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Are Personal Reserves Detrimental to Gameplay?


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Poll: Are Personal Reserves Detrimental to Gameplay? (88 members have cast votes)

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Well?

  1. Yes (25 votes [28.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.41%

  2. No (63 votes [71.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.59%

Would Reserves be More Useful if They Were Per-Game Instead of Timed?

  1. Yes (69 votes [78.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 78.41%

  2. No (19 votes [21.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.59%

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Erwin_Von_Braun #1 Posted 17 June 2018 - 11:40 AM

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So, this all started yesterday afternoon when I had a conversation with a chap who drowned his (top tier) T-10 at the start of the game - a game which we went on to lose 15-1.

He turned out to be a reasonable gent and explained that, as his playing time is limited, when reserves are activated he has to make the most of them and cannot afford to waste time on a pre-ordained loss - a fair point methinks, a tad selfish but then randoms are an inherently selfish game mode.


 

This morning I fire up WoT looking forward to a solid days gaming before prem time expires, had a great day yesterday and was hoping for more of the same.

Then I made the mistake of firing up a 300% Crew Reserve + a 200% Free XP Reserve and a 50% Credits Reserve - cue rolfstomp after rolfstomp after rolfstomp.

14 losses and six wins - every one of them a massacre and, to be quite frank I was starting to get a little frustrated & stopped playing.


 

The really bad thing is I found myself starting to think the same as the chap from the day before 'why should I waste my time' when you are 0-5 in less than two minutes you start to wonder...


 

It got me thinking, randoms are a selfish game mode to begin with, there is very little in the way of co-ordinated team-play and it is my thinking that Reserves make it worse.

They add to the already toxic atmosphere created by the likes of XVM et al by putting a clock on your earning potential, so why would you waste precious gaming time on a game that is almost certainly going to be a loss?


 

I don't want this to come across as a rant (although it probably has) & I'm not often in the habit of posting serious threads but I was wondering what the general feelings of the community are?


 


 


 



ogremage #2 Posted 17 June 2018 - 11:51 AM

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He's not a "reasonable gent". He's a selfish noob. Drowning yourself is inexcusable in any situation and should be a bannable offence.

 

However, having per-game reserves would be better indeed. Or at least ones that don't elapse if servers reboot, servers crash or you log off.



Long_Range_Sniper #3 Posted 17 June 2018 - 11:52 AM

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Personal reserves are given away like confetti now by Wargaming, and even if you decide to buy them, one x2 reserve works out at 0.42p for two hours. That's around 24 games at 5 mins per game, or 2p per game.

 

If you're committing suicide to max out that 2p per game investment (or maybe up to 6p for more reserves) then I guess you probably use both sides of toilet paper just to get value for money.

 

If you play to win each game with or without reserves then you max out your learning, which increases your skill, which increases your wins, which increases your profits with or without reserves.

 

All committing suicide does is reduce your learning, because there are times in all games to fight against the odds, and when you can do that you turn more losses into wins which increases your earnings all the time.


Edited by Long_Range_Sniper, 17 June 2018 - 12:07 PM.


Dorander #4 Posted 17 June 2018 - 11:55 AM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

 a pre-ordained loss 

 

There's no such thing. If anything can be stated about the outcome in this scenario it is that being a tank down, especially a top tier tank down and especially a good tank like the T-10, is that it will increase the chances of losing. If that player had played well he could've carried the game.

 

On the reserves themselves, I think a per-game-played reserve like the rent camo would be a better method, but the way Wargaming tosses free reserves at the playerbase I'm also not convinced it's in any way a big deal. When you start thinking "Why would I waste my time?", that's when you should simply take a break from WoT.



Homer_J #5 Posted 17 June 2018 - 12:12 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

So, this all started yesterday afternoon when I had a conversation with a chap who drowned his (top tier) T-10 at the start of the game - a game which we went on to lose 15-1.

He turned out to be a reasonable gent and explained that, as his playing time is limited, when reserves are activated he has to make the most of them and cannot afford to waste time on a pre-ordained loss - a fair point methinks, a tad selfish but then randoms are an inherently selfish game mode.

