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High Explosive guns and why they shouldn't be allowed

HE Japanese heavy tanks derp gun derp frustration unfair point and click

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Mr_Dayne #1 Posted 18 July 2018 - 07:51 AM

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There is something that really bugs me, and everybody capable of reading titles and tags will know what I'm talking about.

 

It's the derp gun; the satisfying idea of dealing damage every time you hit your target, often doing a little damage, sometimes doing half or 90%+ of your own hp in damage. Everybody have probably fought in a derp tank, and everybody have most definitely fought one.

 

Whether we're talking about the M2 medium at tier 3 with its 75 mm howitzer, the BT 7 artillery that most people own, or maybe the fan favourite medium tanks at tier 5, PZ IV H and M4 Sherman. The classic and Ol' reliable with its Russian accuracy, capable of sniping the cupola of a Tiger 2 from 500 meters, the KV 2, or maybe the Godzilla Jr. with armour thicker than tier 7 heavies, the O-I.

Maybe we're talking about the moving bunkers that are the O Ni, O Ho and the Type 4 Heavy, all with a strong HE cannon capable of doing on average 3-500 per shot when hitting the target, and much more when penetrating. The Type 4 Heavy and its Daddy, Type 5 Heavy, are even known to use Navy guns used to destroy damn cruisers and battleships!

OR

Maybe the tier 10 super HE guns used by the Shitbarn and the Deathstar, with premium ammo containing 1750 alpha damage and 230 mm penetration, giving you the possibility of one-shotting anything up to tier 9, if not many tier 10 medium and TD tanks.

 

We've all seen them in action, we've all fought with and against them, but why?

Why are these tanks here?

They have the same characteristics: big potential damage, bad accuracy and aim time, long reload, consistent inconsistency in terms of said damage, but why are they allowed in the game?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love using them. I love hitting the side of an M6 with my KV 2, I love hitting anything with my Cruiser 3, the tier 2 derp monster, and I love killing big tanks in my Deathstar.

 

But I most certainly do not enjoy fighting them. KV-2 is okay, because it only has mediocre armour, the Cruiser 3 is made of paper, and the Deathstar has armour that doesn't really feel like it exists. But my main problem is with the Japanese heavy tanks. It's not that they never existed outside of lucid dreams of Japanese engineers, many tanks in the game start and end like that. (only it's engineers of different nationalities)

It's not that they are slow or have a lot of HP, because heavy tanks are not supposed to be fast, and big HP pools are seen in other tanks with useless armour, like the TOG II and the Tiger.

 

My problem is their armour, and that's about the only other thing they have going for them, besides consistently inconsistent firepower. I had a match today on Erlenberg, the map parted in two by a River known for the many drowning deaths. I like what they did to the split town, giving heavy tanks a proper way to slowly attack from and sidescrape, it's really good. Other aspects of the map can be negotiated.

I'm driving my Tiger II down the middle in a tier 9 game, our top 3 are an Object 257, Jagdtiger and some useless player, and the enemy had a Type 4 Heavy, a T95 and another T54. Immediatly, it looks like going through the middle is a terrible idea, but I was tired of going the long way around, so I just went for it.

 

I see the T95 and Type 4 H have been encountered to the south west, which is good for me, no moving bunkers with derp guns or alpha beasts for me. Fine. I continue the fight, moving slowly since not many enemies have been spotted, and the Tiger II has been massively powercrept lately. Fun fact: the effective hull armour on a Tiger II is 210 mm, give or take. In reality, anything can pierce my front, no matter what.

I continue to move up, and I notice what their tier 8 heavy is: An O Ho. crap, I think, load the gold I guess.

 

And yes, I meet the O Ho, first non gold luckily goes through its "shoulder", and he fires at me. 312 from me versus his 270. Not bad, not bad. Gold loaded, and I go out to hit him again. At this point we are both side scraping, so RoF doesn't mean crap, which is where my first disadvantage lies. Both fire, my gold bounces and his HE shell hits for over 400. Sidescraping, angling, it means nothing. He hits my side, and I take the damage. Kind of like artillery, except I can see the [edited]hiding and snickering behind the wall.

 

We go back and forwards with the attacks, until I have to retreat. I am now on 160 something hp, he's on just below 600, but luckily I pen a final shot before he has to deal with the Jagdtiger that flanked in the open to the west. He dies, I live, good times.

 

Except not. I did a total of 1367 damage that game, and I would have lost 2780 credits with premium account. I don't have that, so I lose nearly 13k instead. All because I had to dip into my credit reserves because Wargaming decided to make a heavy tank the size of a house, give it better armour than most heavies, and then give it a gun that doesn't need to aim to kill you.

