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Introducing Balanced games


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Simeon85 #41 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:03 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

 

I don't need a special treatment... even if the teams will be balanced we will have the same MM...I think you have some cognitive issues..

 

 

Ironically you haven't thought this through.

 

To have a this 'special MM' you request that achieves some arbitrary level of 'balance' you would have to have better players having different MM to worse players, otherwise it is impossible.

 

What you want is unfair MM, you want the MM to take the good players and make sure they are always matched against other good players or always have bad players on their team. You would basically be punishing players for playing well, much like the OP's retarded suggestion.

 

We all currently get the same MM, if you play a tier 8 tank and someone else plays the same tier 8 tank then you both will get bad teams, good teams, average teams, tier 10 games, tier 8 games etc. 

 

It's then how well you play that is the only thing that matters.

 

As Kozzy said, this thread and the response from any within it, are just people asking for an easier game because they can't play well enough to win games.

 

They want people better than them handicapped by the game, because those people have learnt to play and they can't be bothered to do the same.

 

To put it into an analogy, it is like being at school, in the same class but the smarter kids who study more have to take a harder exam paper than the other kids, but everyone still ends up with the same grades.

 

 



KAOS8989 #42 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:09 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 10 July 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

 

Back then players had to play +5 tier MM.....just saying. You have it much better now. 

 

yes...I agree... but there is plenty of room for improvement... so why you are against ?  the fact we have +-2 is balancing.. the fact we have same type of tanks and same tier 99% of the time is balancing.. the fact we have same number of artys in each team is balancing.. and we can continue...

duijm #43 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:14 PM

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View Postcroki974, on 08 July 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

Hello All;

 

Instead of trying to find the ultimate matchmaking , developpers can create a new game where balanced actions are intoduced by WOT server.

Server can introduce a " Random " counterbalance when score come to 10/15 -- and some time we can see an avalanche effect that end with 0/10-15 score : totally boring --

The Server choose the 5 most powerful actors and add "Handicap" to couterbalance the game.

The form of Handycap could be : scope reduced to x2 / no more radios / blind minimap / Hydraulics sterring troubles / motor defficience and so on.

If the unbalance of game is not reduced, server add more actors with handycap. An extra money/EXP could be of course awarded to " Handycaped gamer "

Could be helpful ?

Regards

Croki

 

I think only bad players will love this mode. So they will the only one who will play it. So what is the point then?

KAOS8989 #44 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:15 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 10 July 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

 

Ironically you haven't thought this through.

 

To have a this 'special MM' you request that achieves some arbitrary level of 'balance' you would have to have better players having different MM to worse players, otherwise it is impossible.

 

What you want is unfair MM, you want the MM to take the good players and make sure they are always matched against other good players or always have bad players on their team. You would basically be punishing players for playing well, much like the OP's retarded suggestion.

 

We all currently get the same MM, if you play a tier 8 tank and someone else plays the same tier 8 tank then you both will get bad teams, good teams, average teams, tier 10 games, tier 8 games etc. 

 

It's then how well you play that is the only thing that matters.

 

As Kozzy said, this thread and the response from any within it, are just people asking for an easier game because they can't play well enough to win games.

 

They want people better than them handicapped by the game, because those people have learnt to play and they can't be bothered to do the same.

 

To put it into an analogy, it is like being at school, in the same class but the smarter kids who study more have to take a harder exam paper than the other kids, but everyone still ends up with the same grades.

 

 

 

I think u have also cognitive issues... dont get me wrong but what you understand through "balanced" ? Did I asked for good players to play only against good players and bad players to play only against worst players? No not at all.. what I think is that if 1 team has 10 tomatos and 5 good players the other team should have the same... not 15 tomatos vs 10 good players and 5 tomatos... and I don't see how this is punish for good players... if u think this is the only way to be a good player then u are not that good my friend

 

btw if you have better stats that don;t make u a better player...also you are as good as your team... you can't perform in a bad team like on a good team...


Edited by KAOS8989, 10 July 2018 - 12:19 PM.


duijm #45 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:17 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 07:46 AM, said:

 

 

stop complaining ... all of you crying if I'm a good player why should I get bad team... well let's see if u are a good player.. if you really are, you will prove that in a balanced team...

