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Why so many low tier games?


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Geoffrey_Ironfist #1 Posted 08 August 2018 - 10:04 AM

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I have a feeling that at least 9 out of 10 of my games are low tier games, i.e. I am in the lowest tier. Why is this so? Too many new players? When does this trend reverse? Surely you cannot be in the bottom tier so often when you are playing at tiers VIII-X.

Nethraniel #2 Posted 08 August 2018 - 10:09 AM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 08 August 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

I have a feeling that at least 9 out of 10 of my games are low tier games, i.e. I am in the lowest tier. Why is this so? Too many new players? When does this trend reverse? Surely you cannot be in the bottom tier so often when you are playing at tiers VIII-X.

 

Did you, by chance, read any of the most often posted discussions all over the forum? Since WG introduced the template system for MM and weighted the 3/5/7 template as the predominant one, followed by the 5/10, it is much more likely to end up bottom tier. This effect seems to be the strongest at the moment for T8 tanks, while T9 tanks are more or less balanced.

So, to get out of this bottom tier part, you need to play T10... there you cannot be bottom tier. However, playing T10 is expensive (credit wise) and if you cannot carry, being top tier, you will lose even more.



Geoffrey_Ironfist #3 Posted 08 August 2018 - 10:42 AM

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I haven't gone past tier V yet and I am not really interested in Star Wars tanks, at least at present. A top tier game in tier V tanks is a very rare thing indeed. Fighting higher tier tanks so often can be quite frustrating at times, especially in a sluggish and undergunned "heavy" bottom tier tank.

 

But how does this work? Let's say the 5-10 template was chosen all the time. For this to work there would have to be about twice as many players playing at every lower tier, i.e. if 100 play at tier V, then 200 at tier IV and 400 at tier III. Conversely, 50 at tier VI, 25 at tier VII, 12 at tier VIII, 6 at IX and 3 at X. So 1 out of a few hundred players gets to regularly play against players of the same skill and similar tanks?

 

And just based on these templates, one should be maybe in the highest tier in 1 out of three to five games, but that is not my experience.


Edited by Geoffrey_Ironfist, 08 August 2018 - 10:57 AM.


Dr_ownape #4 Posted 08 August 2018 - 11:07 AM

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in 3, 5, 7 MM (most common) for 3 tanks to be top tier then clearly 7 have to be bottom tier. Then add those tanks that can't be in a 3 tier MM and those in platoons and it means you can expect to be bottom tier at least 50% of the time. I recently played the Tier 8 AMX 65T (only a few games) but had the following MM:

Saw tier 6 in 1 game

Tier 7 in 2 games

All tier 8 battles 4 times

Tier 9 as 8/9 6

Tier 10 in 11 games


 



Cheezix #5 Posted 08 August 2018 - 11:41 AM

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While many players hate the current MM system, to me it makes some kind of sense. The most played tiers are still tier 5 and 6, because you can usually make a profit there without buying premium account (if you are an average skilled player). Tier 8 is also played a lot since tier 8 premiums give the most credits in the game. So obviously there will be more tier 5, 6 and 8 players around to fill tier 7,8,9 and tier 10 battles. People always want to be top tier and dominate lower tiers, but that's usually because they don't have enough knowledge and skill to defeat higher tier tanks. While, if you did your homework and learned the game, tactics, weakspots, etc. it is extremely satisfying to outplay higher tier tanks!

 

TBH I don't mind being bottom tier in tier 5 or 6. I just play more careful and play tanks that I enjoy and fit my play style. Usually I avoid slow tanks, because all they have is armor which means nothing as a bottom tier tank. You're just an easy prey for higher tier tanks.

 

Hope this helps!

 

(Btw, hi Drownape! I recognized your avatar so went to check out this topic) ;)



Trostani #6 Posted 08 August 2018 - 11:55 AM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 08 August 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

I haven't gone past tier V yet and I am not really interested in Star Wars tanks, at least at present. A top tier game in tier V tanks is a very rare thing indeed. Fighting higher tier tanks so often can be quite frustrating at times, especially in a sluggish and undergunned "heavy" bottom tier tank.

 

But how does this work? Let's say the 5-10 template was chosen all the time. For this to work there would have to be about twice as many players playing at every lower tier, i.e. if 100 play at tier V, then 200 at tier IV and 400 at tier III. Conversely, 50 at tier VI, 25 at tier VII, 12 at tier VIII, 6 at IX and 3 at X. So 1 out of a few hundred players gets to regularly play against players of the same skill and similar tanks?

 

And just based on these templates, one should be maybe in the highest tier in 1 out of three to five games, but that is not my experience.

Actually tier V don't see tier III, which means worst MM in whole game (+2/-1), this make top tier scenario quite rare. I prefer tier VI, here top tier is more common.