 

There is not exactly a noble reason behind this rant/vague question besides asking the potential WG employees that may or may not read this, but: WHY Why did you make a tank line like that??

 

I don't mind derp guns on fast mediums if they're small caliber, I don't mind the derp on the T49 because it's so little damage to deal compared to the 90 mm.

 

But with the Japanese tanks, it's either Derp or sell the tank, because the alternative is so bad. O I gets a good alternative, but the O Ni and O Ho gets a subpar AP gun with bad rate of fire, bad dispersion and bad accuracy. 190 mm ap pen for standard is the worst of tier 8, average at tier 7, and the 215 mm premium pen makes it not worth it. Most other heavies have 250-ish premium pen, some have much more, but 215 is useless.The derp gun is the same from tier 6 to tier 8, and at tier 9??

 

Type 4 Heavy and type 5 Heavy have the same two guns: one 140 mm gun with horrible rate of fire, mediocre accuracy and acceptable aim time for such a big gun. 249 mm pen is alright for a big gun on a heavy tank, that's not the problem. The problem is the 289 mm pen on the premium rounds, for bother tiers! All other heavies have a minimum of 300 premium penetration, but for some reason the Japanese tanks get a horrible 289, and just like the O Ho, the derp gun is the better choice in almost every regard.

 

The derp gun itself get's derp gun accuracy and aim time and reload speed, but with 1100 alpha and 75 mm pen, 400-800 damage on average is much better, and with the armour they have, only premium shells from big TD guns will go through them reliably.

 

To fight WITH a tank like that, you will want to spend ridiculous amounts to use the gold version, since it just adds 300 extra to your alpha, making it 1400 dmg and 75 pen. Sure, you don't always penetrate, but you don't need to when simply hitting your enemy will deal more damage than most 120-130 mm guns.

 

Fighting AGAINST it also requires gold, because unless you have naturally high penetration and the enemy is standing still flat on to you, or you can get around it, there is no way to kill it. Type 4 Heavy has an average of 250+ mm armour, and most tier 9 heavy tanks have 250 mm penetration, meaning that they have a 50/50 on dealing damage. Angle the tank, and it's a no go unless gold is used.

The Type 5 Heavy has around 260-270 mm flat armour meaning that it's even more of a no-no. Again, only gold will work.

 

So why is it that WG want their players to be so frustrated with these annoying super tanks? Do they think that people will pay their way out with premium account? If anything, people will leave the game, or put it on break for a long time.

 

Wargaming could make all their players rejoice and give the game a second chance if they were to remove the Japanese heavy line, or revise it so that their armour wouldn't need gold to shatter, or give them an actual gun instead of an SPG as a weapon.

 

Speaking of SPGs, remove them as well. Every time I and many other people have a good game, artillery is most likely not included.



Captain_Kremen0 #2 Posted 18 July 2018 - 08:09 AM

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[edited]me you like your own voice.

ValkyrionX #3 Posted 18 July 2018 - 08:12 AM

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the only tank with a no sense derp gun is the type 4-5 , buff the first gun penetration to 255mm for standard AP and 315mm for "gold" AP and I will play this tank again

the introduction of the "derp" gun was a big mistake

 

 

 

 



Hedgehog1963 #4 Posted 18 July 2018 - 08:24 AM

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tl;dr

 

If you let people hit you, you might get damaged.



Cobra6 #5 Posted 18 July 2018 - 08:49 AM

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The only DERP guns that are a problem are those on the higher tier Japanese heavies simply because their premium ammo does more damage, it's blatantly Pay-2-Win as you pay more, to do more damage (As to run this premium ammo consistently you either need a premium account of premium tanks).

 

Cobra 6



Graeme0 #6 Posted 18 July 2018 - 09:22 AM

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Premium ammo is bought with credits, it is still free to fire in exactly the same way as regular ammo.

 

It does not depend on tier, ruining a tank with HE at tier 4 is just as much fun as tier 10...

 

Long lve the derp



duijm #7 Posted 18 July 2018 - 09:26 AM

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Maybe dont attack a type frontaly?

Nishi_Kinuyo #8 Posted 18 July 2018 - 10:15 AM

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I agree lowtier derps are ruining the game.

Simeon85 #9 Posted 18 July 2018 - 12:27 PM

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IMO pretty much all the derp guns are problematic and stupid for gameplay.

 

They are quite simply noob cannons. 

 

T49s running around auto-aiming at people doing 300-400 damage to heavily armoured tanks, or occasionally doing 900 plus,not fun or balanced. 

 

The Japanese heavies doing 400-500 to hull down or sidescraping tanks, not fun to play against or balanced.

 

Getting one-bobbed by deathstars and sh*tbarns, not fun to play against or balanced. 

 

The low tier ones one shoting newbies.