MM is already doing sort of balance with tanks types.. most of the time u will get same number of tank types, same tire and at online peak  even the same tank..


 

 

No silly.....that is the problem. In ballanced teams you can not proof this anymore.  If you get better so does the other team.....so it will be much harder to win.

KAOS8989 #46 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:20 PM

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View Postduijm, on 10 July 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

 

No silly.....that is the problem. In ballanced teams you can not proof this anymore.  If you get better so does the other team.....so it will be much harder to win.

 

the u are not that good my friend...if u can perform just vs tomatos... u are tomatoo too

Simeon85 #47 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:21 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

 

I think u have also cognitive issues... dont get me wrong but what you understand through "balanced" ? Did I asked for good players to play only against good players and bad players to play only against worst players? No not at all.. what I think is that if 1 team has 10 tomatos and 5 good players the other team should have the same... not 15 tomatos vs 10 good players and 5 tomatos... and I don't see how this is punish for good players... if u think this is the only way to be a good player then u are not that good my friend

 

Again the lack of understanding is yours.

 

Currently a good player plays the game, he wins more games than other people because he positively influences every team he plays in. Sometimes these teams are bad, sometimes they are good, sometimes they are average but it's the same for everyone and it evens out.

 

What you suggest here -

Block Quote

 No not at all.. what I think is that if 1 team has 10 tomatos and 5 good players the other team should have the same... not 15 tomatos vs 10 good players and 5 tomatos

 

Is skill balancing.

 

By definition you have to treat good players worse and poor players better.

 

The tomatoes in this example, they will ALWAYs get in a team with some good players, and good players WILL ALWAYS get a team tomatoes in it, whatever they do.

 

That is very clearly punishing good players, because currently sometimes they will get in the team with other good players, or less tomatoes. 

 

Also by your suggestion everyone's win rates would get closer to 50%.

 

So why would a player who wins 65% of his games now want to win 50%? 

 

You are punishing that player and treating him unfairly.

 

Block Quote

 if u think this is the only way to be a good player then u are not that good my friend

 

You are the one that is not good, you want the game made easier for you.

 

Learn to play, get better, that is the ONLY FAIR way of winning more games. 

 

The current MM is FAIR.  We all get the same chance of being with or against bad players and have good or bad teams, thus how you do comes down to how well you play.

 

Under your suggestion how well you do is irrelevant because you'll always face the same level of player, so a unicum player can not bother and become terrible at the game, he will still win the same. 

 


Edited by Simeon85, 10 July 2018 - 12:23 PM.


duijm #48 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:22 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:09 AM, said:

 

yes...I agree... but there is plenty of room for improvement... so why you are against ?  the fact we have +-2 is balancing.. the fact we have same type of tanks and same tier 99% of the time is balancing.. the fact we have same number of artys in each team is balancing.. and we can continue...

 

Balancing in tanks is something different! Balancing players you rig mm and punish players with 50%+ winrate.

KAOS8989 #49 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:25 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 10 July 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:

 

Again the lack of understanding is yours.

 

Currently a good player plays the game, he wins more games than other people because he positively influences every team he plays in. Sometimes these teams are bad, sometimes they are good, sometimes they are average but it's the same for everyone and it evens out.

 

What you suggest here -

 

Is skill balancing.

 

By definition you have to treat good players worse and poor players better.

 

The tomatoes in this example, they will ALWAYs get in a team with some good players, and good players WILL ALWAYS get a team tomatoes in it, whatever they do.

 

That is very clearly punishing good players, because currently sometimes they will get in the team with other good players, or less tomatoes. 

 

Also by your suggestion everyone's win rates would get closer to 50%.

 

So why would a player who wins 65% of his games now want to win 50%? 

 

You are punishing that player and treating him unfairly.

 

 

You are the one that is not good, you want the game made easier for you.

 

Learn to play, get better, that is the ONLY FAIR way of winning more games. 

 

The current MM is FAIR.  We all get the same chance of being with or against bad players and have good or bad teams, thus how you do comes down to how well you play.

 

Under your suggestion how well you do is irrelevant because you'll always face the same level of player, so a unicum player can not bother and become terrible at the game, he will still win the same. 

