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IS 4-ST 1 tier switch


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ares354 #1 Posted 18 July 2018 - 06:10 PM

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Like title says, I would like to see those tanks switched for few reason, ST 1 is simple better tank for tier 10, where IS 4 is very underwhelming. 

Short history, many people think ST1 is IS 4 pototype, it simply no true. ST 1 use IS 4 hull, but turret was made by Valentin Asikritovich Ganin. Tank was developed from 1945, where IS 4 was almost finished. I found that info on russian wiki, on english site you cant find much of it at all. Maybe someone who knew more, may say more. 

From game 
perspective;

-In game ST 1 have same armor layout as IS 4, but in HD WG added 10 mm more armor on upper hull of ST1, so hull armor is worse on lower plate of ST 1 but better on upper. 
-Turret of ST 1 is much better, no roof weakspot, -8 degree gun dep!
-Mobility of ST 1 can be better. Tank was to be 56 ton heavy, with 850 HP engine, in game IS 4 gave 750 with 60 tons. 

So how to balance ST 1 on tier X ? 
-Driver view port need to be buffed up to 250 mm
-DPM should be 2,350 base, with 258 mm pen, and 340 heat as it is now in game on that 122 mm gun 
-Gun handling; Aim tim 2.9 sec, acc 0.38. Dispersion 0.19, 0.19, 0.08. 
-HP 2,500 

IS 4 on tier 9
-HP, 1950 
-track removed from lower plate 

-dpm, gun handling as have tier IX ST 1, maybe a bit better, but not by much. 
-mobility as he have now on tier X. 

IMHO that will make this line better, and tier X would be so much more usefull, but not game breaking. Feel free to leave comments, 
Regards. 

 


Edited by ares354, 18 July 2018 - 06:12 PM.


TsundereWaffle #2 Posted 18 July 2018 - 06:22 PM

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Or you know, just buff the IS-4

ares354 #3 Posted 18 July 2018 - 06:24 PM

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View PostTsundereWaffle, on 18 July 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

Or you know, just buff the IS-4

 

Or you know, IS 4 is older then ST 1 and more crap. I dislike idea of adding fake engine or armor to IS 4. 

leggasiini #4 Posted 18 July 2018 - 08:03 PM

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View Postares354, on 18 July 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

 

Or you know, IS 4 is older then ST 1 and more crap. I dislike idea of adding fake engine or armor to IS 4. 

 

To be fair, the IS-4 could be buffed into a viable tier 10 without either of those. The gun is absolutely horrendous on the IS-4 - there is a gigantic amount of room to buff the gun. You could do stuff like upping the DPM to 2400, accuracy to 0.36, aim time to 2.4 secs and buffing the movement bloom significantly to like 0.15 or so. If you wanted, you could buff the gun even further, if the IS-4 is not viable enough. And even then, you got room for buffing the mobility via terrain resistances. Besides, it doesn't matter anymore - WG already has thrown historical accuracy out of window. WG is probably gonna go the stupid route and buff the armor instead of the gun, anyway, so the tank is yet another example of a tank that is unfun to play with and unfun to play against.

 

I am personally indifferent whether the ST-I and IS-4 should swap their positions or not. What WG is probably gonna do is to remove the IS-4, buff it and make it a reward tank, and then slapping ST-II as tier 10. I don't know, though - two guns could be interesting, but for some reason I don't find it too exciting. ST-I could work as tier 10, but I don't think the tier 10 ST-I would be very good with your suggested stats - the issue is that the hull armor is clearly worse than IS-4's. LFP is paper, side is weaker and cheeks are weaker, meaning that the hull is practically completely useless VS premium no matter the angle, while the IS-4 can at least have a chance of getting cheesy bounces. Side armor is also worse. It has better turret and depression, but the gun stats, while better, are not that big of an improvement, and with your stats, the gun still seems very lackluster for a tier 10 HT. The turret is not perfect, either - the cupola is not THAT hard to pen, and at tier 10 it would be easier to pen that it is at tier 9. ST-I would need to have it's hull buffed to same levels as the IS-4 has, if it doesn't get a seriously better gun than the current IS-4.

 

Logically, I'd say the ST-I makes more sense as a tier 10 than the IS-4, as the ST-I is indeed a more advanced design compared to the IS-4, so there is that. IS-4 is visually more appealing, though, so I wouldn't mind if it stayed as a tier 10. 


Edited by leggasiini, 18 July 2018 - 08:04 PM.


MeNoobTank #5 Posted 18 July 2018 - 08:40 PM

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No, I do not agree with OP to swap the tanks. ST-I is awesome in tier 9 as it is right now. As a tier 10 it will lose all the power it has right now, will become one of the worse tier 10 tanks.

