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Winrate and WN8 correlation - and how are the two (not) connected?

win rate wn8

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LordMuffin #41 Posted 20 July 2018 - 06:45 AM

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View PostBora_BOOM, on 17 July 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

 

Nice one. :great:

All I wanted to say (replying to the comment that I am doing something wrong) is that there is plenty to learn but there's gotta be something good and I still need to pinpoint what is that to make it better. It would be "stupid" not to continue and improve it, compared to say switching to something else like camp to pad your wn8 and "fixing" the playstyle that wasn't broken in the first place...

 

Post a replay where you think you could have done better or a replay where you die early or a replay where you find yourself not knowing what to do.

 

I can check tomorrow afternoon sometime. 


Edited by LordMuffin, 20 July 2018 - 06:50 AM.


Tijsbeek993 #42 Posted 22 October 2018 - 06:45 PM

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Sometimes people WN8 is high and winrate sho(i)et.
This means a WN8 guy.
Sometimes Winrate is high and WN8 low.
This means a good persons that helps people.

I am not that good, But I try to get my Winrate high.
I don't care about WN8.. I play mostly lights. So spotting doesn't count and people call me c*nt or id**t because my WN8..

But my winrate isn't that bad! Overall 49.60+- and this 7 days 53% :D

 

Ace42X #43 Posted 23 October 2018 - 07:44 AM

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There seems to be a lot of talk about "how you get your WN8 up" / "win matches" without answering the OP's question - how the two metrics differ.

A quick look at Noobmeter suggests that the ratings use W/L as a base for your rating (and it's why things like spotting don't count, the benefit they generate is assumed to be a part of W/L) with that base *modified* by your *relative* (to other people driving the same tank) performance in each tank, averaged out among all your tanks.

So you'd expect to see a high rating and low win-rate in circumstances where you're using UP tanks and making them work;

and you'd expect to see a high win-rate but low rating in circumstances where you're relying on OP tanks to win matches, but you're not using them to carry as hard as other players are.



SuperOlsson #44 Posted 23 October 2018 - 08:02 AM

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Say what you want about padding and helping the team or not, wn8 is still the rating (except plain wr of course) that correlates best with winratio, and they didn't manage to get wr9 to correlate better with winratio, which is one of the main reasons it was scrapped. Yes, it is not perfect, but it still beats wn7, wn9, personal rating, efficiency etc. at correlating with winratio. And it does so without having access to assisted damage and base experience without premium (which WG doesn't share via their API).

LordMuffin #45 Posted 23 October 2018 - 08:07 AM

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View PostSuperOlsson, on 23 October 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

Say what you want about padding and helping the team or not, wn8 is still the rating (except plain wr of course) that correlates best with winratio, and they didn't manage to get wr9 to correlate better with winratio, which is one of the main reasons it was scrapped. Yes, it is not perfect, but it still beats wn7, wn9, personal rating, efficiency etc. at correlating with winratio. And it does so without having access to assisted damage and base experience without premium (which WG doesn't share via their API).

True skill in this game is shown when you manage to pad both WR and WN8 at the same time. 



Komarovsky1970 #46 Posted 23 October 2018 - 08:12 AM

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Looks like you play a lot of Mediums but you have a high survival rate and low spotting numbers? Are you getting into/influencing the battle early and doing early damage or are you cleaning up in the mid/late stages of the game when there are less HP around to take from the enemy? Conserving your own HP for late game is of course valuable as it allows you to carry but you may miss opportunities to take shots at full HP tanks?

 

(We have similarish stats but I have the opposite problem, I'm too aggressive and need to reign it in sometimes!)


Edited by Komarovsky1970, 23 October 2018 - 08:15 AM.


Bora_BOOM #47 Posted 23 October 2018 - 08:45 AM

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Well, this topic is on again, someone has brought it up after a while. In the meanwhile I had one long bad streak during that period followed by the other half that was really good.

When you add the two up, the result stays the same - WN8 is "lagging" behind.

 

WN8 is the lowest row

 

What happens is that I have 2-3 great games with purple numbers and the next game it drops. Then I have one average game, and then all over again. It fluctuates.

Lately I have noticed that I fall back to defend or completely re-position (more often than before) when the flank is falling, when we are strongly pushed or my team is about to lose. That gives some points to WN8, but I have played lots of LTs and arta due the missions so that diminishes the extra effort.

 

Nothing changed, it is just the way I am playing. No reason to complain tho.


Edited by Bora_BOOM, 23 October 2018 - 08:46 AM.


TankkiPoju #48 Posted 23 October 2018 - 08:47 AM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 23 October 2018 - 08:07 AM, said:

True skill in this game is shown when you manage to pad both WR and WN8 at the same time. 

 

Sure, if you call being actually good in this game "padding". I just call it being good.

Signal11th #49 Posted 23 October 2018 - 11:54 AM

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View PostTijsbeek993, on 22 October 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

Sometimes people WN8 is high and winrate sho(i)et.
This means a WN8 guy.
Sometimes Winrate is high and WN8 low.
This means a good persons that helps people.

