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Do you feel camping has increased?

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Poll: Do you feel camping has increased? (107 members have cast votes)

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I feel camping has increased over the last six months.

  1. Yes, it has increased. (59 votes [55.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.14%

  2. No, it's decreased. (5 votes [4.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.67%

  3. No change (43 votes [40.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.19%

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Long_Range_Sniper #21 Posted 18 July 2018 - 11:01 PM

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View PostSuedKAT, on 18 July 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

 

I wouldn't say so, they still seem to do reasonably ok most of the time due to how they function, personally I feel that it's the HT's since many of those have started to camp due to the lack of vision and annoyance of the current state of arty. The main problem though is when those camping HT's finds themselves as  the 3 top tiers in the 3-5-7 MM, they generally fire at some random speedy tank scouting and get obliterated without contributing to the match.

 

I'm starting to see more Bobjects camping though (post-nerf) and I'm thinking of mid tier TD's where you get large alpha for very little effort. The definition of a "noobtube". Maybe they wouldn't be as much, but on these maps with the change in bushes you can camp in your large alpha gun and throw one out simply with your right hand. 

 

View PostBravelyRanAway, on 18 July 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

Looks like I was ahead of my time.:child:

 

You haven't bought the E25 yet though?



BravelyRanAway #22 Posted 18 July 2018 - 11:24 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 18 July 2018 - 10:01 PM, said:

You haven't bought the E25 yet though?

Good grief LRS....I do have standards!



Enforcer1975 #23 Posted 19 July 2018 - 08:17 AM

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The amount of hesitation has increased a lot. Too many base campers because WG makes it easy for them and too many players are too afraid to take a hit yet are willing enough to throw their tank away to get a oneshot...in most cases they die in vain. Many players also see a player get whacked at one spot and still do the same mistake the previous player did or make a 3 vs 1 situation into a 1 vs 1 because they don't support when they have the numbers..rinse and repeat.

KAOS8989 #24 Posted 19 July 2018 - 08:31 AM

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for me are 2 problems that make me camp in light tanks...

1. when my team are tomatos... there is no point in aggressive spoting because they will not shot anything... and you die in few seconds.. (happened for me way to many times)

2. maps are too small and get spoted very fast..so I choose to do passive spot in a bush till there are less tanks in the game and go on 1vs1 on enemy tanks that are far away from their team..



Long_Range_Sniper #25 Posted 19 July 2018 - 10:30 AM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 19 July 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

The amount of hesitation has increased a lot. Too many base campers because WG makes it easy for them and too many players are too afraid to take a hit yet are willing enough to throw their tank away to get a oneshot...in most cases they die in vain. Many players also see a player get whacked at one spot and still do the same mistake the previous player did or make a 3 vs 1 situation into a 1 vs 1 because they don't support when they have the numbers..rinse and repeat.

 

I get this sense of fear from players. You can see it in they way they move. It becomes really stark when they're camping and your team has actually pushed beyond the point where they could be any use but they still won't move.

 

Tundra is a good example. It's fair enough to take up a TD/camping position looking onto the hill from the north or south, but when your team has won the hill why would you still sit there. But they do?



ThinGun #26 Posted 19 July 2018 - 10:42 AM

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A thought occurs.  When people talk about 'camping' are they referring to anyone who hangs back under cover?  To my mind, there are certain classes (arty, slow TDs etc) which are suited to a defensive role - to see them hanging back at spawn is not camping - it's a strategic choice based on their vehicle capabilities.  Seeing heavies or mediums that don't advance ... now THAT is camping.
Seems to me that a lot of people who moan about campers just don't understand that the game isn't about yoloing up the middle and dying in a hail of enemy shells.

To talk about 'cowardice' and 'fear' with reference to a game that doesn't actually involve any physical risk is ... well ... let's just say it requires an extreme level of boundary crossing.

Simeon85 #27 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:05 AM

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Yes I'd say it was a product of several things -

 

1. Average player ability deterioration

 

Either players generally are crapper then they used to be or many more experienced/better players have left the game, but I have found the average standard of play has dropped off a lot. 

 

This IMO leads to a lot of players simply lacking any ability to do anything but camp, especially if they are in vehicles not designed to headbutt the enemy at point blank range which is basically the other thing they can do.

 

I also think boosters that have allowed people to get to tier 10 without learning their way their, poor map design that doesn't teach any lessons, and super forgiving tanks that teach poor habits have also contributed to lessening average player ability.

