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Is there a metric which noobs would not twist and screw the gameplay?


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zero_fox_given #1 Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:17 PM

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I have been using WN8 as some kind of metric to estimate the capability of the player for long time.

i stoped looking at it because some people are so obsessed with it that they spam gold all day long and camp like crazy so they lose more games with this gamestyle than they would if they played normally

Once i have noticed player with ~1600 wn8 and below 48% winrate...tell me, whats the point.

 

then we have Marks of Excellence. main ambassador, skill4ltu. have been watching him for a while but it got boring. it is much better metric than wn8 but the selfish gameplay it promotes is just disgusting.

Skill might be pro player and you wont notice that selfishness in his gameplay because he carries the games but for average bob who plays for MoE, its often very selfish. sacrificing teammates just to run away to get some spots or damage, completely leaving position because it looks dangerous and he could drop MoE... screw it.

I must say here, MoE might be some kind of substitusion for endgame, when someone wants to perfect his gameplay but like i said, it selfish.

 

before i jump to conclusion, let me say that its sad that wargaming does not promote solo winrate as the metric which would clearly demonstrate skill of individual in most natural way - to win a game, fact that it also counts platoons makes it very flawed.

 

so conclusion:

I dont know when this happened, i dont remember it in the early days when i played like a noob on my first account but it was fun, i didnt know about stats, just wr and i played for fun (55% so no bobing)

everything these days is obsessed with statistics and performance. get as much damage as possible, as much kills as possible, very little gameplay where you see people helping each other and similar.

 

I dont have problem to get in the way when i see autoloader would kill my teammate with last shot in his drum and save him, to wait a minute in a arty to get perfect stun of 4-5 tanks who try to plan rushing my team, or just sit in the bush in my scout and not care about last couple of enemies to farm damage, just let my team do it.

people just dont this stuff anymore and maybe WG should do something with either baning mods like XVM or promoting metrics which help the teamplay, not just selfish statpading



UrQuan #2 Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:30 PM

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There exists no single metric that can gauge a player skill well.

 

The best that exists is using a combination of ratings & know their faults (WN8 doesn't track spotting by example) and work with that. A high WN8 player but low WR? He likely camps. Low WN8 but high WR? This player knows what he's doing, but he doesn't win by way of damage. High WR & high WN8? this guy knows what's up & wins by doing damage.

But even that is flawed due to low tier statpadding, so a better mix would be including most played tier.

A player getting high WR & high WN8 at T4 is very likely a statpadder & will be far less impressive at T8.

While that guy with decent WN8 & WR at TX for most played will likely be a much mroe reliable companion in your match (or more dangerous opponent)

 

So in short, the more ratings you include to check, the better you can estimate someone's skill. Collecting it in a single rating is simply impossible due to the large variety of skill needed  to play. Some rock with autoloaders, others with scouts & even others rock their zippy meds.

 

But most basic viewing for low amount of error would be a system that shows you WR & tiers played along with a decent rating system. That should get you close to what you want, as long as you know the handicaps of said rating system & pay attention to the combo of WR, tiers & rating.

But even then it won't be good enough.

By example, if you put me in  light or med & I'm afraid I'm only going to let you down in a match if you go off on my rating, WR & tier played. because I am simply bad in those type of tanks.

 

Also, don't count too hard on teammates; once you achieve enough understanding of WoT to win roughly 55%+ of your games, you land in an area where your knowledge of Wot far exceeds theirs & what you see as dumb play might be teamplay to them & what you see as good play could be likely viewed as cowardly or stupid play by them, simply because your understanding & their understanding of the game doesn't match up at all.


Edited by UrQuan, 14 June 2018 - 07:33 PM.


fwhaatpiraat #3 Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:41 PM

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Rush Rating, only metric that shows true skills and can't be padded.

PowJay #4 Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:51 PM

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Win rate is probably the best indicator of whether the player does the right thing most of the time, or not. Of course, it can be skewed by excessive platooning with much better players, so it isn't the be all and end all, I suppose.

Jigabachi #5 Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:58 PM

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Why fixating on only one stat? The player profile has many stats which, properly interpreted, give you a rough but still good enough evaluation of a player's performance.

lgfrbcsgo #6 Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:06 PM

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View PostJigabachi, on 14 June 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

Why fixating on only one stat? The player profile has many stats which, properly interpreted, give you a rough but still good enough evaluation of a player's performance.

