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Hybrid Tank Destroyers/Self-Propelled Guns

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Poll: Hybrid Tank Destroyers/SPGs (28 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

Hybrid Tank Destroyers/SPGs (as explained below)?

  1. Yes, as a general rule for all vehicles with the mechanic (9 votes [32.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.14%

  2. Yes, but all such vehicles must have low average damage (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Yes, but with something else (2 votes [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  4. No, too complicated (2 votes [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  5. No: play either Tank Destroyers or Self-Propelled Guns instead (14 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  6. Hard to say (1 vote [3.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.57%

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WindSplitter1 #1 Posted 20 July 2018 - 10:17 PM

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I've made a post about this before, as an early speculation of the Italian tank mechanic, so please don't kill me, Jigabachi.

 

In NA Forums, people believed it to be Tank Destroyers that could also fire in an indirect firing mode apart from the tradition Line Of Sight engagement.

 

One vehicle is known to operate like this, the Semovente da 90/53:

https://en.wikipedia...ovente_da_90/53

http://www.tanks-enc...te_Da_90-53.php

 

The base mechanics would be similar to the following in use:

 

 

When AP/APCR/HEAT is loaded:

  • Direct fire only. Switching to HE will make the gun switch mode.
  • Traditional Tank Destroyer camo rating
  • Traditional LOS aiming time, reload and dispersion
  • Traditional maximum range of 720m (all "normal" guns can shoot this far, but they'll despawn beyond that).
  • Assault Gun levels of View Range

 

 

When HE is loaded:

  • Indirect fire only. Switching to piercing rounds will make the gun switch mode.
  • Traditional SPG camo rating (gun pointing up; siege mode)
  • Traditional SPG aiming time, reload and dispersion (read: poor)
  • Maximum shooting range of 445m*
  • Below average HE pen**
  • View Range is decreased by 2/3 and/or exchanged for Radio Range***

 

*Limiting shooting range to prevent it attacking foes farther than the commander can see, regardless of who is spotted (better risk/reward)

 

**Such a short firing radius is gonna make the gun have a high shell arc. To prevent it from being autopen when hitting engine decks or turret/hull roofs, the pen must be lowered below the level of thickness of the least armoured vehicle on its tier, that has an active role in the fight (I.E. a Heavy Tank).

 

***Denying of the vehicle from self-defence abilities when benefiting from indirect fire

 

These last 3 points are to address the current issues reported by players fighting against SPGs and make them less of a nuisance in those regards but allowing more diversification in gameplay.

 

Discuss

 

I initially wanted to make a poll only topic because we aren't supposed to include SPGs in the main but I really wanna know what you guys think about it (once more). :)


Edited by WindSplitter1, 20 July 2018 - 10:32 PM.


4nt #2 Posted 20 July 2018 - 11:15 PM

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No plz

kaneloon #3 Posted 20 July 2018 - 11:26 PM

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My KV-2 already have that feature : no need to have a clear line of sight of the target :)

vixu #4 Posted 20 July 2018 - 11:45 PM

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actually, I was making similar proposal in the wake of 9.18 changes.

However,counter arguments are always the same. Many players oppose the mere possibility of the indirect fire.

Dava_117 #5 Posted 21 July 2018 - 12:05 AM

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View PostWindSplitter1, on 20 July 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

I've made a post about this before, as an early speculation of the Italian tank mechanic, so please don't kill me, Jigabachi.

 

In NA Forums, people believed it to be Tank Destroyers that could also fire in an indirect firing mode apart from the tradition Line Of Sight engagement.

 

One vehicle is known to operate like this, the Semovente da 90/53:

https://en.wikipedia...ovente_da_90/53

http://www.tanks-enc...te_Da_90-53.php

 

The base mechanics would be similar to the following in use:

 

 

When AP/APCR/HEAT is loaded:

  • Direct fire only. Switching to HE will make the gun switch mode.
  • Traditional Tank Destroyer camo rating
  • Traditional LOS aiming time, reload and dispersion
  • Traditional maximum range of 720m (all "normal" guns can shoot this far, but they'll despawn beyond that).
  • Assault Gun levels of View Range

 

 

When HE is loaded:

  • Indirect fire only. Switching to piercing rounds will make the gun switch mode.
  • Traditional SPG camo rating (gun pointing up; siege mode)
  • Traditional SPG aiming time, reload and dispersion (read: poor)
  • Maximum shooting range of 445m*
  • Below average HE pen**
  • View Range is decreased by 2/3 and/or exchanged for Radio Range***

 

*Limiting shooting range to prevent it attacking foes farther than the commander can see, regardless of who is spotted (better risk/reward)

 

**Such a short firing radius is gonna make the gun have a high shell arc. To prevent it from being autopen when hitting engine decks or turret/hull roofs, the pen must be lowered below the level of thickness of the least armoured vehicle on its tier, that has an active role in the fight (I.E. a Heavy Tank).