 

 

The guy is an idiot.  A loss with courageous resistance gets as much exp as a win.  Credits are entirely damage based.  Quitting gets you next to nothing and you already wasted probably a minute of those reserves.

If he paid for reserves then he's a bigger idiot.

 

As for the tin foil hat theory, I get good days and bad days regardless of having reserves on or not.


Edited by Homer_J, 17 June 2018 - 12:14 PM.


Aikl #6 Posted 17 June 2018 - 12:13 PM

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Pretty sure they're at least not contributing to good gameplay.

 

For Wargaming it's likely that the pros of keeping you playing/grinding beyond your normal tolerance beats whatever effect it has on gameplay. If it makes gameplay worse, it's a clear sign that the reserves are important to the playerbase - and presumably working as intended.

 

View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 17 June 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

(...)

 

It's likely down to the feeling you'll get from having them active, not really the monetary loss. Besides, for the more intensive (non-premium) grinders they could potentially be so valuable that they'll go crazy over them - personally I think it's pretty crazy to not consider spending money on a game they'll play for perhaps 50-100 hours per month. There are some of those, too.

 

 



Homer_J #7 Posted 17 June 2018 - 12:17 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

 

The really bad thing is I found myself starting to think the same as the chap from the day before 'why should I waste my time' when you are 0-5 in less than two minutes you start to wonder...

 

But which 5 did you lose?  Your average WoT team doesn't have five useful players so dwelling on losing some of the cannon fodder is counter productive.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #8 Posted 17 June 2018 - 12:17 PM

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  • If that T10 got enough reasons to believe that the enemy team is way better than his and a win is very difficult then why waste the battle completely with 0 damage and almost 0 XP??? Why not do the best he can to at least get some damage in this battle? If randoms is a "selfish" mode, isn't it better to get something out of this crappy battle?

 

  • I've had 5 games with 10k raw damage in 45k battles so far, all of them were either in a heavy or a heavy TD, i lost 4 of the 5! I wouldn't know that i am able to do that if i drowned myself or went yolo! Both good and bad experiences are useful and part of one's knowledge of the game.

 

  • Reserves got nothing to do with people's stupidity and lack of will. I've about 1k reserves sitting there doing nothing because if activating reserves is going to affect my game play then i am better off without that nuisance.

Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 17 June 2018 - 05:10 PM.


Balc0ra #9 Posted 17 June 2018 - 12:50 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

So, this all started yesterday afternoon when I had a conversation with a chap who drowned his (top tier) T-10 at the start of the game - a game which we went on to lose 15-1.

He turned out to be a reasonable gent and explained that, as his playing time is limited, when reserves are activated he has to make the most of them and cannot afford to waste time on a pre-ordained loss - a fair point methinks, a tad selfish but then randoms are an inherently selfish game mode.

 

Well if he drowns, he still has to wait for the game to be over. And if he sticks around to talk to his team after he is dead. Well, then he has time. So it's a sad excuse either way. And if someone did it to him, I suspect he would be mad too.

 

I did meet one like that a few days ago. He said more or less the same thing, tho in a more aggressive manner that he doesn't have time for it when I asked why. I did come across the same guy last night. So I thought I would have some fun if he lives long enough. So I played my flank, did what I would do. Then when I linked up with him on the other side. He was in a 1 vs 1. I held my fire, let him get killed and then helped by killing his foe. He started to rage and I replied with "I have all the time in the world". He did remember my nick from a few days before... and simply replied with "touche" 

 

That said... I do get loss streaks when turning on 200% XP etc. But I also have win streaks when doing it. Today I got all my daily grinds done on the first win with reserves on. Yesterday, two of my grinds had to go in the 2nd reserve to get their win. It happens. It's annoying when it happens. But I know I will get the favour returned later. As my Obj 430 II got 3 wins with 200% today. So not complaining. And it was my last 200% for now. 

 

Is it toxic? It a way yes. But I don't see it too often. Well said in chat that it's the reason for it that is, for it to be an issue for me personally. I'm willing to guess XVM causes way more of that then personal reserves do. And if they are pr game, how many should 1 hour be converted to? 4 or 5 seems like a fair number tbh. And I would not mind that it was done that way either. But I suspect some would complain either way even then, or find an excuse for it. 


