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The next thing I need to learn...


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Tramp_In_Armour #1 Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:31 AM

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I've suffered three days of almost constant defeats and I figured that I had to be doing something wrong (I don't buy the 'rigged game' excuse). I've gotten better at handling my tank, finding good locations, helping the push and reading the mini-map - or so I thought. Watching my replays, however, I noticed that, while I'm better at watching for the enemy on the mini-map (helped by the audible ping when new enemy is spotted), I totally fail to notice my own team and how they're progressing. Just yesterday I was on Mountain Pass with my TD, providing overwatch with another TD on a critical corridor. Another three of our tanks confronted an enemy push there, so I thought we had a strong chance of success. After barely a minute, however, I noticed the enemy was getting bolder, and that's when I noticed that our three guys had been destroyed (just on the other side of the rock from me), and it was just me and the other TD left. By the time I realized it was no longer a good place to be, it was too late to relocate, and we both died as the enemy swept through us. Our flank collapsed and it was another lost game.

 

Too many times, I've been battling away when, suddenly, I notice all the faded out icons of my team on the list, and I think 'what the hell happened to my team?'. I didn't notice they were dropping like flies until it was too late. There are times I wonder if, had I noticed sooner my team's poor performance in an area of the map, whether I could have reassessed my own situation and relocated to compensate. Or even gone to help. I wonder if this could have prevented a loss in some cases.

 

I try not to get tunnel vision in a game but, bad as I am at multitasking, there is so much necessary information to have to take in and be aware of. I focus too much on the red dots rather than the green. At least, this is what I think. Are there any tips some of you better players can provide to help with total awareness (rather than half-awareness) of how the battle is going, and where you can provide the needed effort? (I do have my minimap at near max)

 

I play mostly mobile tanks, so I don't have the excuse that I can't relocate in time. I imagine it's even harder with slow tanks like the Churchill (which I enjoy, but have an even worse winrate in, which may further highlight my biggest problem). What's the best way of reading ahead of time whether to relocate before it's too late? How do I read my team better, and the flow of battle better? Any strategic advice that doesn't require a mod would be appreciated.

 

(I know the likely answer is watch the mini-map and gain more experience, but I wanted to check that I wasn't missing something else, like maybe something that's rarely mentioned)



DutchBaron_ #2 Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:38 AM

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Lol happens to me also, recently on Paris I was brawling under the bridge, I was top tier and I already killed there top tier tank, then I suddenly got shot in the back, I looked at the map and all my support, like five tanks were killed without me noticing and the enemy had pushed over the bridge to start shooting me in my back.

Thornvalley #3 Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:39 AM

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Make the mini-map larger and keep looking at it :).

 

Know the maps.

 

Analyze the enemy team (and your team) prior to battle. Make a plan where your tank is the most effective.

 

Change your plan early if your team deploys in an unexpected way.

 

Don't go alone.

 

Don't camp where you can't shot the enemy.



Enforcer1975 #4 Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:47 AM

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View PostDutchBaron_, on 05 July 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

Lol happens to me also, recently on Paris I was brawling under the bridge, I was top tier and I already killed there top tier tank, then I suddenly got shot in the back, I looked at the map and all my support, like five tanks were killed without me noticing and the enemy had pushed over the bridge to start shooting me in my back.

 

And you wonder how they got beaten.....

Playing arty to get my mission done i took the time watchign my team instead of fapping with the other hand and saw so many mistakes. Most prominent one was on live oaks where we had 7 tanks and the enemy 2 tanks at the bottom of the bridge next to the peninsula. I urged them to rush the two tanks to force the enemy to move but nope...they kept trying to peek on those two and get farmed by those behind the ridgeline. If they had rushed they would be in cover from the ones on top but were too afraid to push and use their numbers to their advantage. 



marlboro80 #5 Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:55 AM

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If you post some replays maybe some people can give tips what to improve.
Situational awareness is mostly a major thing, nothing you learn from one day to the other.

Long_Range_Sniper #6 Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:59 AM

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View PostTramp_In_Armour, on 05 July 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

Just yesterday I was on Mountain Pass with my TD, providing overwatch with another TD on a critical corridor. Another three of our tanks confronted an enemy push there, so I thought we had a strong chance of success. 

 

What worries me about these sentences is the use of the phrase "critical corridor". Without a replay I've no idea which corridor you mean.

 

map.jpg

 

If it was the red corridor then that's not critical. It's the location many players go game after game, and it's like the beach on overlord. It takes you ages to get there, doesn't win map control and is easily countered by the enemy even if you win that location. It might win the game sometimes, but in general that's down to luck and the enemy losing, rather than you winning.