I am not that good, But I try to get my Winrate high.
I don't care about WN8.. I play mostly lights. So spotting doesn't count and people call me c*nt or id**t because my WN8..

But my winrate isn't that bad! Overall 49.60+- and this 7 days 53% :D

 

 

I personally don't believe that myself, high winrate and low wn8 usually means other people did the work. You need to have both high in order to be classed as useful to the team. A single stat isn;t going to give you the full picture whereas if all your stats are good then the answer is plainly obvious. I mean how many blues/unicums/supers do you see with high WR and low WN8??

Edited by signal11th, 23 October 2018 - 11:57 AM.


TankkiPoju #50 Posted 23 October 2018 - 12:05 PM

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View PostTijsbeek993, on 22 October 2018 - 06:45 PM, said:

Sometimes Winrate is high and WN8 low.
This means a good persons that helps people.

 

This mean the person platoons a lot, so his platoon mates help him win games. Or he is a seal clubber that plays tanks like T67.

Edited by TankkiPoju, 23 October 2018 - 12:05 PM.


DeadLecter #51 Posted 23 October 2018 - 12:40 PM

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Get better at playing and stats and WN8+WR follow. If you play only for stats you get WN8 but may have bad WR. Play only for WR you will have bad WN8. Get good and you will have both. With that said I must say even though I have very good WN8 I have problems getting good WR since 90% of the time I have horrible team members. This game is really 5 vs 5. With 10 horrible players on each team that do nothing and 99% of those people don't want to get better because it's just a GAME or because they think they are doing it right and we are the problem.

Edited by DeadLecter, 23 October 2018 - 12:57 PM.


Steeleye_Spam #52 Posted 23 October 2018 - 01:35 PM

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View Postsignal11th, on 23 October 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

 

I personally don't believe that myself, high winrate and low wn8 usually means other people did the work. You need to have both high in order to be classed as useful to the team. A single stat isn;t going to give you the full picture whereas if all your stats are good then the answer is plainly obvious. I mean how many blues/unicums/supers do you see with high WR and low WN8??

 

I don't think that follows - if you have a good winrate after 20k battles, its not because other people are doing the work for you, its because you are consistently contributing to a better than average win rate in your battles, which will mean that you are doing damage, but also that you are tactically aware.

 

BTW, this is one of the few forum posts that i've read through because of the consistently thoughtful and interesting responses. Isn't it nice to have an adult conversation about something in WoT for a change?

 

More of this sort of thing!



ThinGun #53 Posted 23 October 2018 - 01:51 PM

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I have a hard time figuring out why the two aren't related.  If you're consistently part of teams that win more than they lose, then ... surely you must be actively contributing to that success by damaging and killing enemies.

I understand that spotting contributes to success and isn't part of WN8 - but also, spotting is only really a major factor for one vehicle category - pretty sure you wouldn't be able to be 'successful' only playing one type of tank.



Cuck0osNest #54 Posted 23 October 2018 - 01:55 PM

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RR ultimate skill evaluation what count everything whats needed exists. And there are still people writing their comments about pay to grow ratings and about winrate which if it is high it is platoon winrate in most cases :facepalm: .

Edited by Cuck0osNest, 23 October 2018 - 01:56 PM.


Signal11th #55 Posted 23 October 2018 - 02:18 PM

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View PostSteeleye_Spam, on 23 October 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

 

I don't think that follows - if you have a good winrate after 20k battles, its not because other people are doing the work for you, its because you are consistently contributing to a better than average win rate in your battles, which will mean that you are doing damage, but also that you are tactically aware.

 

BTW, this is one of the few forum posts that i've read through because of the consistently thoughtful and interesting responses. Isn't it nice to have an adult conversation about something in WoT for a change?

 

More of this sort of thing!

 

Can you actually show me someone who has a high win rate after 20k battles and a much lower wn8? Just because one person might be able to manage it doesn;t mean that's the norm, go onto any "stat site" and you will see it's much more the norm for high WR to have high wn8..

Edited by signal11th, 23 October 2018 - 02:19 PM.


Anthony_1972 #56 Posted 23 October 2018 - 02:23 PM

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Quite obviously, WR is the only metric that matters.   Problem is that due to the random team, it varies enormously.  Anything below 100 games means absolutely nothing.   

 

WN8 is a much less variable measure, as it only depends on you.   So that is more useful to look at with few games.  

 

That said, I don't use WN8, and don't find it a useful metric.  Apparently it still doesn't count spotting?   That is just insane.   On some maps, a single good scout that does proper spotting, (and the rest knowing how to double bush) can make all the difference.  If someone gets enormous amounts of spotting damage, that means he was incredibly useful. Why not count that, and do count direct damage?  That is not the role of lights...

 

Anyway, the actual tactical situation on the battlefield simply cannot be measured by mere metrics.  When someone holds a flank, simply by staying in a strong position, and 4 HT's don't dare to engage, that can be game winning.  Even when no shot was fired.    There is simply no way how to measure that. 