 

Although I agree that IS-4 should also not receive non historical buffed armor or engine. I would simply go with what leggasiini said and buff the gun and the terrain resistence which will help alot to the actual maneuverability.



ares354 #6 Posted 18 July 2018 - 09:19 PM

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View PostMeNoobTank, on 18 July 2018 - 08:40 PM, said:

No, I do not agree with OP to swap the tanks. ST-I is awesome in tier 9 as it is right now. As a tier 10 it will lose all the power it has right now, will become one of the worse tier 10 tanks.

 

Although I agree that IS-4 should also not receive non historical buffed armor or engine. I would simply go with what leggasiini said and buff the gun and the terrain resistence which will help alot to the actual maneuverability.

 

Tell me one thing. How tank with a bit worse hull armor and layout(better upper plate 150 mm), better turret, more gun dep, same gun, and better mobility if we buff ground resistance will be worse tier X? That stupid statement.

ST 1 was newer tank then IS 4, so logic say it should be higher then IS 4 in tech tree. 
 

Block Quote

 To be fair, the IS-4 could be buffed into a viable tier 10 without either of those. The gun is absolutely horrendous on the IS-4 - there is a gigantic amount of room to buff the gun. You could do stuff like upping the DPM to 2400, accuracy to 0.36, aim time to 2.4 secs and buffing the movement bloom significantly to like 0.15 or so. If you wanted, you could buff the gun even further, if the IS-4 is not viable enough. And even then, you got room for buffing the mobility via terrain resistances. Besides, it doesn't matter anymore - WG already has thrown historical accuracy out of window. WG is probably gonna go the stupid route and buff the armor instead of the gun, anyway, so the tank is yet another example of a tank that is unfun to play with and unfun to play against.

 

 Problem with what you wrote here is that, ST 1 can have similar change to gun and still will be better tier X because platform is much better fitted to tier X. IS 4 is older then ST 1, so he should be lower in tech tree. 
 

Block Quote

 I am personally indifferent whether the ST-I and IS-4 should swap their positions or not. What WG is probably gonna do is to remove the IS-4, buff it and make it a reward tank, and then slapping ST-II as tier 10. I don't know, though - two guns could be interesting, but for some reason I don't find it too exciting. ST-I could work as tier 10, but I don't think the tier 10 ST-I would be very good with your suggested stats - the issue is that the hull armor is clearly worse than IS-4's. LFP is paper, side is weaker and cheeks are weaker, meaning that the hull is practically completely useless VS premium no matter the angle, while the IS-4 can at least have a chance of getting cheesy bounces. Side armor is also worse. It has better turret and depression, but the gun stats, while better, are not that big of an improvement, and with your stats, the gun still seems very lackluster for a tier 10 HT. The turret is not perfect, either - the cupola is not THAT hard to pen, and at tier 10 it would be easier to pen that it is at tier 9. ST-I would need to have it's hull buffed to same levels as the IS-4 has, if it doesn't get a seriously better gun than the current IS-4.

 

So lfp is paper, WZ 5a too is very paper, that dont make him bad tank. Side and cheeks maybe weaker but so what of it. Front is better, more armor on upper plate, much better turret. Do you understand ST 1 can use -8 degree gun dep, that mean you will hide hull !? Side is worse, front is better in ST 1. 

Do you understand I only show how to increase stat, no make them broken !? My base dpm is better then both IS 7 and 705, only worse then 277 who have no armor. IS 4 upper plate on hull have 140 mm, ST 1 150mm. Turret front of ST 1 lack overmatch, cupola can be buffed. 

You only looking for problem where there is non. 
 

Block Quote

 Logically, I'd say the ST-I makes more sense as a tier 10 than the IS-4, as the ST-I is indeed a more advanced design compared to the IS-4, so there is that. IS-4 is visually more appealing, though, so I wouldn't mind if it stayed as a tier 10. 

 

I dont really care for looks, its personal taste. Main reason you have already wrote. ST 1 is simply more advanced and so he should go up. ST II may be alternative as is WZ 5a to 113. 

Main reason why I vote to change tier is WG. If they buff IS 4 with fake armor or engine, it will downgrade this game ever more in my eyes. ST 1 never goes past paper project, where IS 4 had 250 tank builded. So its better to add fake armor to ST 1 then IS 4 

Edit. If you read here, this is from Russian wiki " source https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/СТ-1

The development of the tank began in 1945, Valentin Asikritovich Ganin, who later became a famous rocket engineer. A graduate of the Moscow State Technical University named after VG Kuznetsov was also involved in the development . NE Baumana Chasovnikov. As a chassis it was planned to use a similar one from the Object 701 (after the completion of the become IS-4 , and the tower was designed by Ganin himself. He believed that the existing heavy tanks have a number of shortcomings, both in the tower and the hull, and to solve them, he proposed a number of innovations. 