 

It goes on and on, broken and unbalanced tanks that need removing/re-working IMO. 


Edited by Simeon85, 18 July 2018 - 12:27 PM.


PervyPastryPuffer #10 Posted 18 July 2018 - 12:51 PM

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You don't see people complaining about Deathstar's HESH :trollface:

 

I fired two shots all game in my Deathstar today... 3748 damage.

 

Balance. :justwait:



THE_JACK_OF_HEARTS #11 Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:21 PM

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TLDR, get a life OP..



Nishi_Kinuyo #12 Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:23 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 18 July 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

IMO pretty much all the derp guns are problematic and stupid for gameplay.

The Japanese heavies doing 400-500 to hull down or sidescraping tanks, not fun to play against or balanced.

The Japanese heavies wouldn't need to use a derp if they actually had viable alternatives; and most of them don't.

That said, hightier hulldown tanks get stupidly strong turret armour where even 350 HEAT has trouble dealing with it, so it actually makes sense to have derps.

I'd like to see how you deal with a hulldown suka kankurwa in  a corridor where you can't flank.

 

At tier 5, all you're doing with a 10.5cm derp is ruining some poor tier 4 tank's game by one-shotting him with basically zero defence against it; a far worse gameplay balance than the hightier derps.



Balc0ra #13 Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:40 PM

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Grind the Type 4 with the AP gun only and get back to me. I suspect you would be willing to see why so many asked for a valid derp on it. 

 

View PostCobra6, on 18 July 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

The only DERP guns that are a problem are those on the higher tier Japanese heavies simply because their premium ammo does more damage, it's blatantly Pay-2-Win as you pay more, to do more damage (As to run this premium ammo consistently you either need a premium account of premium tanks).

 

Cobra 6

 

Considering other derp guns like the SU-152 etc has HEAT or AP gold ammo with more pen, but way less damage. I never did see why this had the gold round it had. If they gave it a gold HE round with 900 to 800 average damage, and more pen. Heck 750 would be enough if it had the pen to trade it off with. It would still give you the 300 to 500 damage rolls vs most targets. But at the same time not enough to one shot tier 8 or 9 meds and lights when you fully pen on a high damage roll. Or to take off 90% of the HP of a HT if he got the rear plate etc. Or faced a 50 100.  

Sirebellus #14 Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:41 PM

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View PostTankyouverymuch2, on 18 July 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

You don't see people complaining about Deathstar's HESH :trollface:

 

I fired two shots all game in my Deathstar today... 3748 damage.

 

 

 

and the other shot missed ? ? ?

NUKLEAR_SLUG #15 Posted 18 July 2018 - 02:54 PM

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View PostMr_Dayne, on 18 July 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

And yes, I meet the O Ho, first non gold luckily goes through its "shoulder", and he fires at me. 312 from me versus his 270. Not bad, not bad. Gold loaded, and I go out to hit him again. At this point we are both side scraping, so RoF doesn't mean crap, which is where my first disadvantage lies. Both fire, my gold bounces and his HE shell hits for over 400. Sidescraping, angling, it means nothing. He hits my side, and I take the damage. Kind of like artillery, except I can see the [edited]hiding and snickering behind the wall.

 

We go back and forwards with the attacks, until I have to retreat. I am now on 160 something hp, he's on just below 600, but luckily I pen a final shot before he has to deal with the Jagdtiger that flanked in the open to the west. He dies, I live, good times.

 

Except not. I did a total of 1367 damage that game, and I would have lost 2780 credits with premium account. I don't have that, so I lose nearly 13k instead. All because I had to dip into my credit reserves because Wargaming decided to make a heavy tank the size of a house, give it better armour than most heavies, and then give it a gun that doesn't need to aim to kill you

 

You've got 225 standard pen which can pretty reliably go through the front plate/miniturret of an Oho anyway and a far better reload. Instead of using that you say you sat there sidescraping and allowing him time to reload and trade shots with you.

 

You should have pushed him and killed him quick. It isn't a gameplay fail that you decided to allow the Oho to dictate the pace of the engagement. Neither is it a gameplay fail that you chose to fire gold when you didn't really need to.



Dava_117 #16 Posted 18 July 2018 - 02:58 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 18 July 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

Grind the Type 4 with the AP gun only and get back to me. I suspect you would be willing to see why so many asked for a valid derp on it. 

 

 

Considering other derp guns like the SU-152 etc has HEAT or AP gold ammo with more pen, but way less damage. I never did see why this had the gold round it had. If they gave it a gold HE round with 900 to 800 average damage, and more pen. Heck 750 would be enough if it had the pen to trade it off with. It would still give you the 300 to 500 damage rolls vs most targets. But at the same time not enough to one shot tier 8 or 9 meds and lights when you fully pen on a high damage roll. Or to take off 90% of the HP of a HT if he got the rear plate etc. Or faced a 50 100.  

