76 replies to this topic

[jabster]

Nethraniel, on 05 June 2018 - 06:35 AM, said:

 

Yes, that is pretty much it. If you sink money in an online game, do it for having fun, because it isn't more than a luxury item for personal entertainment.

 

Unfortunately it’s going to take a bit of time for governments to catch up with the whole new world of digital goods/services and some of the questions it raises. One of the ones I hadn’t even thought about until recently is if I ‘buy’  a film from the Sky Store what happens if I decide to no longer subscribe to Sky. I think the answer is going to be I lose access to the film.

[Nethraniel]

jabster, on 05 June 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

 

Unfortunately it’s going to take a bit of time for governments to catch up with the whole new world of digital goods/services and some of the questions it raises. One of the ones I hadn’t even thought about until recently is if I ‘buy’  a film from the Sky Store what happens if I decide to no longer subscribe to Sky. I think the answer is going to be I lose access to the film.

 

Or, if Valve decides to shut down Steam...

[Homer_J]

DracheimFlug, on 05 June 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

 

There is no shortage or precedents of other MMO's shutting down, or online facebook games.

 

That reminds me, I haven't tended to my farm for a few years, or my city, or mafia gang....  And yes I "invested" in some of those.

[DracheimFlug]

Nethraniel, on 05 June 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

 

Or, if Valve decides to shut down Steam...

 

That is not quite the same thing, since Steam games can be played offline. 

[Nethraniel]

DracheimFlug, on 05 June 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

 

That is not quite the same thing, since Steam games can be played offline. 

 

Well, I cannot resinstall them without the Steam service... so I "own" the games only as long as my system survives.

In some cases just copying the game files to another HDD is not enough, to keep the game working.

Edited by Nethraniel, 05 June 2018 - 08:20 AM.

[jabster]

Nethraniel, on 05 June 2018 - 07:11 AM, said:

 

Or, if Valve decides to shut down Steam...

 

Steam is a bit of a weird one as it does have an offline mode but you occasionally see posts suggesting that it just doesn’t work properly. Valve also said in the early days that if they were going to shut the servers down then they’d release a patch that completly removed the online requirement. I always took that with a pinch of salt.

[DracheimFlug]

Nethraniel, on 05 June 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 

Well, I cannot resinstall them without the Steam service... so I "own" the games only as long as my system survives.

In some cases just copying the game files to another HDD is not enough, to keep the game working.

 

This is true, however there would likely be a warning period. Also the licenses are with the original IP holders, not with Steam, so the bigger ones would likely just set up their own distribution systems again. 

 

[_Sensation_]

Old news, we know WG, they've been like this forever. *edited*

Edited by NickMustaine, 06 June 2018 - 01:24 PM.
Provocations

[Solstad1069]

If i go to a concert/theater/movie i wont get my money back if im not happy with what i saw.

[DracheimFlug]

There is also likely precedent with more tangible goods. Lifetime serve contracts and the like are not interpreted as having a requirement that the company stay existent indefinitely. Also, if you buy something that needs periodic supply and the product is discontinued, there seems no legal obligation on the part of the company to keep producing the needed supplies. Printers are an obvious example of such a situation. Sure the printer is yours, but if they stop producing toner for it, and no third party finds it profitable enough to do so, good luck printing anything with it.

[jabster]

Solstad1069, on 05 June 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

If i go to a concert/theater/movie i wont get my money back if im not happy with what i saw.

 

You would if they showed a different film.

[DracheimFlug]

jabster, on 05 June 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

 

You would if they showed a different film.

 

This. Or if the film cuts out before the end. Or doesn't show at all. 

[Lomion_EU]

Darksteel_Plate, on 04 June 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

 

and were can i see if this is wrong? also, WG NA is owned by the same company that owns WG EU. so they will change it up anyways later.

 

Yes they can, but consumer law in the EU is very different to consumer law in the US (particularly)  it's much easier to change T&C's there than it is in the EU where we have much more consumer protection.

[jabster]

DracheimFlug, on 05 June 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

There is also likely precedent with more tangible goods. Lifetime serve contracts and the like are not interpreted as having a requirement that the company stay existent indefinitely. Also, if you buy something that needs periodic supply and the product is discontinued, there seems no legal obligation on the part of the company to keep producing the needed supplies. Printers are an obvious example of such a situation. Sure the printer is yours, but if they stop producing toner for it, and no third party finds it profitable enough to do so, good luck printing anything with it.