In the direction of finalizing the body, Ganin set himself the goal of improving the reliability of the tank equipment (adapt it to use under water), optimize the diameter of the rollers and the location of the track chain. The tower was supposed to be sealed as much as possible (in case the tank would need to cross the water ford), combine the main cannon with two machine guns or small-caliber cannons, optimize the crew's location and increase the tank's ammunition by increasing the pocket in the stern of the tower. In addition, add a gun stabilizer, electro / hydro-drive turret rotation, install an anti-aircraft machine gun, increase the number of hatches to three pieces, as well as a number of significant innovations."

 

Edited by ares354, 18 July 2018 - 09:31 PM.


Zinomov #7 Posted 18 July 2018 - 09:48 PM

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dude the ST-I also called the Object.701-1 is the prototype for the IS-4 so how can you switch them ? (facepalm)

ares354 #8 Posted 18 July 2018 - 09:50 PM

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View PostZinomov, on 18 July 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

dude the ST-I also called the Object.701-1 is the prototype for the IS-4 so how can you switch them ? (facepalm)

 

I ask you on another topic for info, you didint give any. So stop this. Give proof, or stay silent. 

Zinomov #9 Posted 18 July 2018 - 10:00 PM

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The project was developed at Factory No. 92 in 1945. The design featured the Object 701 (IS-4) hull, but different transmission and suspension. The tank turret was developed from scratch. Existed only in blueprints.
from wot wiki : http://wiki.wargamin...n/Tank:R63_ST_I

 

and

 

The first prototype in 1945 was the Object 701-1 (Early IS-4 prototype), followed by the Object 701-2, which both were armed with the 100mm S-34 main Gun (30 rounds) and had a combat weight of 55,900 kg, and a 750 hp diesel engine. Three more prototypes were built, as the Object 701-5, which tried the 122mm D-25T main Gun. They had a combat Weight of 58,500 kg. At the end, the Object 701-6 was produced in 1946 and was given the final 122mm Rifled Gun D-25T (30 rounds). The engine was unchanged, as well as the armor. Power-to-weight ratio was then 12.39 hp/ton. Trials were successful, however, and the Object 701-6 was approved on 29 April 1946 by USSR Council Decree 961403 as the IS-4, and 250 were ordered (perhaps only 219 built) at a unit cost of 1 million 1947 Rubles.


from : http://www.tanks-enc...soviet_IS-4.php

happy now ?



ares354 #10 Posted 18 July 2018 - 10:05 PM

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View PostZinomov, on 18 July 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

The project was developed at Factory No. 92 in 1945. The design featured the Object 701 (IS-4) hull, but different transmission and suspension. The tank turret was developed from scratch. Existed only in blueprints.
from wot wiki : http://wiki.wargamin...n/Tank:R63_ST_I

 

and

 

The first prototype in 1945 was the Object 701-1 (Early IS-4 prototype), followed by the Object 701-2, which both were armed with the 100mm S-34 main Gun (30 rounds) and had a combat weight of 55,900 kg, and a 750 hp diesel engine. Three more prototypes were built, as the Object 701-5, which tried the 122mm D-25T main Gun. They had a combat Weight of 58,500 kg. At the end, the Object 701-6 was produced in 1946 and was given the final 122mm Rifled Gun D-25T (30 rounds). The engine was unchanged, as well as the armor. Power-to-weight ratio was then 12.39 hp/ton. Trials were successful, however, and the Object 701-6 was approved on 29 April 1946 by USSR Council Decree 961403 as the IS-4, and 250 were ordered (perhaps only 219 built) at a unit cost of 1 million 1947 Rubles.


from : http://www.tanks-enc...soviet_IS-4.php

happy now ?

 

Still prove the point that this tank aint IS 4 prototype. This tank only use IS 4 hull and new turret. Never made into prototype stage. So putting him before IS 4 is joke. As was putting long time ago, IS 4 behind IS 7 or T10 before IS 7. 

http://Posted Image

^6 Early Is 4 prototype, with 100 mm gun, and quite early turret 
 

Edited by ares354, 18 July 2018 - 10:10 PM.


TsundereWaffle #11 Posted 19 July 2018 - 09:17 AM

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View Postares354, on 18 July 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

 

Or you know, IS 4 is older then ST 1 and more crap. I dislike idea of adding fake engine or armor to IS 4. 

