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Why do people dislike indirect fire so much?


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WindSplitter1 #1 Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:00 PM

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Not just SPGs in our current WoT iteration but also WoT Excalibur.

 

From the translated VK article it was cancelled, sure, but let's say it was in the works.

 

Again, Helis and Strike Aircraft aside, what's the issue with indirect fire through call-ins and artillery fire by support classes that makes people so upset?

 

I don't know why and would welcome a developed answer instead of the "arty is c*ncer, zero skill, pls remove, no more sky clowns, etc".



Flid_Merchant #2 Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:06 PM

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I think it basically comes down to the fact you can't shoot back. It's like being stealth shot but x10.

Nethraniel #3 Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:09 PM

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I guess it is mostly about the range more or less all across the map and the ability to hit targets from upward angles. So, the arty does not need to position itself in harms way to hit almost everything, and it adds a third dimension of defensive thinking for everyone else. You do not only need to think about direct firing angles, but also about the incoming strikes that can get you even behind solid cover. Combined with the inability to get a chance of firing back at the arty. Same goes for indirect fire consumables like airstrikes. There is not much you can do against them. Not even through positioning. That all might not be true in all cases. But from my observations that is the main problem, people have with indirect damage. 

FluffyRedFox #4 Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:22 PM

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Because there's no form of counter play for the person being shot at and no, playing "arty-safe" does not count as counter play. Not trying to win the game by avoiding key map positions because they're not "arty-safe" is a joke for being the way to counter arty when not playing another arty.

This is why arty has this unpopular thing to it (I don't want to flat out call it unpopular because having no backup for it but I forgot the wording for this :v) because it combines two mechanics that are just awful for the people playing against it - Indirect fire and it being HE based. The first I've already said, but for the 2nd point  - This is part of the reason why the Jap heavies are disliked. You're in your heavy tank, you can use your armour to your advantage by angling / sidescraping / hull-downing against typical tanks but Type 5? Type 5 does not care for your armour, I'll do 500+ damage to your sidescraping heavy because screw you! How do you play against that?

Now take away the unbalanced armour of the Jap heavies and replace it with indirect fire. You now have artillery, but its even worse to play against now as its not actually there shooting you. With the Jap heavies, you at least have the option of gold-spamming the sh*t out of them to mitigate one of their issues. 

 

In short: I dislike indirect fire because you can't play against it in a way that doesn't negatively impact your game.



ThinGun #5 Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:33 PM

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Because ... wah wah wah - it hurts me.  Boo hoo, I'm so special I should have the game changed so I never lose.  Cos, you know .. reasons and stats and stuff.

 

 

The above post may not contain 100& of phact.



Rozbrus #6 Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:34 PM

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View PostWindSplitter1, on 24 June 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

Not just SPGs in our current WoT iteration but also WoT Excalibur.

 

From the translated VK article it was cancelled, sure, but let's say it was in the works.

 

Again, Helis and Strike Aircraft aside, what's the issue with indirect fire through call-ins and artillery fire by support classes that makes people so upset?

 

I don't know why and would welcome a developed answer instead of the "arty is c*ncer, zero skill, pls remove, no more sky clowns, etc".

 

What do you prefer? A man with a knife or a gun you see and can react? Or a sniper who kills you without you even noticing?

Jigabachi #7 Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:38 PM

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The issue with arty was the fact that you were able to oneshot people across the map while comfortably sitting in the base - which completely broke the already shaky "risk+skill=reward" balance. Not being able to shoot back isn't a problem - as long as it's balanced. But that was just horribly bad gamedesign.

The rework fixed that to some extent, but the damage was already there and it burned so deep into people's brains that they would still whine about it when a hit from arty would just do one single point of damage.

Arty still needs quite a bit of rebalance, but compared to a few years ago it's nothing but a minor problem right now.

 

btw: You have a similar problem with snipers in shooters. Take the Battlefield series. When I played that, I always chose servers with sniperlimits, otherwise it would get really annoying. Especially on the hardcore mode, where they were able to oneshot you by hitting your little toe.

 

 

View PostRozbrus, on 24 June 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

What do you prefer? A man with a knife or a gun you see and can react? Or a sniper who kills you without you even noticing?

A sniper killing you without noticing is actually quite a good death. I would prefer that over a slow and painful death where I try to push my guts back into my belly or listen to funny bubbling sounds coming out of the holes in my chest.


 

Edited by NickMustaine, 25 June 2018 - 08:15 AM.


Mko #8 Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:59 PM

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It prevents pushing. It makes the game less dynamic. It forces camping and hiding. It causes the gameplay to be very stagnant in some cases. It punishes players who actually want to play and are on the front line.



Tankyouverymuch2 #9 Posted 24 June 2018 - 06:10 PM

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The worst part is not knowing when you'll get hit... I usually wait until I see one of my teammates is stunned, then I proceed. :D

Wintermute_1 #10 Posted 24 June 2018 - 06:26 PM

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View PostWindSplitter1, on 24 June 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

I don't know why and would welcome a developed answer instead of the "arty is c*ncer, zero skill, pls remove, no more sky clowns, etc".

 

You might not want that but i guarentee its what you'll get.