 

***Denying of the vehicle from self-defence abilities when benefiting from indirect fire

 

These last 3 points are to address the current issues reported by players fighting against SPGs and make them less of a nuisance in those regards but allowing more diversification in gameplay.

 

Discuss

 

I initially wanted to make a poll only topic because we aren't supposed to include SPGs in the main but I really wanna know what you guys think about it (once more). :)

 

I don't think the low pen is needed. In the Semovente90/53 example, an avarage 90mm gun HE has around 320 alpha. If the tank is aa tier 7-8, that is basically an avarage damage for TDs. Plus it has to actually hit the target engine deck to have some chance of dealing full damage.

 

Nice idea by the way. Can be intresting. :)



fwhaatpiraat #6 Posted 21 July 2018 - 12:48 AM

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Does the gravity (for shells) also switch?

vcristi #7 Posted 21 July 2018 - 01:10 AM

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Sooo, you load HE and you shoot on a high arc - BUT when you load AP and shoot the exactly same gun, the physics magically change and you shoot straight....

Have you ever attended a physics class in your life?

 



fwhaatpiraat #8 Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:38 AM

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View Postvcristi, on 21 July 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

Sooo, you load HE and you shoot on a high arc - BUT when you load AP and shoot the exactly same gun, the physics magically change and you shoot straight....

Have you ever attended a physics class in your life?

 

 

You know that gravity values for arty shells are like 15 times bigger than for regular shells in this game?

_Anarchistic_ #9 Posted 21 July 2018 - 08:07 AM

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considering most American tds in WW2 fired vastly more shells in indirect fire mode than direct fire might be an idea, and probably one that will further ruin the game with essentially 10 per team arty so expect WG to take it up and add more nails in their coffins

250swb #10 Posted 21 July 2018 - 08:16 AM

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Things such as gun depression and elevation are already modeled around the actual space inside the turret that the gun breach has to move in. Yes true, even though this isn't a realistic game some consideration is given to tank design. So given this the question is 'where is the gun breach of a TD going to go to for allow gun elevation and recoil', are they going to have to cut a hole in the floor? Available gun elevation also affects the range of the shell. This combined TD/SPG thing is just about the most stupid idea I've read this week.

 

In actual life TD's could shoot over hills with a spotter to direct fire, but then so could other tanks as well, but only within their mechanical limits, not drop shells over high obstacles. 


Edited by 250swb, 21 July 2018 - 08:23 AM.


jack_timber #11 Posted 21 July 2018 - 08:19 AM

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Hybrid tanks why not. 

Hybrid cars a very popular now....



lgfrbcsgo #12 Posted 21 July 2018 - 08:35 AM

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View Postvcristi, on 21 July 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

Sooo, you load HE and you shoot on a high arc - BUT when you load AP and shoot the exactly same gun, the physics magically change and you shoot straight....

Have you ever attended a physics class in your life?

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong. From what I've read on Wikipedia, the height and range of the projectile depends entirely on its initial velocity and angle but not its mass. So a projectile fired at a lower speed but higher angle would allow for indirect fire, i.e., reducing the amount of explosives and aiming the gun higher up.

https://en.m.wikiped...ojectile_motion

 



PointZero #13 Posted 21 July 2018 - 08:39 AM

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Think of the children! gameplay, to put it really bluntly one could argue the only skill needed to play glass cannon TD's is to know where to lay in wait and when to relocate to be able to keep the gun firing. Add the ability to fire indirectly and players become even more glued to the same bush they always use, now with the added benefit of not needing to move as they can just lob shells over the hills in SPG mode.

 

The idea is on par with giving SPG's in Frontlines the ability to spot for themselves, then stun and track the target and spam them with the strafing run & arty strike consumable from behind if they manage to find hard cover.