Edited by Balc0ra, 17 June 2018 - 12:50 PM.


Erwin_Von_Braun #10 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:20 PM

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View Postogremage, on 17 June 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

He's not a "reasonable gent". He's a selfish noob. Drowning yourself is inexcusable in any situation and should be a bannable offence.

 

However, having per-game reserves would be better indeed. Or at least ones that don't elapse if servers reboot, servers crash or you log off.

 

View PostHomer_J, on 17 June 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

 

The guy is an idiot.  A loss with courageous resistance gets as much exp as a win.  Credits are entirely damage based.  Quitting gets you next to nothing and you already wasted probably a minute of those reserves.

If he paid for reserves then he's a bigger idiot.

 

As for the tin foil hat theory, I get good days and bad days regardless of having reserves on or not.

 

When I say 'reasonable' what I mean is that he didn't reply with the usual swearing & screaming  that tends to accompany these situations.

There is no tin foil hat theory here at all - I think we all have to admit that there are games you WILL lose no matter how well you or the rest of the team plays.

Part of it comes from the self-fulfilling prophet that is XVM that some players seem to put so much faith in - I get the feeling that personal reserves exacerbate this.



Erwin_Von_Braun #11 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:23 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 17 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

 

Well if he drowns, he still has to wait for the game to be over. And if he sticks around to talk to his team after he is dead. Well, then he has time. So it's a sad excuse either way. And if someone did it to him, I suspect he would be mad too.

 

I did meet one like that a few days ago. He said more or less the same thing, tho in a more aggressive manner that he doesn't have time for it when I asked why. I did come across the same guy last night. So I thought I would have some fun if he lives long enough. So I played my flank, did what I would do. Then when I linked up with him on the other side. He was in a 1 vs 1. I held my fire, let him get killed and then helped by killing his foe. He started to rage and I replied with "I have all the time in the world". He did remember my nick from a few days before... and simply replied with "touche"

 

That said... I do get loss streaks when turning on 200% XP etc. But I also have win streaks when doing it. Today I got all my daily grinds done on the first win with reserves on. Yesterday, two of my grinds had to go in the 2nd reserve to get their win. It happens. It's annoying when it happens. But I know I will get the favour returned later. As my Obj 430 II got 3 wins with 200% today. So not complaining. And it was my last 200% for now.

 

Is it toxic? It a way yes. But I don't see it too often. Well said in chat that it's the reason for it that is, for it to be an issue for me personally. I'm willing to guess XVM causes way more of that then personal reserves do. And if they are pr game, how many should 1 hour be converted to? 4 or 5 seems like a fair number tbh. And I would not mind that it was done that way either. But I suspect some would complain either way even then, or find an excuse for it.

 

I wouldn't say PR's should be converted as such, just that they would last for a given amount of games - if that takes one hour or two (or even three if 8 out of 10 Cats is on & I'm being severely distracted by Rachael) - the reserve would remain active until the player has played the given amount of games.



Erwin_Von_Braun #12 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:26 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 17 June 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

But which 5 did you lose?  Your average WoT team doesn't have five useful players so dwelling on losing some of the cannon fodder is counter productive.

 

It all ends up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy - it matters not what players you lose, the end result will almost certainly be a heavy loss.

Anecdotally, when playing arty I've noticed that if my first three shots miss by a mile I could be my last £ that the end result of the game would not be in my favour.


 



Homer_J #13 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:29 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

 

There is no tin foil hat theory here at all - I think we all have to admit that there are games you WILL lose no matter how well you or the rest of the team plays.

 

No, if all the team plays well then you will win.

 

There are games you lose no matter how well you play but those are opportunities to make credits and at least some exp.  Play well and it can be as good as a win and over much faster.

 

Of course there are players who can't make the best out of a loss but you are probably better off if they do go off and drown, it gives the enemy a false sense of superiority.


Edited by Homer_J, 17 June 2018 - 01:30 PM.


Homer_J #14 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:31 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

 

It all ends up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy - it matters not what players you lose, the end result will almost certainly be a heavy loss.

