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Jigabachi #641 Posted 14 July 2018 - 08:57 AM

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View Postm1x_angelico, on 13 July 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

However, even if I was able to give replays, which I'm prevented by name and shame rule, how many of these forumites would not nit pick them to absurdity only to conclude I should play better or these cheater are just good players? I guess we'll never know, but if other treads are any show, a lolot.

That rule really is a good excuse, isn't it?

Luckily, two people pointed out a completely save option how to share those replays with everyone who is interested. But you ignored that.

And you don't dare to share your evidence because people might disagree with it? But why would that even happen when it's watertight evidence?

No... seriously. What you still fail to understand is that people don't only ask for evidence to prove if there is rigging going on or not. It's also asked for in order to judge their credibility and if their argumentation makes sense. In other words: If they are smart enough to draw sensible conclusions and if they are able to reliably judge what happens in a match.

People come here claiming all kinds of things - as facts. But when they can't even provide one single piece of evidence, what does that tell us about their credibly?

 

Block Quote

 Still, as you may see from the post, he asked me to point him to  where bad players pointed towards an issue, good players ignored them and called them names and this issue was confirmed. I did that.

I still don't see how that is the case there.

You also have to elaborate that part about "pointing towards an issue". Would you please explain some of those issues?


Edited by Jigabachi, 14 July 2018 - 09:02 AM.


Ferditude #642 Posted 14 July 2018 - 08:12 PM

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View PostKozzy, on 11 July 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

 

This made me laugh.  So you're saying when looking for future trends we should totally ignore past data?  Incredible.  This forum never ceases to amaze me.  Also, you DO realise that those replays included games FROM 10,000 games ago TO now (or when the analysis was carried out)?
 

 

You think 'control' means something different to the dictionary, going on and on about it won't change the definition.  Do you think people who fly remote controlled planes are in 'control' of those planes?
 

Congratulations on failing to grasp something when it's spelt out. 

No wonder u can detect anything yourself



Kozzy #643 Posted 14 July 2018 - 08:31 PM

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View PostFerditude, on 14 July 2018 - 07:12 PM, said:

Congratulations on failing to grasp something when it's spelt out. 

No wonder u can detect anything yourself

 

I can detect what myself?  If the answer is a 'tin foil hat wearing numpty' then yes, it seems so.

 

View Postm1x_angelico, on 13 July 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

However, even if I was able to give replays, which I'm prevented by name and shame rule, how many of these forumites would not nit pick them to absurdity only to conclude I should play better or these cheater are just good players? I guess we'll never know, but if other treads are any show, a lolot.

 

As has been mentioned by others; there are no rules about sending replays to other players directly.  I guess that now you know this you will be passing it around for others to view?



TANKOPPRESSION #644 Posted 14 July 2018 - 08:52 PM

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View Postm1x_angelico, on 13 July 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

I'm just pointing out that you can very easily fall into the pit of logical fallacies, while trying to prove perceived logical fallacies of the other side:

 

Someone points to an issue => He has (in my opinion) low ability => I sort him in the Dunning–Kruger effect group => I therefore dismiss merits of what he is saying, without further examination or thought, solely because he is sorted in the Dunning–Kruger effect group and thus has cognitive bias.

 

There were many instances where players with (perceived) low ability pointed to an issue, which was later confirmed (and corrected) by WG. If their perception is biased, how did they arrive at a correct conclusion about existence of an issue? Dismissing someone because you think he has low abilities, especially in cases when you have massive reports of the same issue, is usually at this person's peril.



DracheimFlug #645 Posted Yesterday, 08:42 AM

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View PostKozzy, on 13 July 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

 

Again, you appear to be getting there; control != determining the results.

 

 

 

It means a high level of influence, not merely 'influence' though. 



lotusblossom #646 Posted Yesterday, 09:54 AM

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where did OP go, have they died, given up or just started this post off to set you lot going and is now just watching from the side-lines :hiding:

UrQuan #647 Posted Yesterday, 10:36 AM

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View PostDorander, on 14 July 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

 

A path you could take, is post the replay and ask people to provide explanations for what they can then witness, without accusing anyone of cheating. That should absolve you from violating the "naming and shaming" rule, because you're not accusing anyone of anything, you're just trying to understand what's going on.

 

I don't think there are many people who'd seriously claim this game does not have cheaters, including in football mode. Those who do tend to get as much mockery as the people who claim the game is flooded with them. I also agree that there are some people who are dismissive and patronizing, and some who are simply jaded. However without an actual event to witness, there's very little to actually think about. Using myself as an example, I don't really need to think about the probability that this game has cheaters, I'm fairly sure there are always some. I don't need to think about some people being rude, there are always rude people. These are things experienced forumites tend to gloss over because they pretty much go without saying.

 

What people are asking replays/evidence for, is to determine what's going on *in this specific case*. Someone comes here on the forum and makes a claim, you simply have the burden of proof. It's not about taking people from point A to point B, it's not about people not knowing there's a possibility, it is, like you said, about how strong your claim is and why you're even telling people about it. If you want to see this difference apply in practice, find some threads that involves one specific case of a person cheating with some evidence provided to support that claim (screenshots, replays, what have you). You will find forumites there talking about the matter at hand, and in some cases, conclude that a person is most likely cheating, and in other cases, provide alternative explanations for what is seen. Compare it to a thread in which people make broad generalizations based on a single event (with or without replay) and you'll find a lot of people rolling their eyes and making references to aluminum.

 

The point is, how you present your argument matters. People all too frequently seem upset that the general crowd here is unwilling to take their word for anything, but why should we? This is not a homogenous group suitable for polarized positions. People have their own beliefs, and if people want others to adopt their beliefs, they have to do a little better than "I really really think this is true."

 

 

Best post so far. On why replays matter & why providing evidence to claims is a good thing & can help you & the playerbase as a whole in addressing issues.




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