Dorander #14 Posted 21 July 2018 - 08:56 AM

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I like the idea conceptually, but I don't think it's a good idea to introduce into World of Tanks at this point.

 

It seems needlessly complicated, potentially overpowered resulting in balance issues (would need to be weak to compensate for flexibility). The suggested "SPG mode" tweaks are arbitrary and don't really solve anything, and you seem to want variable penetration values which both does not make any sense and increases the slot-machine feeling of SPG mechanics.



vcristi #15 Posted 21 July 2018 - 09:21 AM

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View Postfwhaatpiraat, on 21 July 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

 

You know that gravity values for arty shells are like 15 times bigger than for regular shells in this game?

 

Heh, i was really thinking why arty shells fall so fast in this game that you can lob them over a rock at 500m. This explains it.

So basically arty that was shooting in real life at kilometers away functions in this game as a mortar, so much 'realism'...:amazed:



vcristi #16 Posted 21 July 2018 - 09:47 AM

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View Postlgfrbcsgo, on 21 July 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

 

Correct me if I am wrong. From what I've read on Wikipedia, the height and range of the projectile depends entirely on its initial velocity and angle but not its mass. So a projectile fired at a lower speed but higher angle would allow for indirect fire, i.e., reducing the amount of explosives and aiming the gun higher up.

https://en.m.wikiped...ojectile_motion

 

 

You are right.

To make a shell going in a pronounced arc, that shell must be fired at a big angle and have a very low initial speed. In fact all arty in this game is very bad represented, they should have a very small arc at the distances 500-1000m, and they should be able to shoot over obstacles just at very long range - something around some kilometers. 

Arty in WOT is having mortar physics.

Mortars have very low initial velocity, the shells can get extra propeller charge (those rings on the tail) depending of the range/arc you need to shot them - BUT mortars can not do direct line of sight fire, like arty does in this game.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Mortar_(weapon)

 

 

Look at the ranges of shells on some mortar and the initial velocity required:

Data for 81mm L16 mortar [18]
Charge Muzzle Velocity Range
Primary 73 m/s 180–520m
Charge 1 110 m/s 390–1,120m
Charge 2 137 m/s 580–1,710m
Charge 3 162 m/s 780–2,265m
Charge 4 195 m/s 1,070–3,080m
Charge 5 224 m/s 1,340–3,850m
Charge 6 250 m/s 1,700–4,680m

 

So for 500-1000 m range (the size of WOT maps) the initial speed of shell should be 100-150 m/s.

And the arty in WOT have a much higher shell velocity but for some reason (increased gravity value for arty shells) they can get a mortar-like trajectory:

Obj.261: 510 m/s

Bat-Chat 155: 490 m/s

T92: 460 m/s

GW.E100: 435 m/s

Conq GC: 395 m/s

 

The closest to reality in Conq.GC, and even that arty has triple speed of the shell compared to what it would be needed in reality.

 

Now i am thinking why WG is not implementing those 100-150 m/s shell speed for arty? Maybe because they would not be capable of hitting lights going at 60 km/h?

But they said that arty is for digging out campers from their hull-down positions....:sceptic:

 


Edited by vcristi, 21 July 2018 - 09:48 AM.


SlyMeerkat #17 Posted 21 July 2018 - 09:50 AM

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That does sound like an interesting idea, im up for that

Sfinski #18 Posted 21 July 2018 - 09:54 AM

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Leave out indirect fire and I'm all game. 

Jamadeus #19 Posted 21 July 2018 - 09:58 AM

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I pretty much agree with Dorander. I like the idea and I like to see new tanks and mechanics in the game but I am not sure about Balance and SPG issues. Edit - Actually I would like to see it but I can't see it being accepted by the community (arty haters)

Thanks  OP - it's also cool to read about historical/real life stuff and how it could be incorporated into the game.



lgfrbcsgo #20 Posted 21 July 2018 - 10:02 AM

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Thanks for the clarification, I see now.

 

View Postfwhaatpiraat, on 21 July 2018 - 07:38 AM, said:

You know that gravity values for arty shells are like 15 times bigger than for regular shells in this game?

 

The maximum range is velocity^2 / gravity.

The FV304 is has a maximum range of roughly 550m and a shell velocity of 270m/s.

This would mean the gravity is roughly 132m/s^2 or 15 times the gravity on earth.

 

Now, can we proof that this is only valid for artillery shells and not all shells?







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