 

Basically we are in the 'Steve the IS7/Type 5 driver' generation. These players have been given tanks that are forgiving, that require little skill to use and then use these tanks on maps where cross-fire & flanking is basically non-existent. So players don't learn key skills like spotting mechanics, situational awareness, positioning etc.

 

Which is all fine and dandy if they are in a Type 5 on the correct maps. They drive to corridor A or corridor B, they sit there bouncing some stuff with their BS armour that doesn't need angling or positional play, view range is irrelevant because everyone is 50-100m from them and no one is going to flank them or shoot them in their sides because the map design doesn't allow it.

 

But when they are in some other tank, be it soft med, paper TD, light, support heavy etc. that is unable to do this, and they end up with a map that is a little more open, they are clueless, they have not learned the skills needed to be competent in these other vehicles and other maps.

 

So they camp, because it is the only way they can think how to play. 

 

And of course these sorts of players will grind these other tanks, because they are there, because they are shiny, because they have seen unicum youtubers have great games in them. 

 

2. Arty

 

It has always caused camping, 3 arty games on most maps it is basically pointless playing because as soon as you get spotted you get blapped over and over. With their increased splash radius and stun they can ignore more cover and it's less now 'bam' one shot and you are dead, and more you just spend 5-10 minutes slowly dying with a crippled tank. 

 

Which is fun, not. 

 

I myself see a 3 arty game and sigh, and will opt for a more passive/campy playstyle because playing aggressively is stupid and pointless. 

 

3. Map design. 

 

This works two ways. 

 

Firstly many maps are corridor maps where in anything non-armoured it is pointless to venture into the middle of the map because you will be facing heavy tanks and armoured TDs in front on engagements your tank is not suited to. So you are left with little choice but to camp at the back and hope something ventures near you or your heavies win and you can then farm some clean up damage.

 

Secondly, even on many corridor maps, WG has designed the maps to give some of the best positions around the base. These spots are near the redline so are hard to flank, they usually have good bush cover, they usually have hard cover, they are usually raised up so overlook approaches and they usually are approached by open areas. 

 

Take Abbey for example.  Basically 2 long corridors on either side, where you can barely get side shots (some from the abbey), where no spotting is needed because tanks will fight brawls in either side at close range. If you took like a Borsig, or a light tank there you are going to get wrecked you have no armour, low alpha and low hit points, it is pointless trying to go there and fight.

 

So what else is there on Abbey?, well there is the Abbey itself that really just sees little brawls between lights and mediums, gets the odd side shot in if the brawlers on either side are a bit stupid but overall is not a very strong position and very rarely decides the game.

 

Or you camp in base, where you have a raised platform, with bush cover, some hard cover and you can overlook apporaches that are generally across open ground meaning most TDs will get at least 1-2 free shots from here, if not more from people trying to push into them.

 

Of course players are going to camp here.

 

We see these spots on many maps - Airfield is littered with base camping ledges, new Erlenberg has either corner camping spots, Mines has it's base camping ledges, Fjords has the base camping peninsular, Cliff has base camping corner spots the were added with the HD change. Grand battles failed as game mode IMO mainly because of the terrible base camping ledges on the maps that could often see 10 tier 10 TDs camping there overlooking open ground making any attack suicidal. 

 

These spots are consistently seen on maps and consistently are good defensive positions with concealment, hard cover, elevation, overlook most approaches, often overlook the base as well so no capping is possible to draw the campers out and are close o the redline so are very hard to flank. 

 

Again of course players are going to camp.

 

Players are like water generally, if you give them the easiest route, they are going to take it. If you give them OP tanks they will buy them an grind them, if you give them easy mode tanks they will play them and if you give them powerful spots on maps 50m from where they spawn, they will camp in them. 

 

4. HD Bushes.

 

Finally the 1.0 changes seem to have made every piece of concealment act like super camo nets, heavies can hide in these bushes and easily out spot lights. Plus these areas have huge amounts of these bushes meaning whole teams can basically hide in one area or corner of the map, as Erlenberg shows where often 10 plus tanks of the north team can be found camping in the NE corner. 

 



Long_Range_Sniper #28 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:12 AM

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View PostKAOS8989, on 19 July 2018 - 07:31 AM, said:

for me are 2 problems that make me camp in light tanks...

1. when my team are tomatos... there is no point in aggressive spoting because they will not shot anything... and you die in few seconds.. (happened for me way to many times)

2. maps are too small and get spoted very fast..so I choose to do passive spot in a bush till there are less tanks in the game and go on 1vs1 on enemy tanks that are far away from their team..

 

Aggressive spotting in light tanks is one of the more challenging skills to acquire in the game. If you're having to rely on a random player behind you who is parked in their idiot proof TD (or tank playing as a TD) then you're putting a lot on their ability to maximise the opportunities you're creating.