 

Looking at a single stat is much faster than having to look at three or more. I am assuming we're talking about in battle stats?

My XVM shows me xTE (per vehicle damage and kills) and only the colors, no numbers.  

I find that per vehicle statistics are overall much more accurate. Sure, you might pad the stat on a few vehicles, but on most vehicles it is pretty accurate.



Enforcer1975 #7 Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:07 PM

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As UrQuan already mentioned....the combination of WN8 and WR usually is a good indicator of how good or bad a player is. If you want to dicg deeper you need to take a closer look at the stats of indivisual tanks, mainly those that aren't broken / the usual padder tanks. 

Pansenmann #8 Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:50 PM

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to me, personally,

what is interesting is the kill/death ratio and winrate.

per tank.

 

*edit:

yes, you can do "skill matchmaking" like in quake live for example,

but there everyone is playing the same tank!


Edited by Pansenmann, 14 June 2018 - 09:52 PM.


HugSeal #9 Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:00 PM

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View Postzero_fox_given, on 14 June 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

I have been using WN8 as some kind of metric to estimate the capability of the player for long time.

i stoped looking at it because some people are so obsessed with it that they spam gold all day long and camp like crazy so they lose more games with this gamestyle than they would if they played normally

Once i have noticed player with ~1600 wn8 and below 48% winrate...tell me, whats the point.

 

then we have Marks of Excellence. main ambassador, skill4ltu. have been watching him for a while but it got boring. it is much better metric than wn8 but the selfish gameplay it promotes is just disgusting.

Skill might be pro player and you wont notice that selfishness in his gameplay because he carries the games but for average bob who plays for MoE, its often very selfish. sacrificing teammates just to run away to get some spots or damage, completely leaving position because it looks dangerous and he could drop MoE... screw it.

I must say here, MoE might be some kind of substitusion for endgame, when someone wants to perfect his gameplay but like i said, it selfish.

 

before i jump to conclusion, let me say that its sad that wargaming does not promote solo winrate as the metric which would clearly demonstrate skill of individual in most natural way - to win a game, fact that it also counts platoons makes it very flawed.

 

so conclusion:

I dont know when this happened, i dont remember it in the early days when i played like a noob on my first account but it was fun, i didnt know about stats, just wr and i played for fun (55% so no bobing)

everything these days is obsessed with statistics and performance. get as much damage as possible, as much kills as possible, very little gameplay where you see people helping each other and similar.

 

I dont have problem to get in the way when i see autoloader would kill my teammate with last shot in his drum and save him, to wait a minute in a arty to get perfect stun of 4-5 tanks who try to plan rushing my team, or just sit in the bush in my scout and not care about last couple of enemies to farm damage, just let my team do it.

people just dont this stuff anymore and maybe WG should do something with either baning mods like XVM or promoting metrics which help the teamplay, not just selfish statpading

 

So, you make an entire thread to talk about different ways to measure stats and th epros and cons of them while at the same time whining about some percieved stat obsession?

 

How about you either look in a mirror or you simply stop looking at the stats. 



steview162 #10 Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:01 PM

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I don't get why you want some perfect metric. It won't account for bad days, good days, drunk days yadda yadda. They're only ever a guide.

zero_fox_given #11 Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:44 AM

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View PostHugSeal, on 14 June 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

 

So, you make an entire thread to talk about different ways to measure stats and th epros and cons of them while at the same time whining about some percieved stat obsession?

 

How about you either look in a mirror or you simply stop looking at the stats. 

View Poststeview162, on 14 June 2018 - 10:01 PM, said:

I don't get why you want some perfect metric. It won't account for bad days, good days, drunk days yadda yadda. They're only ever a guide.

folks, the message is, that there are some metrics in game but the way how they are designed they promote selfish gameplay.

the metrics are not important to me, i just mentioned them when i tried to look at the game trough the optics of the metric but i dont anymore.

 

i strongly believe that banning XVM with its WN8 would make game better place. too many insecure kids look at the stats as primary objective in game instead of having fun...

that however wg wont do because there is lot of people who think they belong to some kind of elite club if their score is high enough and they would lose the only motivation to remain in game...

 

 

 



HundeWurst #12 Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:49 AM

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Dont care for wn8. For a time (like 3 years back) it was the best metric available and much better than what was there before.