 

If you were defending the green corridor in your TD then you were probably doing the right thing, and all you need to keep an eye on is the enemy possibly getting through to the base, or trying a bridge rush. Either way you can defend the corridor and relocate a lot easier than positioning to defend the red corridor.

 

Half the battle is working out which parts of maps give map control, and then where best to take your tank accordingly.



JocMeister #7 Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:11 PM

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View PostTramp_In_Armour, on 05 July 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

I've suffered three days of almost constant defeats and I figured that I had to be doing something wrong (I don't buy the 'rigged game' excuse). I've gotten better at handling my tank, finding good locations, helping the push and reading the mini-map - or so I thought. Watching my replays, however, I noticed that, while I'm better at watching for the enemy on the mini-map (helped by the audible ping when new enemy is spotted), I totally fail to notice my own team and how they're progressing. Just yesterday I was on Mountain Pass with my TD, providing overwatch with another TD on a critical corridor. Another three of our tanks confronted an enemy push there, so I thought we had a strong chance of success. After barely a minute, however, I noticed the enemy was getting bolder, and that's when I noticed that our three guys had been destroyed (just on the other side of the rock from me), and it was just me and the other TD left. By the time I realized it was no longer a good place to be, it was too late to relocate, and we both died as the enemy swept through us. Our flank collapsed and it was another lost game.

 

Too many times, I've been battling away when, suddenly, I notice all the faded out icons of my team on the list, and I think 'what the hell happened to my team?'. I didn't notice they were dropping like flies until it was too late. There are times I wonder if, had I noticed sooner my team's poor performance in an area of the map, whether I could have reassessed my own situation and relocated to compensate. Or even gone to help. I wonder if this could have prevented a loss in some cases.

 

I try not to get tunnel vision in a game but, bad as I am at multitasking, there is so much necessary information to have to take in and be aware of. I focus too much on the red dots rather than the green. At least, this is what I think. Are there any tips some of you better players can provide to help with total awareness (rather than half-awareness) of how the battle is going, and where you can provide the needed effort? (I do have my minimap at near max)

 

I play mostly mobile tanks, so I don't have the excuse that I can't relocate in time. I imagine it's even harder with slow tanks like the Churchill (which I enjoy, but have an even worse winrate in, which may further highlight my biggest problem). What's the best way of reading ahead of time whether to relocate before it's too late? How do I read my team better, and the flow of battle better? Any strategic advice that doesn't require a mod would be appreciated.

 

(I know the likely answer is watch the mini-map and gain more experience, but I wanted to check that I wasn't missing something else, like maybe something that's rarely mentioned)

 

When you drive a car you check side and back mirrors all the time. You just have to make a habit out of doing the same thing in WoT. Check the minimap at least once every 15 seconds. Never stay zoomed in. Shoot, zoom out and check around you.

 

If you look at the top streamers playing you will see they spend 99% of the game fully zoomed out in "3d view".



Tramp_In_Armour #8 Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:20 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 05 July 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

 

What worries me about these sentences is the use of the phrase "critical corridor". Without a replay I've no idea which corridor you mean.

 

map.jpg

 

If it was the red corridor then that's not critical. It's the location many players go game after game, and it's like the beach on overlord. It takes you ages to get there, doesn't win map control and is easily countered by the enemy even if you win that location. It might win the game sometimes, but in general that's down to luck and the enemy losing, rather than you winning.

 

If you were defending the green corridor in your TD then you were probably doing the right thing, and all you need to keep an eye on is the enemy possibly getting through to the base, or trying a bridge rush. Either way you can defend the corridor and relocate a lot easier than positioning to defend the red corridor.

 

Half the battle is working out which parts of maps give map control, and then where best to take your tank accordingly.

 

This is the replay of the battle: http://wotreplays.eu...armour-achilles

Though it's just an example of mistakes I've made in other battles - and watching the replay, it seems I didn't remember the battle exactly right.

 

You're right about the red corridor - I don't like it at all. I was defending the green corridor (south start) from K4. Had I noticed better how we were going to lose the corridor, I would have relocated to maybe J5 to try and slow enemy down. Made some dumb mistakes.



Long_Range_Sniper #9 Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:26 PM

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View PostTramp_In_Armour, on 05 July 2018 - 11:20 AM, said:

 

This is the replay of the battle: http://wotreplays.eu...armour-achilles

Though it's just an example of mistakes I've made in other battles - and watching the replay, it seems I didn't remember the battle exactly right.