 

I disagree.

 

I've seen many a battle turned around from certain defeat by the three decent players in a team.

 

It's the difference between a 50% player and a 55% player.  The 50% player gives up and throws his hitpoints away when it looks bad.  The 55% player buckles down and makes himself hard to kill in the hope of turning it round.


Edited by Homer_J, 17 June 2018 - 01:33 PM.


Erwin_Von_Braun #15 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:33 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 17 June 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

No, if all the team plays well then you will win.

 

There are games you lose no matter how well you play but those are opportunities to make credits and at least some exp.  Play well and it can be as good as a win and over much faster.

 

Of course there are players who can't make the best out of a loss but you are probably better off if they do go off and drown, it gives the enemy a false sense of superiority.

 

The issue is getting that team to play well - the XVM whores that believe everything it tells them are the biggest culprits - the point I was trying to make is that reserves exacerbate the problem

Erwin_Von_Braun #16 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:36 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 17 June 2018 - 12:31 PM, said:

I disagree.

 

I've seen many a battle turned around from certain defeat by the three decent players in a team.

 

It's the difference between a 50% player and a 55% player.  The 50% player gives up and throws his hitpoints away when it looks bad.  The 55% player buckles down and makes himself hard to kill in the hope of turning it round.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've taken great pleasure in proving the doom-mongers wrong and turning around what should have been a loss.

Everyone approaches the game differently and, to be quite honest, I can see where these types of player are coming from - time is limited, why waste it on something that, if it's not certain to be a loss, is very likely to be one.

I'm not defending them - I loathe suiciders & report them at every opportunity, but with an open mind I can see why they do what they do.



vasilinhorulezz #17 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:38 PM

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Stop blaming everything else, except the people!!!

It's not the reserves fault that guy is a scumbag,

it's not team damage mechanic's fault people find it fun to teamkill,

because "insert reason here", and so on...



Homer_J #18 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:41 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

The issue is getting that team to play well - the XVM whores that believe everything it tells them are the biggest culprits - the point I was trying to make is that reserves exacerbate the problem

 

They exacerbate the problem of idiots being idiots yes.

 

The real negative influence reserves have is allowing people to progress through the tech trees faster.



Long_Range_Sniper #19 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:43 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

There is no tin foil hat theory here at all - I think we all have to admit that there are games you WILL lose no matter how well you or the rest of the team plays.

 

Total rubbish. If the team play well then they win.

 

They may not know why they played well, they may not be consistent in how they played, and they may not know how they won. But if all 15 players do things better than the other 15 players then they will win.

 

You might lose a game on an RNG throw of the dice at the end of the game and draw scorn and derision from the dead players watching. But that always forgets the guy who died in the YOLO scout at the start for zero spotting and zero damage.

 

As Homer has outlined you can turn a game on many occasions as an individual, and it's one of the reasons players end up with well above average winrates. Even just thinking it's down to reserves, or XVM, or the map, or your team is just finding excuses as to why it's your team lose and never you.

 

I lose games, and if the team I'm in lose then no doubt I could have played better.

 

View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 17 June 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

It got me thinking, randoms are a selfish game mode to begin with, there is very little in the way of co-ordinated team-play and it is my thinking that Reserves make it worse.

 

It's this thinking that contributes to below average winrates, and below average performance for teams. If you approach randoms as a "selfish game mode" you're already conditioned to look at the map from a single perspective and not view it as positioning your tank for a win. If every light tank viewed randoms as "selfish" they'd never spot. Artillery wouldn't take out the right tank that's a threat. TD's wouldn't relocate to protect a falling flank. Mediums wouldn't rush back to de-cap. Heavies wouldn't block shots to protect their team.

 

How do you think well above average solo winrates in randoms are achieved? Playing selfishly?



Erwin_Von_Braun #20 Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:48 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 17 June 2018 - 12:41 PM, said:

 

They exacerbate the problem of idiots being idiots yes.

 

The real negative influence reserves have is allowing people to progress through the tech trees faster.

 

That's kinda my point - whilst reserves are good for individual progress, they really don't contribute to good gameplay.




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