 

I don’t think the printer comparison is quite right but it does work on the level of the servers shutting down. There’s a reasonable expectation it will happen sometime whereas it would be unreasonable, not to mention impractical, to ‘force’ companies to keep servers running,

 

I should add that I think the real problem is that currently the balance between a company and a customer is completely balanced towards the company. Label something ‘digital goods’ and you’ve basically chucked consumer rights out the window. To me that’s not a reasonable situation.

 

 

DracheimFlug, on 05 June 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

 

This. Or if the film cuts out before the end. Or doesn't show at all. 

 

I believe in the UK most of the big chains have a policy of if you walk out after the first 15mins then they will give you your money back.
 

Edited by NickMustaine, 06 June 2018 - 01:25 PM.

[DracheimFlug]

jabster, on 05 June 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

 

I don’t think the printer comparison is quite right but it does work on the level of the servers shutting down. There’s a reasonable expectation it will happen sometime whereas it would be unreasonable, not to mention impractical, to ‘force’ companies to keep servers running,

 

I should add that I think the real problem is that currently the balance between a company and a customer is completely balanced towards the company. Label something ‘digital goods’ and you’ve basically chucked consumer rights out the window. To me that’s not a reasonable situation.

 

 

It is the nature of the product though. For it to be available to play online, there has to be someone running and maintaining servers. Even for it to be available for download there has to be someone maintaining that. 

 

For anything that can be played offline, though, there should be an option to download an 'installation copy.' The problem there, though is then you are back to problems with piracy.... which is the reason things like Steam exist in the first place. Digital goods are a tricky product to regulate.

[jabster]

DracheimFlug, on 05 June 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

 

It is the nature of the product though. For it to be available to play online, there has to be someone running and maintaining servers. Even for it to be available for download there has to be someone maintaining that. 

 

For anything that can be played offline, though, there should be an option to download an 'installation copy.' The problem there, though is then you are back to problems with piracy.... which is the reason things like Steam exist in the first place. Digital goods are a tricky product to regulate.

 

For the first part, yes I agree (as I’ve said before) but currently everything favours a company. Is it reasonable that some changes can be made to digital content, I believe so yes. What I don’t think is reasonable is the current situation where WG can just delete a ‘tank’ bought with real money and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Edited by jabster, 05 June 2018 - 09:37 AM.

[Teluminos]

Cobra6, on 04 June 2018 - 04:14 PM, said:

 

Nothing stopping you from running your games though, it is still available to you and there is no game publisher taking your game away.

 

Cobra 6

 

Well yes and no.

Depends on the game, some require more internet connection then others.

Then take into account the support for your product has stopped, the servers are offline.

Older games just had more to do offline then nowadays that still doesn't make them technically yours.

It always been a bit edgy, even with retail versions.

Everything you bought like that you could ever return on the stores terms not like a dishwasher where you had a proper warranty.

If your game broke after a year no store would help you much with that.

If the same happend to your pc your monitor and such they had too.

With any game I remember calling the companies directly and most were willing to help, but it wasn't exactly like they were forced to.

DRM is just the logical conclusion to it that we never owned anything.

[unhappy_bunny]

_Sensation_, on 05 June 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

Old news, we know WG, they've been like this forever. Stupid russians

 

 

Yes they have. But then soare most, if not all, game makers. Check the EULA for Minecraft or Fortnite for instance. You pay for ingame stuff and guess what? You have a license to use it, you dont own it. It can be removed, withdrawn or changed without your consent. 

But, hey! Why should we worry about those games. We are here to bash WG not compare their EULA with others. 

[DracheimFlug]

jabster, on 05 June 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

 

For the first part, yes I agree (as I’ve said before) but currently everything favours a company. Is it reasonable that some changes can be made to digital content, I believe so yes. What I don’t think is reasonable is the current situation where WG can just delete a ‘tank’ bought with real money and there’s nothing you can do about it.

 

In the EU I doubt the EULA would hold for that, and frankly, not sure that it would even in the US. I think even more controversial in the US is the suggestion that they could delete your entire account essentially arbitrarily just over something you said on a third party site. The US often takes free speech to arguably absurd lengths.

[malachi6]

As far as I am aware I have never owned any virtual goods.  It has always been a licence to use said goods.  Regard it more as an extended rental and you may better grasp the idea..