 

You're right about the red corridor - I don't like it at all. I was defending the green corridor (south start) from K4. Had I noticed better how we were going to lose the corridor, I would have relocated to maybe J5 to try and slow enemy down. Made some dumb mistakes.

 

I've had a quick look and I'd say your mistake was pushing beyond the corner where the large hill is. You were sat there with only a TD in front and your heavies taking ages to come up from behind. From that location you can cover two possible angles and still pull back to shoot the bridge, or go down fighting. You pushed forward behind a small rise when your heavies had not caught up. You were then stuck. You couldn't pull back because the enemy now controlled the ground you needed to cross to go back to where you'd been sat. You were then spotted, and the enemy had you from two angles.

 

Maybe you should have waited for your heavies to catch up, and if they didn't push you were no worse off as you'd be forcing the enemy to push onto you from a position you could defend better.



Bigtime_Alarm #10 Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:29 PM

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The best one is when  your  team are mostly ok, you concentrate for 10 seconds on a shot and half of them died and 5 enemy tanks teleported in behind you.

Tramp_In_Armour #11 Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:30 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 05 July 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

 

I've had a quick look and I'd say your mistake was pushing beyond the corner where the large hill is. You were sat there with only a TD in front and your heavies taking ages to come up from behind. From that location you can cover two possible angles and still pull back to shoot the bridge, or go down fighting. You pushed forward behind a small rise when your heavies had not caught up. You were then stuck. You couldn't pull back because the enemy now controlled the ground you needed to cross to go back to where you'd been sat. You were then spotted, and the enemy had you from two angles.

 

Maybe you should have waited for your heavies to catch up, and if they didn't push you were no worse off as you'd be forcing the enemy to push onto you from a position you could defend better.

 

Yeah, I think I simply assumed that the heavies would get there and I wanted to be ready, and to discourage the enemy from coming further. Didn't think that the heavies would dawdle in the middle for a while - my bad.

Long_Range_Sniper #12 Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:37 PM

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View PostTramp_In_Armour, on 05 July 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

 

Yeah, I think I simply assumed that the heavies would get there and I wanted to be ready, and to discourage the enemy from coming further. Didn't think that the heavies would dawdle in the middle for a while - my bad.

 

Where I used to work we used to say "Assumption is the mother of all XXXX ups!"

 

We all fall prone to it in World of Tanks. You assume one of your team will do something and they do the opposite. The only concrete way to deal with assumptions is tooning, and even then mistakes happen.

 

At mid tiers it's even more challenging. It gets better at higher tiers, but you still can be in tier 8-10 games and the beach on Overlord is so full you had to get there first to grab a sunbed.



Tramp_In_Armour #13 Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:39 PM

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Here's another replay in same tank: http://wotreplays.eu...armour-achilles

 

And here's another in my Leopard where I simply didn't notice that the team mate following me wasn't following me anymore, and that the tank following me was actually the enemy: http://wotreplays.eu...k_16_02_leopard



Tramp_In_Armour #14 Posted 05 July 2018 - 12:55 PM

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Here's one in my Cromwell on Himmelsdorf. I actually realised as I was heading for the hill that maybe I shouldn't push further, but I didn't want to abandon the heavy. Had a complete brain shutdown as I wondered what to do, and hoping another tank would push from the other slope: http://wotreplays.eu...armour-cromwell

XxKuzkina_MatxX #15 Posted 05 July 2018 - 01:25 PM

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View PostTramp_In_Armour, on 05 July 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

Here's one in my Cromwell on Himmelsdorf. I actually realised as I was heading for the hill that maybe I shouldn't push further, but I didn't want to abandon the heavy. Had a complete brain shutdown as I wondered what to do, and hoping another tank would push from the other slope: http://wotreplays.eu...armour-cromwell

 

Get the hell out of dodge!

 

Your top tier med the mod1 was enjoying himself down in the city feasting on a tier 6s and 7s so no real firepower on the hill.

The T29 is a very good tank in this MM but both of you can't hold 4 or 5 tanks including a top tier autoloader.

The cromwell is a paper medium, you need a cloud of meat shields in front of you so you can use it properly.

Pick the main thrust and follow it OR pick a nice and quiet area of the map to snipe from a distance.

I am interested whether you won this one or didn't. My guess is that you won.

 

Same with the Mountain pass replay...why did you get ahead of your heavies and into the front line?

 

Typical mountain pass gameplay...

Try to get a couple of shots across the middle from G6.

