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HEAT Mechanics


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WindSplitter1 #1 Posted 21 July 2018 - 03:55 PM

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A few moons ago, I was hit on the side by an SU-101's HEAT shell, against the screens of my T-44-100.

 

Sure enough, HEAT is poor vs spaced armour.

 

Since the match was pretty much won, I took some time to inspect where the shell landed. The big splatter seemed to have hit the skirt on the toolbox level (the crap to decorate the tank) but it actually at the hull level after a closer look.

 

In another situation, a HEAT spamming TVP had its entire clip gone to waste against a Cherrydan. 360º of spaced hull armour so no surprises there.

 

With that said, my question is, is there an "overmatch" mechanic for HEAT? I know spaced armour doesn't equate to auto defeat of HEAT shells, but is there a way to calculate its chances of getting through?



profes79 #2 Posted 21 July 2018 - 04:04 PM

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There is no overmatch for HEAT ammo - only for AP and APCR. There is no normalization either.

http://wiki.wargamin...ation_Mechanics



Balc0ra #3 Posted 21 July 2018 - 04:08 PM

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It's related to distance more so then caliber etc. As the 3 caliber rule don't apply to heat, nor does it normalize. As in once it hits the skirt etc. It will lose 5% of it's penetration for each 10 cm it travels. So the bigger the gap on the spaced armor, the less chance it has to pen. Thus why it's usually useless on side skirts or tracks etc. As the gap between skirts and the side armor is fairly long. Or why high impact angles is not ideal for it. As then it's beam has more distance to travel after impact if you will. 

 

Edit: Number typo 


Edited by Balc0ra, 21 July 2018 - 05:10 PM.


CircleOfSorrow #4 Posted 21 July 2018 - 04:08 PM

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HEAT is a dark magic for me because I am too lazy to find and read about the actual game mechanics governing the ammo type.  What I do know is that there is a QB video that I saw once in which he advised that players could defeat Swiss cheese TDs with HEAT.  Sure enough, I have penned every cheese wedge I've shot HEAT at.  After this discovery I started shooting HEAT at difficult to pen tanks, and it would seem to me that HEAT is a better ammo than AP in a lot of cases, and I'm not sure about whether it gets overmatch ability or not, and I'm pretty sure it has much worse normalisation than AP, but I seem to pen a lot of angled E100 turret faces with it, so it gets another tick in my checklist of dark magic evidence.  Oh, and I'm too lazy to find the QB video for you as well.  Super helpful, am I not?

XxKuzkina_MatxX #5 Posted 21 July 2018 - 04:20 PM

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HEAT is a variant of HE, there is no over match nor loss of penetration over distance. Which is kind of logical since it's a chemical energy round.

Dava_117 #6 Posted 21 July 2018 - 04:46 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 21 July 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

It's related to distance more so then caliber etc. As the 3 caliber rule don't apply to heat, nor does it normalize. As in once it hits the skirt etc. It will lose 5% of it's penetration for each 5cm it travels. So the bigger the gap on the spaced armor, the less chance it has to pen. Thus why it's usually useless on side skirts or tracks etc. As the gap between skirts and the side armor is fairly long. Or why high impact angles is not ideal for it. As then it's beam has more distance to travel after impact if you will. 

 

So is a fixed percentage? That means a Blackdog HEAT and a JPzE100 shell can all be stopped by 1m of spaced armour! I would have imagined some kind of relation with caliber or a fixed number (like 10mm pen every 10cm)...

Balc0ra #7 Posted 21 July 2018 - 05:07 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 21 July 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

 

So is a fixed percentage? That means a Blackdog HEAT and a JPzE100 shell can all be stopped by 1m of spaced armour! I would have imagined some kind of relation with caliber or a fixed number (like 10mm pen every 10cm)…

 

Well I had a typo above. It's 5% for each 10 cm, not 5. But they explain it better in the video. 

 


Edited by Balc0ra, 21 July 2018 - 05:10 PM.


Homer_J #8 Posted 21 July 2018 - 05:10 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 21 July 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

 

So is a fixed percentage? That means a Blackdog HEAT and a JPzE100 shell can all be stopped by 1m of spaced armour! I would have imagined some kind of relation with caliber or a fixed number (like 10mm pen every 10cm)...