StinkyStonky #7 Posted 08 August 2018 - 01:38 PM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 08 August 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

But how does this work? Let's say the 5-10 template was chosen all the time. For this to work there would have to be about twice as many players playing at every lower tier, i.e. if 100 play at tier V, then 200 at tier IV and 400 at tier III. Conversely, 50 at tier VI, 25 at tier VII, 12 at tier VIII, 6 at IX and 3 at X. So 1 out of a few hundred players gets to regularly play against players of the same skill and similar tanks?

 

You've got some insight into the problem the Match Maker has but your way of looking at it is adding to your confusion.

 

"Let's say the 5-10 template was chosen all the time. For this to work there would have to be ..." - That's not how it works.

 

The MM has a load of tier 3 tanks, 4s, 5s, etc and so it starts trying to fill matches of 30.

 

Lots of the 10s will be in pure 10 games, some will be in 5/10 and a small number will be in 3/5/7 with 8s and 9s.

Some of the remaining 9s will be put in pure 9s or 5/10 with 8s and a very small number will get 3/5/7 with 7s and 8s.

The 8s will get pure 8 or 5/10 with some 7s and a small number will get 3/5/7 with 7s and 6s.

Repeat for 7s, 6s and 5s (as previously mentioned 5s never see tier 3s).

 

So for any middle tier (6,7,8) a small number will be top tier 3/5/7, a slightly larger proportion will be top tier 5/10, a decent number will be single tier, a large number will be bottom tier 5/10 and the largest proportion will be bottom tier 3/5/7.

 

Once you stop feeling sorry for yourself you'll realise that there are only ever 3 tanks that are 2 tiers higher than you, that it's not your job to fight them and there's a good chance you wont even see them as they'll go to the other flank.

When you've come to terms with this (<Budism>Life is suffering</B&gt;) you'll also realise that in the games where you are top tier 3/5/7 almost everything you meet will be easy meat.

 

So with 3/5/7, most of the time you are required to play skilfully as a team and very occasionally (when top tier) you can yolo around killing stuff where ever you roll ... until you run into a pack of -2s who play well as a team.



Geoffrey_Ironfist #8 Posted 09 August 2018 - 11:34 AM

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Thanks to all of you, I am not sure the maths will work unless people are left waiting, without there being more tanks in lower tiers and maybe in tier X. I also just realised (thanks Trostani!) that tier V never sees tier III, and as far as I remember in my first 50 matches as tier V, I was never top tier, which was quite something.

 

Historically speaking, one of my favourite WW II tanks was the KV-1 but by the time it got anywhere on the battlefield there were only higher tier tanks left and it kept dying, especially as it had a 50% crew, no consumables, no camouflage and no upgrades, which I had assumed was normal. In fact, most of the time it never got anywhere, it was left lone and lonesome and often got blasted away on the way to where I thought the fight was going on. I still play it, because I like its looks, but in game terms it was a bad choice. Actually, the fact that it is so frustrating to be bottom tier at tier V so often has forced me to play tier IV and below.

 

View PostCheezix, on 08 August 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

TBH I don't mind being bottom tier in tier 5 or 6. I just play more careful and play tanks that I enjoy and fit my play style. Usually I avoid slow tanks, because all they have is armor which means nothing as a bottom tier tank. You're just an easy prey for higher tier tanks.

 

So, I guess  you do not play heavy tier V tanks? Seems such a waste not just because of the KV-1 but because on higher tiers you sometimes see tanks that may have participated in the moon landings and it feels weird.

 

 



mpf1959 #9 Posted 09 August 2018 - 11:39 AM

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I used to be complete rubbish in the KV1s, now I'm probably below average, one day i will be competent, and eventually I hope to be good. Be patient, it all comes round in time ;)

 

Edit, just to say I am an impatient person as well, I'm not just being sanctimonious, it is a fact though.


Edited by mpf1959, 09 August 2018 - 11:40 AM.


Babbet_1 #10 Posted 09 August 2018 - 11:59 AM

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View Postmpf1959, on 09 August 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

I used to be complete rubbish in the KV1s, now I'm probably below average, one day i will be competent, and eventually I hope to be good. Be patient, it all comes round in time ;)

 

Edit, just to say I am an impatient person as well, I'm not just being sanctimonious, it is a fact though.

 

I really do think (at least for me) it's a matter of "speed beats brawn" Whilst I'm still rubbish in both, I do better in the KV1S than the KV1. I just hate slow heavies, where I either get into the fight and get obliterated in seconds by a plague of higher tier tanks, or just arrive when the party's all over. At least the 1S has enough speed to be useful at times!

