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Gringo97 #1 Posted 30 May 2018 - 09:59 PM

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Hi, i was wondering for a while why one of the things that received the most complaints since the release of this game hasn‘t changed too much and never had explored any interesting options. I am of course, talking about premium shells, and i will put down a suggestion that i find interesting, still profitable for wargaming and extremely good for the ones that prefer not to dig too much into premium rounds

 

1: Premium rounds should buff one, two, or all three of the next parameters: velocity of shell, alpha damage of shell, penetration of shell, depending on the type of the tank(light,medium,heavy,tank destroyer)

2: Tanks should be able to carry only a max 20% premium rounds of the max magazine capacity -> this is a pretty interesting idea: for now, between a tier 10 medium tank that carries 30 rounds vs a medium tank that carries 50 rounds is not a huge difference, as in 99% of the games u won‘t fire more than 30 rounds,but with the premium capacity change, the ammo capacity will be an important stat for a tank(so will add more balancing variety for this game-which imo is in a pretty bad place, as many tanks share way too many similarities) -> so with that, the 50 ammo medium tank will be able to carry 4 more premium rounds(10vs6) which is quite a differance.

 

Comin back to 1, i will give some suggestions reffering to tier 10:

-> Premium rounds for heavy tanks should increase penetration by 45-65(variable on base stat), slightly decrease velocity of shell, no modifications in alpha

-> Premium rounds for medium tanks should increase penetration by 30-50, slightly increase velocity of shell, no modifications in alpha

-> Premium rounds for tank destroyers: increase penetration by 50-70, no modifications in velocity, 15% decrease in alpha damage

->Premium rounds for light tanks: increase penetration by 15-30, big velocity increase(this should be the only railguns), 10% more alpha

 

This are of course, just some not really much thought examples. I think this would be interesting gameplay wise and simple to implement and would probably satisfy anyone. Anyway, i am curious what u think about my potato ideas that i writte at late hours before an important exam



Balc0ra #2 Posted 30 May 2018 - 10:11 PM

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1: So leaving some classes or premium tanks more pay to win then others if they use gold ammo when fighting over range etc. And buff alpha? Depends. As no one complains about the SU-100Y's gold ammo with more damage. As he gets way less pen with it. And you actually have to aim. On the Type 5 it's the other way around. 

 

2: Late game if the enemy had a 3 man Type 5 platoon and you have to carry. That will screw you over more then help. As it works both ways. Then you will be screaming for an armor nerf on everything instead. And 20% on most tanks, is not even enough to get one super heavy down to 50%. As not all guns have 750 alpha. Even if they have 50 rounds. E25 to name one vs say the SU-152. As there 20% is not much for one, and more then enough for a few kills. Not even a +1 super heavy kill for the other. Then you have other taks like the Matilda IV or even the M4 Improved... 20% with superb pay 2 win 102mm gold pen might make it more useless then good. 

 

So instead of limited in the gold ammo. They should send some buffs around so most don't need it. As not everyone did follow with the super heavy meta. Even on HT's. T32 vs Defender to name one. That and... in most cases when I get hit by gold ammo, they would auto pen with normal ammo anyway. Like the E100's HEAT vs my Borsig. 

 


Edited by Balc0ra, 30 May 2018 - 10:14 PM.


Gringo97 #3 Posted 30 May 2018 - 10:21 PM

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Thanks for the feedback! 20% is just a number that can be changed, and they can also tweak a bit the ammo capacity to be enough. It would be interesting to decide if you want to face that superheavy or to keep it for later. Also, the standard pen shells should be sufficient in a lot of the situations(and they have buffed it for a few tanks in this way-to the point a 226 pen on a tier 8 medium tank doesn‘t feel like such a novelty)

 

i think the answer for the first point would probably be to adjust the available premium shells based on the gun and not on the tank type, but that would be a bit harder to do. 



LittleLara #4 Posted 31 May 2018 - 07:41 AM

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All suggestions you just made have already been made several times. The shells need one advantage and one disadvantage over normal rounds, that's it.

RamRaid90 #5 Posted 31 May 2018 - 08:14 AM

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View PostGringo97, on 30 May 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

 

This are of course, just some not really much thought examples. I think this would be interesting gameplay wise and simple to implement and would probably satisfy anyone. Anyway, i am curious what u think about my potato ideas that i writte at late hours before an important exam

 

Waste of a thread.

 

All ideas already suggested hundreds of times, and Wargaming have already announced the rebalancing of premium ammunition.



Boogeyman44 #6 Posted 31 May 2018 - 08:45 AM

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Limiting ammo capacity has never been a good idea imo. It would mean indirect buffs to retardedly super armored tanks.