 

my friend... I don;t need anything... my monthly WR is >50% ..so I'm not doing that bad... but games like 0-15  or 15-0 are not fun for anyone

 

one more thing.. you will never get a 100% even teams.. you will always have a delta that will be smaller on peak time and bigger in low online hours.. because it would take to much time to find the perfect balanced 2 teams...


Edited by KAOS8989, 10 July 2018 - 12:29 PM.


duijm #50 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:28 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:20 AM, said:

 

the u are not that good my friend...if u can perform just vs tomatos... u are tomatoo too

 

I already do perform against tomatoes. I just dont want more in my teams only because I do better.  

 

Lets give bad cyclingracers a engine because Froome is so good? Or why not give Vettel less engine power because he has won a race and is good.

Does that sound fair to you? 

 

We win more because we play better.  


Edited by duijm, 10 July 2018 - 12:30 PM.


Kozzy #51 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:28 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

my friend... I don;t need anything... my monthly WR is >50% ..so I'm not doing that bad... but games like 0-15  or 15-0 are not fun for anyone

 

Two things:

 

1) 0-15 or 15-0 games aren't actually that common.

2) 0-15 or 15-0 games still happen when teams have similar average PR among the players.

 

 



Gremlin182 #52 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:29 PM

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All for new ideas that may fix the current mm but all it needs is what used to happen.

 

Player each got games where they were top tier mid tier and bottom tier.

There is little wrong with that its about as balanced as you can get in a random game.

 

If for every game I am up against tier 9 and 10 tanks I get a roughly equal number of games against tier 6 and 7 tanks its all good.

 



KAOS8989 #53 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:31 PM

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View Postduijm, on 10 July 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

 

I already do perform against tomatoes. I just dont want more in my teams only because I do better.  

 

Lets give bad cyclingracers a engine because Froome is so good? Or why not give Vettel less engine power because he has won a race and is good.

Does that sound fair to you? 

 

We win more because we play better.  

:))) ohh my friend u are so wrong... I'm happy that you said about formula 1... do u know that they have regulations about everything... from size to power.. even the weight of the drivers ... they are trying to balance the game... F1 is the most "forced" balanced sport...  or you are tanking without knowing..


Edited by KAOS8989, 10 July 2018 - 12:33 PM.


Kozzy #54 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:33 PM

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View PostGremlin182, on 10 July 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

All for new ideas that may fix the current mm but all it needs is what used to happen.

 

Player each got games where they were top tier mid tier and bottom tier.

There is little wrong with that its about as balanced as you can get in a random game.

 

If for every game I am up against tier 9 and 10 tanks I get a roughly equal number of games against tier 6 and 7 tanks its all good.

 

 

I imagine for this to happen the current template (3/5/7) would need to go in the toilet.  If WG insist on having +/-2 MM then why not just have 5/5/5, 5/10 and 15 as the three templates?
 

View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

:))) ohh my friend u are so wrong... I'm happy that you said about formula 1... do u know that they have regulations about everything... from size to power.. even the weight of the drivers ... they are trying to balance the game... or you are tanking without knowing..

 

What is the regulation on driver skill and making sure they are 'balanced'? ;)
 

KAOS8989 #55 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:35 PM

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View PostGremlin182, on 10 July 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

All for new ideas that may fix the current mm but all it needs is what used to happen.

 

Player each got games where they were top tier mid tier and bottom tier.

There is little wrong with that its about as balanced as you can get in a random game.

 

If for every game I am up against tier 9 and 10 tanks I get a roughly equal number of games against tier 6 and 7 tanks its all good.

 

 

you are getting equal chance but the problem is 3-5-7 table... if would be 5-5-5 then u would get the same number of battles in all 3 categories 
 

View PostKozzy, on 10 July 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

 

What is the regulation on driver skill and making sure they are 'balanced'? ;)

 

F1 is not a "team game"... so you can;t compare from this perspective ... anyway the are balancing the driver... how I told u before even the weight of the driver is regulated... he is not allowed to steer under braking, limited speed in some areas/under safety car... amount of drive tests that they can do..