If your heavies/meds advance to H4 corner. You can peek the corner at G5 and try to support.

If this area falls, you can fall back to the rock at G6 area and try to use the bushes to the sides of the rock. Remember to double bush.

If the enemy team is yoloing to your base, which can be judged by their numbers and HP. Then fall back to the hill in your base at H8 where you can make a last stand.

 

Looking into what your teams did in both replays, Mountain pass and Fjords, winning those games would've been really really hard. Any advice given will help you conform and get maximum use of these battles.

 

You picked two replays which stopped me for a while. :)



Tramp_In_Armour #16 Posted 05 July 2018 - 01:47 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 05 July 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

 

Get the hell out of dodge!

 

Your top tier med the mod1 was enjoying himself down in the city feasting on a tier 6s and 7s so no real firepower on the hill.

The T29 is a very good tank in this MM but both of you can't hold 4 or 5 tanks including a top tier autoloader.

The cromwell is a paper medium, you need a cloud of meat shields in front of you so you can use it properly.

Pick the main thrust and follow it OR pick a nice and quiet area of the map to snipe from a distance.

I am interested whether you won this one or didn't. My guess is that you won.

 

Same with the Mountain pass replay...why did you get ahead of your heavies and into the front line?

 

Typical mountain pass gameplay...

Try to get a couple of shots across the middle from G6.

If your heavies/meds advance to H4 corner. You can peek the corner at G5 and try to support.

If this area falls, you can fall back to the rock at G6 area and try to use the bushes to the sides of the rock. Remember to double bush.

If the enemy team is yoloing to your base, which can be judged by their numbers and HP. Then fall back to the hill in your base at H8 where you can make a last stand.

 

Looking into what your teams did in both replays, Mountain pass and Fjords, winning those games would've been really really hard. Any advice given will help you conform and get maximum use of these battles.

 

You picked two replays which stopped me for a while. :)

 

I was trying to play my TD more aggressively. I really like the Achilles. It handles well (for a TD) and I was getting plenty of damage with it, but winrate was in the low forties with it. I thought I was maybe playing too passively, hanging back and only farming damage when the enemy broke through and gave me lots of targets. Wanted to find a way to support an attack, rather than just backstopping it, otherwise I was just relying on my team to win and failing to influence the game. But on Mountain Pass, yeah, I pushed too far.

 

Tempted to push too much in the Cromwell too because I want the team to win areas. I'm probably too impulsive, but I notice how teams often give the map to the enemy by camping or not pushing enough. Still not got the hang of when to push and when not to.

 

NB. And Conform? Interesting choice of word. Could you elaborate on that? Am I being too 'out there'?


Edited by Tramp_In_Armour, 05 July 2018 - 01:49 PM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #17 Posted 05 July 2018 - 02:06 PM

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View PostTramp_In_Armour, on 05 July 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

 

I was trying to play my TD more aggressively. I really like the Achilles. It handles well (for a TD) and I was getting plenty of damage with it, but winrate was in the low forties with it. I thought I was maybe playing too passively, hanging back and only farming damage when the enemy broke through and gave me lots of targets. Wanted to find a way to support an attack, rather than just backstopping it, otherwise I was just relying on my team to win and failing to influence the game. But on Mountain Pass, yeah, I pushed too far.

 

Low tier TDs doesn't have enough hp to trade at least not at the start of the battle. So supporting from a distance is your best choice most of the time.

 

As the battle progress, you process information. Which tank is where? How many of them left? How much HP on a certain flank? Later on you can use these information to make a decision on what your next move will be. Don't be surprised if you gather all this info and fail to make the correct decision. It takes some time to make the right move based on the available information.

 

Tempted to push too much in the Cromwell too because I want the team to win areas. I'm probably too impulsive, but I notice how teams often give the map to the enemy by camping or not pushing enough. Still not got the hang of when to push and when not to.

 

NB. And Conform? Interesting choice of word. Could you elaborate on that? Am I being too 'out there'?

 

Conform to the actions of your team and to the shape of the flanks made by them around the map. That's positioning and map awareness. Winning map control is not always a priority considering possible losses of hp and tanks and also considering some map design.

 

In some maps you can have all the control you want and still a couple of campers will stop your push completely.

 

Let me elaborate further on "conform"...

 

In your head draw a contour around your team deployment. Now ask yourself this, where do i need to be with this tank to do the most awful things to the enemy team? Also, where do i want to be in this tank to help win the game and not just farm damage? :)


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 05 July 2018 - 02:13 PM.





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