 

Except the IS-4 doesn’t have historical armor in the game as the tank has already been changed twice I believe, and besides that, balancing > historical accuracy

Edited by TsundereWaffle, 19 July 2018 - 09:19 AM.


Turdminator #12 Posted 19 July 2018 - 09:29 AM

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View Postares354, on 18 July 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

 

Still prove the point that this tank aint IS 4 prototype. This tank only use IS 4 hull and new turret. Never made into prototype stage. So putting him before IS 4 is joke. As was putting long time ago, IS 4 behind IS 7 or T10 before IS 7. 

http://Posted Image

^6 Early Is 4 prototype, with 100 mm gun, and quite early turret 
 

 

 

That photo you just provided looks a lot like an stock ST-1 btw



Dava_117 #13 Posted 19 July 2018 - 09:39 AM

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View PostTurdminator, on 19 July 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

 

 

That photo you just provided looks a lot like an stock ST-1 btw

 

Yep, because ST-I stock turret is an early IS-4 turret.

Sfinski #14 Posted 19 July 2018 - 10:11 AM

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When the tank was made historically has no value on what tier it is. If it had, Maus should be at t6 or so. 

ares354 #15 Posted 19 July 2018 - 03:58 PM

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View PostTsundereWaffle, on 19 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

 

Except the IS-4 doesn’t have historical armor in the game as the tank has already been changed twice I believe, and besides that, balancing > historical accuracy



Hull upper plate and lower plate are very historical, so its front thickness of turret front. Side armor is historical as well, only what is buffed from historical IS 4 is front part of IS 4 turret side, one zone have 230mm, rest 200mm. 

 

Block Quote

 That photo you just provided looks a lot like an stock ST-1 btw

 

 And ? Person who designed ST 1 never made that turret or hull. That whole point. 

 

Block Quote

 When the tank was made historically has no value on what tier it is. If it had, Maus should be at t6 or so.  

 

I dont care about only year when tank was produced. Its about logic, ST 1 is simply better platform then IS 4. Plus, Maus should be higher or lower then his prototype ? 

ST1 is not IS 4 prototype, so his place in line it there because WG dont have any other candidate.



Cobra6 #16 Posted 19 July 2018 - 04:17 PM

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Just buff the IS-4 gun handling which would instantly make the turd a *LOT* better.

 

Cobra 6



Sfinski #17 Posted 19 July 2018 - 04:19 PM

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View Postares354, on 19 July 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

I dont care about only year when tank was produced. Its about logic, ST 1 is simply better platform then IS 4. Plus, Maus should be higher or lower then his prototype ? 

ST1 is not IS 4 prototype, so his place in line it there because WG dont have any other candidate.

 

Word is than. 

 

Dont care when tank were produced, nor do I care if it were prototype or not. It's how they perform. Strv 103 came before Udes 03 fe. Strv fits at the top better cause it performs better. 

 

You can buff IS-4 plenty to make it better platform. 



ares354 #18 Posted 19 July 2018 - 05:02 PM

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Block Quote

 

Just buff the IS-4 gun handling which would instantly make the turd a *LOT* better.

 

Cobra 6

 
It not only gun handlign that suck in IS 4, gun dep, mobility, armor. You cant buff gun dep, that make sense. Historical this tank was crap just like Tortoise. 

 

Block Quote

 

Word is than. 

 

Dont care when tank were produced, nor do I care if it were prototype or not. It's how they perform. Strv 103 came before Udes 03 fe. Strv fits at the top better cause it performs better. 

 

You can buff IS-4 plenty to make it better platform. 

 

You cant buff IS 4 without fake engine and fake armor. I dont want that. -8 degree gun dep on IS 4 is physically not possible, on ST 1 is very possible. 

ST1 in plans over IS 4 had 100 more HP egine, next good reason why he should be tier X. No need to add fake engine to make IS 4 more mobile. 

ST1 is just like STRV branch, better platform then IS 4. Much better. 


Edited by ares354, 19 July 2018 - 05:04 PM.


panzer_war #19 Posted 05 August 2018 - 03:55 PM

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i grinded the line because i liked the IS-4, unfortunately it's garbage, i'd rather get it buffed than switched to a lower tier, if they decided to replace it, i'd like anyway to keep it as a special tank, IS-4 is for pros, not for monkey type-5  players

Bennie182 #20 Posted 05 August 2018 - 04:09 PM

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NO WAY! I sticked on the ST-1 for a reason. I don't want a tier 10 from that line!

IS-4 needs a buff, that's all. remove lame turret roof weakspot.


Edited by Bennie182, 05 August 2018 - 04:16 PM.





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