 

Yep, any armour will stop a HEAT shell regardless but then it projects a penetrating beam which loses penetration over distance.  It also loses penetration for whatever thickness of spaced armour it meets.

 

If the total penetration is enough to overcome spaced armour + space + hull armour then you get a penetrating hit for the full RNG roll of damage.



Dava_117 #9 Posted 21 July 2018 - 05:33 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 21 July 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

 

Well I had a typo above. It's 5% for each 10 cm, not 5. But they explain it better in the video. 

 

 

View PostHomer_J, on 21 July 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

 

Yep, any armour will stop a HEAT shell regardless but then it projects a penetrating beam which loses penetration over distance.  It also loses penetration for whatever thickness of spaced armour it meets.

 

If the total penetration is enough to overcome spaced armour + space + hull armour then you get a penetrating hit for the full RNG roll of damage.

 

Thank you both. I know the HEAT mechanics but I can't really remember the pen loss formula... maybe because I prefere kinetic penetrator over chemical one! :)

NUKLEAR_SLUG #10 Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:10 PM

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View PostCircleOfSorrow, on 21 July 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

HEAT is a dark magic for me because I am too lazy to find and read about the actual game mechanics governing the ammo type. What I do know is that there is a QB video that I saw once in which he advised that players could defeat Swiss cheese TDs with HEAT. Sure enough, I have penned every cheese wedge I've shot HEAT at. After this discovery I started shooting HEAT at difficult to pen tanks, and it would seem to me that HEAT is a better ammo than AP in a lot of cases, and I'm not sure about whether it gets overmatch ability or not, and I'm pretty sure it has much worse normalisation than AP, but I seem to pen a lot of angled E100 turret faces with it, so it gets another tick in my checklist of dark magic evidence. Oh, and I'm too lazy to find the QB video for you as well. Super helpful, am I not?

 

HEAT gets no normalisation so in theory is worse than AP but the penetration is so high on HEAT vs AP it often just penetrates anyway even on steeply angled plates which is why it works on the wedges so well.



Tankyouverymuch2 #11 Posted 21 July 2018 - 10:31 PM

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When I penned a T26E4 SP through the front hull with my WZ-111's HEAT shell I could not believe it... Spaced armor meant I was never gonna pen, right? (I actually ran out of AP at the time) But then it got me thinking, what the hell happened there?

 

Well I just checked the armor model of the SP and since I was facehugging it and aiming down into the hull, I actually had a fair 50% chance to pen him. Tanks.gg says the HEAT shell needs to penetrate roughly 250mm of the SP's spaced armor in that area. But if I angle its hull at 45° there's a 600mm armor reading :D but only 280mm with AP at the same angle.

 

Flat spaced armor can be penned, but as soon as there's any major angle, give up. HEAT loves flat armor.

 

HEAT can never fully overmatch though, but it has the shallowest penetrating impact angle of any other shell -> 5°, while AP and APCR will bounce at any angle lower than 25° and 22° respectively. AP and APCR can overmatch at any angle, even lower than 1°.

 

HEAT takes the armor's raw thickness into account before its angle. It'll pen the tier 7 Scorpion's 1mm armor anytime, but not for example 40mm armor on other tanks, because the thickness at an angle is far greater with 40mm armor than 1mm armor. Hope that's cleared.



Dorander #12 Posted 21 July 2018 - 11:36 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 21 July 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

 

 maybe because I prefere kinetic penetrator over chemical one! :)

 

That's what she said!

 

 

More seriously though, all I know about HEAT is that it's the bane of my Maus... Germans can't stand the HEAT :-(.

 

View PostHomer_J, on 21 July 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

 

Yep, any armour will stop a HEAT shell regardless but then it projects a penetrating beam which loses penetration over distance.  It also loses penetration for whatever thickness of spaced armour it meets.

 

If the total penetration is enough to overcome spaced armour + space + hull armour then you get a penetrating hit for the full RNG roll of damage.

 

I assume this beam's vector is in the same direction (angle) as the shot was at the moment of impact?

Homer_J #13 Posted 22 July 2018 - 07:15 AM

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View PostDorander, on 21 July 2018 - 11:36 PM, said:

 

I assume this beam's vector is in the same direction (angle) as the shot was at the moment of impact?

 

Yes.






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