 

On top of this you have enemy TD's and arty who now know the passive spotting bushes and are blind firing them from locations they can fire unspotted.

 

Which is why the camper as all the advantages with the current meta. Good players will find ways around this an expose them so that ultimately they end up as rusting hulks. But if you're an average or poor player then the camper has the deck stacked against you.

 

They don't have to do anything till you make a mistake. If you're an average or poor player then you might not have good crews, or a good view range. You might not even have sixth sense. So when that high alpha TD being driven by a player who can barely find WASD takes you for a lot of damage you might think "if you can't beat them join them".

 

The design of maps, bushes, corridors, and armour/alpha has lead to this and the vote seems to be indicating a few players at least agree. 

 

Ultimately this will be bad for the game, as you will have a playerbase of bad players parking in bushes waiting for other bad players who haven't work out how to defeat them.

 

If bushfapping was a viable tactic then you'd see streamers use it and you don't.



Simeon85 #29 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:23 AM

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Attacking is generally just harder, you have to do something, you have to take the risks etc. 

 

Defending is much easier, you sit back and wait for mistakes.

 

So much like in the offside rule in football, the benefit of the doubt should go to the attacker, then the maps, the gameplay balance, the rewards etc. should be set up to favour attacking and being active rather than being passive and defending.

 

Sadly I do not think this is currently the case and being aggressive and active in game seems to be more heavily punished and the rewards not always worth the risks. 


Edited by Simeon85, 19 July 2018 - 11:23 AM.


ThinGun #30 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:29 AM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 19 July 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

 

Aggressive spotting in light tanks is one of the more challenging skills to acquire in the game. If you're having to rely on a random player behind you who is parked in their idiot proof TD (or tank playing as a TD) then you're putting a lot on their ability to maximise the opportunities you're creating.

 

On top of this you have enemy TD's and arty who now know the passive spotting bushes and are blind firing them from locations they can fire unspotted.

 

Which is why the camper as all the advantages with the current meta. Good players will find ways around this an expose them so that ultimately they end up as rusting hulks. But if you're an average or poor player then the camper has the deck stacked against you.

 

They don't have to do anything till you make a mistake. If you're an average or poor player then you might not have good crews, or a good view range. You might not even have sixth sense. So when that high alpha TD being driven by a player who can barely find WASD takes you for a lot of damage you might think "if you can't beat them join them".

 

The design of maps, bushes, corridors, and armour/alpha has lead to this and the vote seems to be indicating a few players at least agree. 

 

Ultimately this will be bad for the game, as you will have a playerbase of bad players parking in bushes waiting for other bad players who haven't work out how to defeat them.

 

If bushfapping was a viable tactic then you'd see streamers use it and you don't.

 

Ban TDs and arty?  
Seems to me you're just moaning about people who don't play the way you do.  There should be a working relationship between lights and TDs, not a whiney - "i do the scouting and THEY reap the benefits' arrangement.  There is a reaosn why scouting generates reward.

Balc0ra #31 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:34 AM

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Can't say I have in general. Some maps like Province seems to get worse each time I get it. But then again, remember why it was removed in the first place. Overlord seems to be that beach is out, and camping behind the 7 line ridgeline vs pushing zero is the new thing. And on some HD maps it's the same as before, just that the camping spots have moved. Fishermans bay had B2 campers, now it's K2 campers instead. Or middle campers due to the heavy bush line towards town etc. 

 

But on the other hand... I've seen less 2 line camping fails on Cliff with 10 guns. As now south has moved more to the middle or the new TD hill at the back. Tho with 3 guns sitting there vs 10. 



Long_Range_Sniper #32 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:37 AM

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View PostThinGun, on 19 July 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

Ban TDs and arty?  

 

No. Next question?

 

View PostThinGun, on 19 July 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

Seems to me you're just moaning about people who don't play the way you do.  There should be a working relationship between lights and TDs, not a whiney - "i do the scouting and THEY reap the benefits' arrangement.  There is a reaosn why scouting generates reward.

 

 

I guess if you see an analysis of how the meta is developing when considering how that impacts on the whole playerbase and the implications for long term player development as "moaning" I can't help your cup half empty view of the thread.

 

If you'd care to outline the best tactics to spot in light tanks for camping TD's, I'm sure the thread would benefit from that insight into light tank tactics. It might also help move your cup to half full.



Homer_J #33 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:37 AM

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I'm seeing the opposite from my satellite view.

 

Too many impatient heroes who push at the enemy no matter what the odds.