 

Forget WN8, just play to win, and analyze your games.  What is stupid how you got killed?  Do it different next time. 

 

    



Bora_BOOM #57 Posted 23 October 2018 - 03:00 PM

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View PostAnthony_1972, on 23 October 2018 - 01:23 PM, said:

Quite obviously, WR is the only metric that matters.   Problem is that due to the random team, it varies enormously.  Anything below 100 games means absolutely nothing.   

 

WN8 is a much less variable measure, as it only depends on you.   So that is more useful to look at with few games.  

 

That said, I don't use WN8, and don't find it a useful metric.  Apparently it still doesn't count spotting?   That is just insane.   On some maps, a single good scout that does proper spotting, (and the rest knowing how to double bush) can make all the difference.  If someone gets enormous amounts of spotting damage, that means he was incredibly useful. Why not count that, and do count direct damage?  That is not the role of lights...

 

Anyway, the actual tactical situation on the battlefield simply cannot be measured by mere metrics.  When someone holds a flank, simply by staying in a strong position, and 4 HT's don't dare to engage, that can be game winning.  Even when no shot was fired.    There is simply no way how to measure that. 

 

Forget WN8, just play to win, and analyze your games.  What is stupid how you got killed?  Do it different next time. 

 

    

 

I agree that not having spotting dmg into the WN8 calculation is unfortunate. On the other hand 3-Marking does value spotting/assisted dmg. That is strange.

 

I have bought T-100 LT a few days ago, played only 3 games and got 2 wins with an average of 2442 WN8. First two games where purple (around 2k dmg and 3k WN8) and the last game was WN8 abyss. Sad thing is that 3rd "bad WN8" game was the best by far - mission LT-15 for t55A with honors, 9.4k spotted and 700 own dmg. 


Edited by Bora_BOOM, 23 October 2018 - 03:03 PM.


ThinGun #58 Posted 23 October 2018 - 04:05 PM

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View PostAnthony_1972, on 23 October 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

Quite obviously, WR is the only metric that matters.   Problem is that due to the random team, it varies enormously.  Anything below 100 games means absolutely nothing.   

 

WN8 is a much less variable measure, as it only depends on you.   So that is more useful to look at with few games.  

 

That said, I don't use WN8, and don't find it a useful metric.  Apparently it still doesn't count spotting?   That is just insane.   On some maps, a single good scout that does proper spotting, (and the rest knowing how to double bush) can make all the difference.  If someone gets enormous amounts of spotting damage, that means he was incredibly useful. Why not count that, and do count direct damage?  That is not the role of lights...

 

Anyway, the actual tactical situation on the battlefield simply cannot be measured by mere metrics.  When someone holds a flank, simply by staying in a strong position, and 4 HT's don't dare to engage, that can be game winning.  Even when no shot was fired.    There is simply no way how to measure that. 

 

Forget WN8, just play to win, and analyze your games.  What is stupid how you got killed?  Do it different next time. 

 

    

 

Quite obviously, WR is the only metric that matters TO YOU!  Me, I couldn't care less about it.  WR is dependant on factors I cannot control (i.e. the 14 other members of my team).  WN8 is dependant on me alone.



Long_Range_Sniper #59 Posted 23 October 2018 - 04:32 PM

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View PostAnthony_1972, on 23 October 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

Quite obviously, WR is the only metric that matters

 

It is pretty much the only metric that matters when taken in context with tanks played. Medium tanks tend to have higher winrates than arty for example.

 

If you don't really understand your contribution at different tiers and different tanks there is a tendency to think you don't really control what's going on. But those 14 other players who do crazy things in each game get cancelled out over time, and so as everyone else gets the same crazy 14 other players the only constant is YOU. Unless of course you think WG rig those 14 other players to your personally?

 

In which case WR is the only context metric that counts as it takes in everything you do that helps your team win.



ramram70 #60 Posted 24 October 2018 - 09:37 AM

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View PostPansenmann, on 17 July 2018 - 02:14 AM, said:

I try to keep my W/R above 50%

and my K/D ratio above 1:1

 

but I rarely manage to do even that lately...

 

I (as a terrible player) try to keep my session end result WR above my all time, session WN8 above 1000 (anything above my all time is good), K/D above 1 and deal dmg more than take. Some sessions start great but end poorly. The later through the night I play, the worse is the session end result. I usually play about 30 battles per session (Fri and Sat nights only).
 

My performance trend has been going upwards since I stopped yoloing and started playing more serious (which was around 1500-2000 battles played (T3-4) a few years ago) and I think I've found my skill limit which is just above 1000 WN8. I think my best session WN8 has been about 1300 WN8 at the end of a session and I just can't perform any better in the long run. At least with the amount of weekly battles I'm having now. I should play more often to keep the touch. When I start my weekend sessions it's like starting to play after a long pause and I have to get in the rhytm again.

I think I'm a bit too obsessed with the stats. And the game too.


Edited by ramram70, 24 October 2018 - 09:45 AM.






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