 

also... most of them are not tomatos..maybe they have 2-3 drivers that are there without being skilled enough but most of them if you give them same car... they will get ~ same result, again you compare things that should not be copared


 

Kozzy #56 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:57 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

 

F1 is not a "team game"... so you can;t compare from this perspective ... anyway the are balancing the driver... how I told u before even the weight of the driver is regulated... he is not allowed to steer under braking, limited speed in some areas/under safety car... amount of drive tests that they can do..

 

also... most of them are not tomatos..maybe they have 2-3 drivers that are there without being skilled enough but most of them if you give them same car... they will get ~ same result, again you compare things that should not be copared

 

None of that has ANYTHING to do with the driver's 'skill'.  In F1 NO drivers are balanced by 'skill'.  Just as in WoT where no team's player's are balanced by skill.

 

View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

 

. he is not allowed to steer under braking,

 

 

 

This part made me laugh... "drivers must brake or steer but not both"?



duijm #57 Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:57 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

:))) ohh my friend u are so wrong... I'm happy that you said about formula 1... do u know that they have regulations about everything... from size to power.. even the weight of the drivers ... they are trying to balance the game... F1 is the most "forced" balanced sport...  or you are tanking without knowing..

 

No you are wrong. Regulations is about the car. Not the driver.  Regulations dont say Vettel wins so next race we ad 10 kg to his car or no more softtires for him.

And in Wot regulations are the same for all players.

 

View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

 

you are getting equal chance but the problem is 3-5-7 table... if would be 5-5-5 then u would get the same number of battles in all 3 categories het

 

This we can agree on. But 5-5-5 alone wont give equal numbers. Also depent on ammount of players per tier. 

So we need +0 teams/games to even that out.


 
 

View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

 

I think u have also cognitive issues... dont get me wrong but what you understand through "balanced" ? Did I asked for good players to play only against good players and bad players to play only against worst players? No not at all.. what I think is that if 1 team has 10 tomatos and 5 good players the other team should have the same... not 15 tomatos vs 10 good players and 5 tomatos... and I don't see how this is punish for good players... if u think this is the only way to be a good player then u are not that good my friend

 

btw if you have better stats that don;t make u a better player...also you are as good as your team... you can't perform in a bad team like on a good team...

 

Serieus question:

Dont you see why this is unfair to good players?

Or

Dont you care this is unfair to good players?

 

If its the last discussion has no use. 

If its the first we have to explain better why it is unfair.


 

LordMuffin #58 Posted 10 July 2018 - 01:17 PM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

 

I don't need a special treatment... even if the teams will be balanced we will have the same MM...I think you have some cognitive issues..

WHY? now, the games are very short... tomatos die very fast and lot of games are with big diff in the score.. and the game enjoyment is less.

Only ppl that have issues with a balanced team is some of the ppl that have big stats... if you are really a good player and not a tomato that hunt stats you should be fine with balanced teams also

We are currently already having the exact same MM.

Some are just better at winning then others.

 

WG could insert an optional league based and/or rating based system, like Dota, lol, SC2, HS, Hots etc.

Where you measure your prowess in a rating instead of the current WR/wn8/PR metrics.

 

View PostKAOS8989, on 10 July 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

 

btw if you have better stats that don;t make u a better player...also you are as good as your team... you can't perform in a bad team like on a good team...

You and I get, on average, the exact same distribution of  good and bad teams sometimes in streaks sometimes not.

 

And yet, I have much better stats then you.

Why?


 

Enforcer1975 #59 Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:12 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 10 July 2018 - 01:52 PM, said:

You and I get, on average, the exact same distribution of  good and bad teams sometimes in streaks sometimes not.

 

And yet, I have much better stats then you.

Why?

 

Because you use mods aka hacks, camp redline and always leave your teammates to die alone on a flank...but mainly because of hacks...it has nothing to do with skill. 



KAOS8989 #60 Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:22 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 10 July 2018 - 01:52 PM, said:

You and I get, on average, the exact same distribution of  good and bad teams sometimes in streaks sometimes not.

 

And yet, I have much better stats then you.

Why?

 

not at all.. it really depends on the hours you play...tanks...also I do not have same experience like you... probably at  47k battles I will have ~same stats...or better :trollface:

Edited by KAOS8989, 10 July 2018 - 02:25 PM.





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