 

I don't get the problem of the AP gun. It has more pen than the german tier 10 HT guns, great overmatch capability and the gold round is an AP shell, so more normalization. 282 gold pen is enought to pen every tank in game and 770 HE alpha can still deal good ammount of damage to hulldown tanks if well aimed...

Wintermute_1 #17 Posted 18 July 2018 - 03:31 PM

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The only Derp tank Ive played extensively is the KV2. And although its capable of Mega damage theres a real art to playing it. Namely the constant balancing act of getting near enough to reliably hit the enemy while staying far enough away that you arent eviscerated during your 20s+ reload. Its very difficult to play the KV2 without awareness of what your team mates are doing and attempting to coordinate yourself with them, which is something the game should be promoting imo.

Besides no other Tank's gun gives me the impression of 'Popping' an enemy quite like the KV2 when you hit the enemy in the side.



LordMuffin #18 Posted 18 July 2018 - 03:33 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 18 July 2018 - 01:23 PM, said:

The Japanese heavies wouldn't need to use a derp if they actually had viable alternatives; and most of them don't.

That said, hightier hulldown tanks get stupidly strong turret armour where even 350 HEAT has trouble dealing with it, so it actually makes sense to have derps.

I'd like to see how you deal with a hulldown suka kankurwa in  a corridor where you can't flank.

 

At tier 5, all you're doing with a 10.5cm derp is ruining some poor tier 4 tank's game by one-shotting him with basically zero defence against it; a far worse gameplay balance than the hightier derps.

That turrets are resistant to 350+ pen is a good thing. The issue is that the turrets lack weakspots pennable by regular ammo.

Like E5 and IS-4 turrets. 



Geno1isme #19 Posted 18 July 2018 - 03:39 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 18 July 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

I don't get the problem of the AP gun. It has more pen than the german tier 10 HT guns, great overmatch capability and the gold round is an AP shell, so more normalization. 282 gold pen is enought to pen every tank in game and 770 HE alpha can still deal good ammount of damage to hulldown tanks if well aimed...

 

More pen? Yeah, those 3mm really make a difference. The extra normalization can't compensate the 30-50mm less penetration of the gold rounds, being AP however means that you don't get a advantage in shell velocity from APCR or autobounce angles from HEAT. And 282mm isn't enough to reliably pen everything these days with 0.4 accuracy. Even the good old E100 can bounce that kind of penetration often enough.

Also 770 HE Alpha is rather crappy with such reloads, even 100mm of armor means that you're down to about 250 damage on a direct hit, don't bother with splash. Basically not much better than the HE on the IS-7, Pz7 orWz5A.

 

And the DPM is worst in class basically for both Type 4 and Type 5. Combined with worst in class mobility.

 

Don't get me wrong, you can play the Type 4 with the AP gun (I did for most of the grind), but it has heavy limitations. Wouldn't try it on the Type 5 when you have to deal with Maus and Obj268v4 regulary.

 

Personally I'd just replace the HE of the 14cm gun with the standard HE of the 15cm gun, and remove the latter.



Dava_117 #20 Posted 18 July 2018 - 04:24 PM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 18 July 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

 

More pen? Yeah, those 3mm really make a difference. The extra normalization can't compensate the 30-50mm less penetration of the gold rounds, being AP however means that you don't get a advantage in shell velocity from APCR or autobounce angles from HEAT. And 282mm isn't enough to reliably pen everything these days with 0.4 accuracy. Even the good old E100 can bounce that kind of penetration often enough.

Also 770 HE Alpha is rather crappy with such reloads, even 100mm of armor means that you're down to about 250 damage on a direct hit, don't bother with splash. Basically not much better than the HE on the IS-7, Pz7 orWz5A.

 

And the DPM is worst in class basically for both Type 4 and Type 5. Combined with worst in class mobility.

 

Don't get me wrong, you can play the Type 4 with the AP gun (I did for most of the grind), but it has heavy limitations. Wouldn't try it on the Type 5 when you have to deal with Maus and Obj268v4 regulary.

 

Personally I'd just replace the HE of the 14cm gun with the standard HE of the 15cm gun, and remove the latter.

 

I agree that DPM is quite lame. 17s base reload is quite long, maybe lowering it to 15s and increasing HE alpha from 770 to 850-900. Maybe reduce the accuracy from 0.4 to 0.38 and buff gold pen to 290mm. But that's it IMO.

It's a tall tank, so it can simply punch trought 268v4 UFP with standard AP or shot HE to splash the hull roof armour for around 350HP. All the other tanks have weackspot that can be penned by standard or gold AP, so I don't see the reason to buff the gun further than what I write...






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