Over time people realized how to manipulate that rating and abuse its quit major flaws.

 

WN8 has little meaning these days. Any good clan wont be looking for that any more but for the actual tank statistics, aka DPG spots kills assist and such on tier 10 vehicles. Anyone can play on superunicum level in a T67 with a good crew and average understanding of the game.

 

WN( is simply to flawed and not a meaningfull statistic any more. Without wanting to insult the biggest WoT streamer I would like to compare my WN8 score to his. I guess I have like 200 more wn8 than him, yet I score on a lot of tier 10 tanks 1000 more average damage per game. (Note: WN8 is not a linear stat). And that is a HUGE difference.

 


Edited by HundeWurst, 15 June 2018 - 07:50 AM.


OreH75 #13 Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:52 AM

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View Postzero_fox_given, on 15 June 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

folks, the message is, that there are some metrics in game but the way how they are designed they promote selfish gameplay.

the metrics are not important to me, i just mentioned them when i tried to look at the game trough the optics of the metric but i dont anymore.

 

There is no metric in the game? I only see tank names during the battles and player names on the result screen. 

I know there are some metrics available outside the game but I can't be arsed to look them up for games that last <5 minutes. 



Jigabachi #14 Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:54 AM

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View Postlgfrbcsgo, on 14 June 2018 - 08:06 PM, said:

Looking at a single stat is much faster than having to look at three or more. I am assuming we're talking about in battle stats?

Single stats or ratings are entirely pointless. You can roughly differentiate between good or bad players, but that's it.

And ingame stats should get banned anyway.



Kozzy #15 Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:13 AM

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View PostHugSeal, on 14 June 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

 

So, you make an entire thread to talk about different ways to measure stats and th epros and cons of them while at the same time whining about some percieved stat obsession?

 

How about you either look in a mirror or you simply stop looking at the stats. 

 

This^^

 

So many people say "OMG, I wish people would stop caring about stats" and then saying "which stats are best to measure a player's ability".  The funny thing is, it's the ones who whine most about stats that appear to use tools like XVM the most!



Flavortown #16 Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:20 AM

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wn8 is really only good for spotting "unicum" masterblasters who spew shite into the chat about the team or player(s)

You dont need anything to spot the idiots out of both teams if you got some common sense and when you expect the match to be 1vs15 you only really get disappointed when your own team starts to be more of a problem than the other side.

 

Aaand like the magic wiener said above, most just look at stats for certain tanks if they want to evaluate someone



NoobySkooby #17 Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:34 AM

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View PostHugSeal, on 14 June 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

 

So, you make an entire thread to talk about different ways to measure stats and th epros and cons of them while at the same time whining about some percieved stat obsession?

 

How about you either look in a mirror or you simply stop looking at the stats. 

 

True, concentrate on the goddamned battle not players stats.

superfly2000 #18 Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:49 AM

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Its kind of funny. Had I posted similar negative comments about WN8 a couple of years ago I'd be flamed alive. Thankfully it seems that many players (and forumites) have evolved.

Hedgehog1963 #19 Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:55 AM

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View PostHundeWurst, on 15 June 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Dont care for wn8. For a time (like 3 years back) it was the best metric available and much better than what was there before.

Over time people realized how to manipulate that rating and abuse its quit major flaws.

 

WN8 has little meaning these days. Any good clan wont be looking for that any more but for the actual tank statistics, aka DPG spots kills assist and such on tier 10 vehicles. Anyone can play on superunicum level in a T67 with a good crew and average understanding of the game.

 

WN( is simply to flawed and not a meaningfull statistic any more. Without wanting to insult the biggest WoT streamer I would like to compare my WN8 score to his. I guess I have like 200 more wn8 than him, yet I score on a lot of tier 10 tanks 1000 more average damage per game. (Note: WN8 is not a linear stat). And that is a HUGE difference.

 

 

Yeah but the other big difference is people like QB.

Cobra6 #20 Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:55 AM

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Average Winrating because it tells you how often they win the battles they play which is the whole point of the game.

 

Good wn8 can be a benefit but is not correlated to winning matches.

To win a match you don't need to do a *LOT* of damage, you just need to do the *CORRECT* damage, that is to say take out the most dangerous enemy tanks, the tanks which pose the biggest threat.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 15 June 2018 - 08:56 AM.





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