Plus, you have to account for the high Rng in this game. If my last 2 heat shells out of 4max decide to hit spaced armor or dirt, all my chances of winning a close game against superheavy are done.

 

Lowering alfa of prem rounds has been sugested many times, but I think it is the same problem. Indirect buffs to super heavys and armored tds. If you have a paper med and your prem shells do like 250 damage against a type/maus you need to hit him over and over while remaining exposed to his fire. Meanwhile, a tank with huge Hp pool would not be discouraged to take a few low alpha hits and push critical spots on the map. 

 

Consider alfa is one of the main deterents in this game. Nobody wants to be hit by a jpz, but as long as you can make a risky play and only lose 200-300 hp, people will not hesitate.

 

Think of how reusable consumables indirectly made non turreted vehicles easier to play.

 

Just think of how 2 lights would have to kill a superheavy. It would take them too long because of low alfa, pen, accuracy..



spamhamstar #7 Posted 31 May 2018 - 08:53 AM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 31 May 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

 

Waste of a thread.

 

All ideas already suggested hundreds of times, and Wargaming have already announced the rebalancing of premium ammunition.

 

This, I believe they were waiting until all prem ammo that could have been purchased for gold (people really did this?) had been used before they rebalanced anything to avoid any compensation issues. 

AliceUnchained #8 Posted 31 May 2018 - 10:12 PM

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Same suggestions have been shared a hundred times before, and yours just add arbitrarily decided differences between classes 'because reasons'. None of it is actually supported by any proper argument, which is more or less the issue with any and all 'suggestions', 'fixes', and 'improvements' when it comes to premium ammo. Why is a 20% limit in any way an 'interesting idea'? What's so interesting about setting some arbitrary limit, and how can it be considered a balancing factor?  

 

As always, those creating these threads make the single huge mistake treating premium ammo as a cause, not an effect. A root cause, rather than a symptom. It just shows you lack basic understanding of the game, and its 'balance' (or lack thereof). 

 

 



Murro_the_One #9 Posted 31 May 2018 - 10:53 PM

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its useless to bring any form of pay2win into discussion to this forum, in a while you will have whole swarm of people like the previous individual trying to tell you it is all ok and all proposals are wrong, and all the crap that it wont make bad players better and so on and so on

AliceUnchained #10 Posted 31 May 2018 - 11:05 PM

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View PostMurro_the_One, on 31 May 2018 - 10:53 PM, said:

its useless to bring any form of pay2win into discussion to this forum, in a while you will have whole swarm of people like the previous individual trying to tell you it is all ok and all proposals are wrong, and all the crap that it wont make bad players better and so on and so on

 

It's basically useless to have any discussion because this forum is filled with special cases like you who failed to develop basic reading comprehension at an early age and never recovered from that. The 'trying to tell you it's all ok...' comment is a clear example, as it's not expressed either explicitly or implicitly by me and yet for whatever reason you come up with that nonsense as if somehow that is what I actually meant, or stated. As such, I have only one suggestion: Don't quote me, and don't respond to me. I'd also suggest not posting at all, but I will settle for ignoring me, as it will save me from having to read this nonsense in relation to my post(s) as if somehow it's actually connected at all.

Simeon85 #11 Posted 01 June 2018 - 11:13 AM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 31 May 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

 

As always, those creating these threads make the single huge mistake treating premium ammo as a cause, not an effect. A root cause, rather than a symptom. It just shows you lack basic understanding of the game, and its 'balance' (or lack thereof). 

 

This is a massively key point that most people in the typical premium ammo threads forget.

 

You can't just balance premium ammo without taking into the other factors that cause it's use/volume/need etc.

 

These would be factors like -

 

  • OP armour designs with no weakspots (e.g.Type 5) or weakspots that need premium ammo to reliably pen (e.g. old E5 cupola, current bobject cupola) 
  • Corridor map design that forces close range frontal engagements and gives players limited options.
  • -1 and -2 MM that forces lower tier tanks to take on tanks much better than them and armoured more than their standard pen can handle even in weakspots or some cases sides. (e.g something like a Comet needs premium ammo to reliably pen many tier 9 heavies in the side) 
  • RNG, which gives us such a wide range of penetration values, meaning a 200 pen gun is able to roll as low as 150mm of pen and as high as 250mm of pen.

 

You can;t just change premium ammo with looking at and changing those other factors and the potential impact of those changes.

 

Especially in a current meta, especially at higher tiers where armour is so dominant, tanks like the Maus, Type 5, Bobject, t95, Defender, VK 1001 P etc. these tanks are dominating the game, are OP and they are doing this largely because of their armour (couple with other good stats), any change to premium ammo to nerf its effectiveness, limit its use, damage potential etc. is just a flat out buff to tanks like these.