Edited by Wintermute_1, 24 June 2018 - 08:46 PM.


Flid_Merchant #11 Posted 24 June 2018 - 07:02 PM

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View PostJigabachi, on 24 June 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

A sniper killing you without noticing is actually quite a good death. I would prefer that over a slow and painful death where I try to push my guts into my belly or listen to funny bubbling sounds coming out of the holes in my chest.

 

In my limited experience you wouldn't realise what has happened until a couple of hours later. But that's another story.

Bexleyheath #12 Posted 24 June 2018 - 07:14 PM

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The reason why arty and such indirect fire is so annoying in every game it's implemented:

 

"Imagine two professional boxers going at it in the ring. The fight goes back and forth with each boxer, focusing intensly and doing his very best to defeat his opponent. When suddenly... an audience member throws an empty beer bottle smack in the back of the head of one of the boxers, knocking him out! The referee deems the audience member to be the winner of the fight and tosses him the belt."

 

See?


Edited by Bexleyheath, 24 June 2018 - 07:15 PM.


Bordhaw #13 Posted 24 June 2018 - 07:30 PM

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View PostFlid_Merchant, on 24 June 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

I think it basically comes down to the fact you can't shoot back. It's like being stealth shot but x10.

 

Ah yes, just like invisible TDs or auto-loaders then. 

snowlywhite #14 Posted 24 June 2018 - 07:53 PM

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the reason is because most ppl. are hypocrites.

 

do I like arty when I'm in my bottom tier heavy? I f hate it.

 

Do I like arty when I'm in my bottom tier heavy and they have a defender as top tier heavy while we have a tiger 2 as top tier heavy? I f love it.

 

honestly, the only thing I don't understand is why ppl. actually play arty(beside missions). God knows it's boring and you have very little control on the result. But than ppl. love to camp for 10 mins a td just to take a potshot at you after you actually played for 10 mins, so...


Edited by snowlywhite, 24 June 2018 - 07:54 PM.


jack_timber #15 Posted 24 June 2018 - 07:56 PM

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Well I love to lob a rather large shell in the direction of some spotted tank, I don't discriminate any Red is a viable target....

Jigabachi #16 Posted 24 June 2018 - 07:56 PM

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View PostBexleyheath, on 24 June 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

The reason why arty and such indirect fire is so annoying in every game it's implemented:

 

"Imagine a dumb muscular bruiser and an innocent kid going at it in the street. The fight goes back and forth with the small one doing his very best to evade his opponent's blows. When suddenly... a random guy throws an empty beer bottle smack in the back of the big guy, knocking him out! The arriving ambulance and police deems the stranger to be the hero of the day and pays him a fine meal in a good restaurant."

 

See?

It's more likle this:

"Imagine a dumb muscular bruiser and an innocent kid going at it in the street. The fight goes back and forth with the small one doing his very best to evade his opponent's blows. When suddenly... a random guy throws an empty beer bottle smack in the back of the big guy, knocking him out! The arriving ambulance and police deems the stranger to be the hero of the day and pays him a fine meal in a good restaurant."



Desyatnik_Pansy #17 Posted 24 June 2018 - 08:00 PM

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View PostBordhaw, on 24 June 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

Ah yes, just like invisible TDs or auto-loaders then. 

 

I'm not sure an autoloader directly counts since you can simply outplay them, though of course you will more often just get yolo'd and lose the health for it because they immediately burn the kit just to unload that clip but nonetheless, that still means you can do something to them besides sitting behind a building or camping redline. In the invisible TD Case, while annoying as crap, you can still put hard cover between them very easily, and they're not just going to casually shoot you all game from A1 Or something.



soul3ater #18 Posted 24 June 2018 - 08:10 PM

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View PostBordhaw, on 24 June 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

 

Ah yes, just like invisible TDs or auto-loaders then. 

 

by looking at the map, you can predict were TD's usually go and play accordingly by using the terrain and cover that is provided. you see enemy has FV4005, what do you do? you certainly don't run into enemy TD positions till they're spotted then you can maneuver around that with that info. 

 

If you know the enemy team has an auto-loader you A) never go alone and B)don't sit in front of them. the occasional yolo from auo loaders can be annoying but they rarely survive if your team has a functioning brain.

 

now with arty, there is literally nothing you can do about it, yes you can stay in cover and hide behind a building, but for you to win you will have to advance at some point and bam there it is again. 

 

it's a silly comparison that I see all the time, I hope this cleared it up for you regarding what you just compared.


Edited by soul3ater, 24 June 2018 - 08:10 PM.


TheComfyChair #19 Posted 24 June 2018 - 08:17 PM

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:popcorn:   In before subtle arty thread gets binned

Sunshinetrooper #20 Posted 24 June 2018 - 08:18 PM

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View PostMko, on 24 June 2018 - 04:59 PM, said:

It prevents pushing. It makes the game less dynamic. It forces camping and hiding. It causes the gameplay to be very stagnant in some cases. It punishes players who actually want to play and are on the front line.

 

I find the opposite happens without Arty, people dig in and when one side has more numbers, the other team doesn't move and will stay in the open hiding behind a bush. 

Edited by Sunshinetrooper, 24 June 2018 - 08:23 PM.





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