 

When you have arty on your side give them chance to do their job.



Long_Range_Sniper #34 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:48 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 19 July 2018 - 10:37 AM, said:

I'm seeing the opposite from my satellite view.

 

Too many impatient heroes who push at the enemy no matter what the odds.

 

When you have arty on your side give them chance to do their job.

 

You're a good arty player though Homer. Good players will always find a way to maximise bad play either on the enemy team or your own team. While those YOLO heroes die and spot the campers for your benefit it might just increase the desire for those enemy players to camp even more). Wargaming did say that artillery had moved from preventing camping to increasing camping.

 

The YOLO hero in their light tank who dies early then might eventually think "sod that, I'm going to camp".



Balc0ra #35 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:53 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 19 July 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

I'm seeing the opposite from my satellite view.

 

Too many impatient heroes who push at the enemy no matter what the odds.

 

When you have arty on your side give them chance to do their job.

 

Yeah. I would save getting too eager on an "easy kill" and forgetting what you were afraid of 2 min ago that instantly kills them. Or pushing a flank they know has more guns seems to be in style again now. 

Simeon85 #36 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:53 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 19 July 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

I'm seeing the opposite from my satellite view.

 

Too many impatient heroes who push at the enemy no matter what the odds.

 

When you have arty on your side give them chance to do their job.

 

Playing arty doesn't give a very accurate perspective on the state of the game, especially on the challenges players face on the front line.

 

You know the ones actually taking the risk. 

 



Kandlys_Mom #37 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:58 AM

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Map changes have definitely helped. The insane open areas with camping positions all around have made some maps unbearable. Fjords, Fishermans bay, Erlenberg, Glacier, Mines and Province.

 

I still have no clue how to play Fjords, especially from the western spawn. Fishermans bay is basically just one giant fight in the middle and then everyone is afraid to push either of the flanks (to be fair the town is the only one viable) and if there's arty in the game you're going to have a bad time (goes for all of these maps). Erlenberg at least has the middle where some engagements can happen, but flushing out the treelines is a pain in the [edited]regardless. Province is basically a abomination and should have never been included in high tier gameplay. Mines from the south is still a giant pain when the north takes the hill and possibly even rushes the island. 

Most of these maps require an amount of teamwork that is impossible for a group of random people with vastly different skill levels to have. 

 

Now add to the bad map design, high alpha td's (the amount of FV's lately is staggering) and a lot of arty and you'd slowly get the picture why people just don't move. I guess some people enjoy sitting in a useless bush for 5 minutes for their team to die, so they can take one or to shots... then next game they play a completely different class and adopt the same playstyle.

 

Arty especially on these maps makes aggressive play even more hard. Want to peek the hill on mines to maybe push the enemy back and retake the hill? Arty will clobber you. Want to peek the midridge on Glacier? Arty and a billion camping TD's in base. Fishermans bay middle? Arty. Etc.

 

Yet they keep making maps with huge open areas which are completely useless. Fjords middle is useless while it used to not be, Glacier advancing to the base - huge open area, Erlenberg huge open area etc.

 

 

 



Homer_J #38 Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:58 AM

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View PostSimeon85, on 19 July 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

 

Playing arty doesn't give a very accurate perspective on the state of the game, especially on the challenges players face on the front line.

 

You know the ones actually taking the risk. 

 

 

Arty takes a risk every time it fires.

 

The risk that some clown on the green team will yolo into his shot.



Enforcer1975 #39 Posted 19 July 2018 - 12:00 PM

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View PostThinGun, on 19 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

A thought occurs.  When people talk about 'camping' are they referring to anyone who hangs back under cover?  To my mind, there are certain classes (arty, slow TDs etc) which are suited to a defensive role - to see them hanging back at spawn is not camping - it's a strategic choice based on their vehicle capabilities.  Seeing heavies or mediums that don't advance ... now THAT is camping.
Seems to me that a lot of people who moan about campers just don't understand that the game isn't about yoloing up the middle and dying in a hail of enemy shells.

To talk about 'cowardice' and 'fear' with reference to a game that doesn't actually involve any physical risk is ... well ... let's just say it requires an extreme level of boundary crossing.

There is no excuse for being slow. I see enough players trundling their way to the front and support their allies push their flank. I found myself in front of faster tanks regularly in my AT2. Even arty that moves around to get better shots. 



Simeon85 #40 Posted 19 July 2018 - 12:00 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 19 July 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

 

Arty takes a risk every time it fires.

 

The risk that some clown on the green team will yolo into his shot.

 

I was talking actual risk, not imaginary ones. 





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