 

If for example you make all premium rounds do 25% less damage (a common premium ammo suggestion) then you are effectively giving a Type 5 a 25% hit points buff, to a tank that is already too strong. 

 



Hedgehog1963 #12 Posted 01 June 2018 - 11:26 AM

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View PostGringo97, on 30 May 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Thanks for the feedback! 20% is just a number that can be changed, and they can also tweak a bit the ammo capacity to be enough. I. 

 

100% is a number that can't be changed.

 

if you don't like premium ammo don't use it.

 



Agera1993 #13 Posted 01 June 2018 - 02:45 PM

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Easy solution: 50% higher pen, 50% lower damage. Give or take a bit on those values but it'll make a player think twice before thinking "screw this I don't have time to aim for weakspots, here come anti-armor rounds".

Homer_J #14 Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:07 PM

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View PostGringo97, on 30 May 2018 - 09:59 PM, said:

 not really much thought 

...or research.

 

Limiting the number of premium shells won't make them any less whined about, most players don't fire more than two or three times in a battle anyway.  It was kind of tried in Historical battles and it was somewhat lacking in the fun department.

 

I don't think your average player even considers shell velocity unless Jinglebaby tells them to.

 

More damage?  There's a couple of examples of that already, it's not something we want to encourage WG to do.

 

And what else?  Oh yes, premium ammo is fine, leave it alone.



_Yippe_ #15 Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:59 PM

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The Alpha damage must be nerfed in every tank...

There isnt any other option possible...

 

The Game needs to be fun and balanced.
 

 

View PostSimeon85, on 01 June 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

 

This is a massively key point that most people in the typical premium ammo threads forget.

 

You can't just balance premium ammo without taking into the other factors that cause it's use/volume/need etc.

 

These would be factors like -

 

  • OP armour designs with no weakspots (e.g.Type 5) or weakspots that need premium ammo to reliably pen (e.g. old E5 cupola, current bobject cupola) 
  • Corridor map design that forces close range frontal engagements and gives players limited options.
  • -1 and -2 MM that forces lower tier tanks to take on tanks much better than them and armoured more than their standard pen can handle even in weakspots or some cases sides. (e.g something like a Comet needs premium ammo to reliably pen many tier 9 heavies in the side) 
  • RNG, which gives us such a wide range of penetration values, meaning a 200 pen gun is able to roll as low as 150mm of pen and as high as 250mm of pen.

 

You can;t just change premium ammo with looking at and changing those other factors and the potential impact of those changes.

 

Especially in a current meta, especially at higher tiers where armour is so dominant, tanks like the Maus, Type 5, Bobject, t95, Defender, VK 1001 P etc. these tanks are dominating the game, are OP and they are doing this largely because of their armour (couple with other good stats), any change to premium ammo to nerf its effectiveness, limit its use, damage potential etc. is just a flat out buff to tanks like these.

 

If for example you make all premium rounds do 25% less damage (a common premium ammo suggestion) then you are effectively giving a Type 5 a 25% hit points buff, to a tank that is already too strong. 

 

 Armor is useless right now with gold ammo .. 

 

That strong tanks have others downsides... for example one: low speed, low rof, low traverse.. Then cuZ that they need a new premium item to boost the speed, rof etc like a medium or light? Big NO

 

The Game needs be balanced and fun...

Same damage with premium ammo isnt fun or balanced.

 

Every no heavy tank outhere have a huge advantage versus any heavy or armor tank...while the heavy tanks dont have any P2W help ...

 


 

Edited by xxTANK_Uxx, 02 June 2018 - 01:06 PM.


Homer_J #16 Posted 01 June 2018 - 04:34 PM

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View Post_Yippe_, on 01 June 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

The Alpha damage must be nerfed in every tank...
 

Did you even think before you wrote that?



AliceUnchained #17 Posted 01 June 2018 - 06:09 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 01 June 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

 

This is a massively key point that most people in the typical premium ammo threads forget.

 

You can't just balance premium ammo without taking into the other factors that cause it's use/volume/need etc.

 

These would be factors like -

 

  • OP armour designs with no weakspots (e.g.Type 5) or weakspots that need premium ammo to reliably pen (e.g. old E5 cupola, current bobject cupola) 
  • Corridor map design that forces close range frontal engagements and gives players limited options.
  • -1 and -2 MM that forces lower tier tanks to take on tanks much better than them and armoured more than their standard pen can handle even in weakspots or some cases sides. (e.g something like a Comet needs premium ammo to reliably pen many tier 9 heavies in the side) 
  • RNG, which gives us such a wide range of penetration values, meaning a 200 pen gun is able to roll as low as 150mm of pen and as high as 250mm of pen.

