IF we exclude the pref-MM tier 8s from the calculation and assume that every single pref-MM tier 8 drags 5 tier 9s with it. (which in reality won't happen). 

 

So the WG claim is BS, even in the worse case scenario where every single pref-MM tier 8 'grabs an excessive number of tier 9s' as they claim (so basically 5 tier 9s for every single pref-MM tank, which assumes two or more pref-MM tanks don't get into the same games, or pref-MM tanks don't get into all tier 8 games or 3-5-7 or 5-10 games as top tier) then there are still over half a million tier 8 tanks that have be dragged into games with tier 9 tanks.

 

And that is not even including the tier 10s! 

 

 

 

Doesn't this calculation assume that all tanks are available at the same time, and the ratios explained by OP? I would guess there are different levels that PMM tanks influence the queue, for example at daytime with 80k online and late evening with 30k online. Calculating the total average doesn't paint the entire picture, just as a player's average WR of 50% doesn't show the streaks where sessions end with 38% WR or 62% WR.

 

 



Simeon85 #20 Posted 30 May 2018 - 03:12 PM

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View PostElement6_TheSprout, on 30 May 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

Doesn't this calculation assume that all tanks are available at the same time, and the ratios explained by OP? I would guess there are different levels that PMM tanks influence the queue, for example at daytime with 80k online and late evening with 30k online. Calculating the total average doesn't paint the entire picture, just as a player's average WR of 50% doesn't show the streaks where sessions end with 38% WR or 62% WR.

 

 

 

Yes it does, but then the number of pref-MM tanks at any one time is unlikely to change that much.

 

The number of tier 8s, 9 and 10s are any one time may fluctuate more, but then I was calculating the worse case scenario anyway, in that every single pref-MM tank at any one time would be forming separate games, which is going to wipe out any difference such a fluctuation in the ratios would make.

 

It was done to show that even if you took the pref-MM tier 8s out of the equation, huge numbers of tier 8 tanks are needed to make games for tier 9 and 10 tanks, even if as WG claimed, that every pref-MM tank was dragging tier 9s out of the queue.

 

 






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