 

You can;t just change premium ammo with looking at and changing those other factors and the potential impact of those changes.

 

Especially in a current meta, especially at higher tiers where armour is so dominant, tanks like the Maus, Type 5, Bobject, t95, Defender, VK 1001 P etc. these tanks are dominating the game, are OP and they are doing this largely because of their armour (couple with other good stats), any change to premium ammo to nerf its effectiveness, limit its use, damage potential etc. is just a flat out buff to tanks like these.

 

If for example you make all premium rounds do 25% less damage (a common premium ammo suggestion) then you are effectively giving a Type 5 a 25% hit points buff, to a tank that is already too strong. 

 

Exactly. I've never stated anywhere that I consider premium just fine, but looking at it in isolation, and more so as if it's a the problem rather than the symptom, is a huge mistake and betrays a distinct lack of understanding some very basic concepts in WoT. As pointed out by others before, the main reason so many players cry and moan about premium ammo and want it 'fixed' is because that's what they see on their HUD and that's what they can 'feel' when they get hit. It requires very little thought, and very little understanding, and thus is constantly brought up, over and over again. It also allows players to overlook their own mistakes, and serves as the perfect excuse for poor performance (be that a single game, or over the course of hundres).

 

View Post_Yippe_, on 01 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

 Armor is useless right now with gold ammo .. 

 

It really isn't. It's only useless in the hands of poor players who expect to auto-bounce everything sitting still at a corner just because they picked a superheavy tank. One doesn't need to grab a crystal ball to figure in which category you belong...

 

View Post_Yippe_, on 01 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

 That strong tanks have others downsides... for example one: low speed, low rof, low traverse.. Then cuZ that they need a new premium item to boost the speed, rof etc like a medium or light? Big NO

 

All of which is easily negated by the current corridor brawl map design meta. If you know how to position and angle your tank that is.

 


Edited by AliceUnchained, 01 June 2018 - 06:15 PM.


Bobik72 #18 Posted 01 June 2018 - 10:18 PM

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*edited*

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to the violation of rule 4


Edited by zebra4lol, 02 June 2018 - 09:23 AM.


_Yippe_ #19 Posted 02 June 2018 - 04:26 AM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 01 June 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

 

Exactly. I've never stated anywhere that I consider premium just fine, but looking at it in isolation, and more so as if it's a the problem rather than the symptom, is a huge mistake and betrays a distinct lack of understanding some very basic concepts in WoT. As pointed out by others before, the main reason so many players cry and moan about premium ammo and want it 'fixed' is because that's what they see on their HUD and that's what they can 'feel' when they get hit. It requires very little thought, and very little understanding, and thus is constantly brought up, over and over again. It also allows players to overlook their own mistakes, and serves as the perfect excuse for poor performance (be that a single game, or over the course of hundres).

 

 Armor is useless right now with gold ammo .. 

 

It really isn't. It's only useless in the hands of poor players who expect to auto-bounce everything sitting still at a corner just because they picked a superheavy tank. One doesn't need to grab a crystal ball to figure in which category you belong...

 I can Pen 99% every tank with gold without caring if he is pro or poor  or heavy or etc and mostly any kind of aim is required... Other problem is that i dont want to buy gold but lots of people use It. So the fact is total unbalanced  and unfair game without  gold ammo .

 

i dont want to autobounce all haha but the normal of a heavy tank and you can notice so easy when someone use gold and It at least need less damage or add new items for the heavies.

 

All of which is easily negated by the current corridor brawl map design meta. If you know how to position and angle your tank that is.

 

That isnt real 100% maybe at the beggining and in some Maps but after a minutes the speed is all.

 

 The speed, etc today is much more important and meta than armor..all people says It(not only me) then as i said every tank not focused in armor have huge advantage buying a premium ítem while the heavy cant buy anything premium  to fight much better the others. 

 

 

 

 

 

The  fun fact about the premium ammo debate is that the big defenders of this easy mode are the supposed pros Who knows perfectly the weak spots, how to circle of death, when attack or when not, etc, etc, totally ironic xD and i dont say It to you but i saw It a lot of times...

 

 

View PostHomer_J, on 01 June 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

Did you even think before you wrote that?

You need yo read the topic..

We are talking about premium ammo and the OP was saying to nerf TD Alpha damage and i said every tank... Its so easy ....


 

Edited by xxTANK_Uxx, 02 June 2018 - 01:07 PM.


Homer_J #20 Posted 02 June 2018 - 07:26 AM

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View Post_Yippe_, on 02 June 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:

You need yo read the topic..

We are talking about premium ammo and the OP was saying to nerf TD Alpha damage and i said every tank... Its so easy ....

 

That's a no then.




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