 



Geoffrey_Ironfist #11 Posted 09 August 2018 - 12:13 PM

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Before computer games, I used to play cardboard strategy games where out in the steppe KV-1s might start shooting at panzers from a mile away and it was a challenge, you just had to hope they shot all their ammunition and missed you or that some arty got them. The steppe was their dominion. In this game, it was so hard, at least at first, to do anything with a KV-1 other than die. It was anticlimactic, at least in the beginning, that they seemed so vulnerable.

kisli #12 Posted 09 August 2018 - 12:33 PM

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Because WG wants it so, they push 3/5/7 the rest is math.

 

The reason is so you rush ties and eventually buy premium and feed tomatoes in the process.



SilentGaze #13 Posted 09 August 2018 - 02:05 PM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 09 August 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

...

Actually, the fact that it is so frustrating to be bottom tier at tier V so often has forced me to play tier IV and below.

...

 

 

 

 

Well, tier5 tanks can also be in midtier, but tier4 tanks only in bottom in 3/5/7 system.  Therefore you will get more bottom tier games in tier4 than tier5.

My experience in tier5 is that I get 36% midtier and 64% bottom tier games in 3/5/7 system but 100% bottom in tier4 tanks.

In tier 5 I get 3/5/7 games 60% of all games but in tier 4 only 45%, so it will equalise bottom tier games a little. Still in tier4 my bottom tier games are 77% of all games but in tier5 only 57%.



ederfe #14 Posted 09 August 2018 - 03:41 PM

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A sidenote: don't torture yourself with 50% crews. Why is it even possible to get those I don't know.

Geoffrey_Ironfist #15 Posted 09 August 2018 - 05:17 PM

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View PostSilentGaze, on 09 August 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

Well, tier5 tanks can also be in midtier, but tier4 tanks only in bottom in 3/5/7 system.  Therefore you will get more bottom tier games in tier4 than tier5.

My experience in tier5 is that I get 36% midtier and 64% bottom tier games in 3/5/7 system but 100% bottom in tier4 tanks.

In tier 5 I get 3/5/7 games 60% of all games but in tier 4 only 45%, so it will equalise bottom tier games a little. Still in tier4 my bottom tier games are 77% of all games but in tier5 only 57%.

 

Thanks for the stats. I should start recording my own stats. If I am not mistaken, however, I have been top tier as tier IV. I do not think it is impossible.

 

Nonetheless, I have stopped researching heavy tanks because they are a pain in most battles until you get maybe to very high tiers.

 

EDIT Re: Ederfe, On 50 % crews: I have now realised they are useless. I had a Marder II with a 50% crew and 20% win rate. I sold it and bought it new with an academy-trained crew. It became my best tank with a WoT rating of over 4500, just by changing the crew.

 

 


Edited by Geoffrey_Ironfist, 09 August 2018 - 05:22 PM.


SilentGaze #16 Posted 09 August 2018 - 05:46 PM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 09 August 2018 - 05:17 PM, said:

 

Thanks for the stats. I should start recording my own stats. If I am not mistaken, however, I have been top tier as tier IV. I do not think it is impossible.

...

 

 

Ofcourse you can be in top tier with tier 4 tank, but only in 5/10 system, not 3/5/7 system because tier 2 tanks don't meet tier 4s.

 

I have had toptier games in 5/10 system 39%. That makes 20% top tier games in all tier 4 tank games.



Babbet_1 #17 Posted 09 August 2018 - 09:14 PM

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View PostSilentGaze, on 09 August 2018 - 05:46 PM, said:

 

Of course you can be in top tier with tier 4 tank, but only in 5/10 system........

 

 

 

True, but in my experience, those games are as rare as hens' teeth! :(  That's one of the reasons I have been playing the M8A1 Yankee TD a lot recently - even as bottom tier in a 3/5/7 match, the speed, camo and gun are good enough to make a difference (with judicious use of a little gold ammo of course!) All that's needed now is for ME to get good enough! :bush:

 



Geoffrey_Ironfist #18 Posted 09 August 2018 - 11:02 PM

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View PostSilentGaze, on 09 August 2018 - 05:46 PM, said:

 

Ofcourse you can be in top tier with tier 4 tank, but only in 5/10 system, not 3/5/7 system because tier 2 tanks don't meet tier 4s.

 

I have had toptier games in 5/10 system 39%. That makes 20% top tier games in all tier 4 tank games.

 

I played 22 battles this evening with tier III, IV and V tanks. Two were all tanks same tier. Of the remaining 20, I was top tier in one and bottom tier (5:10 or 3:5:7) in 19 battles! That's my usual experience but I wanted to check. I probably get one top tier game in an evening out of 20 or 30 games - if that!


Edited by Geoffrey_Ironfist, 09 August 2018 - 11:05 PM.


Babbet_1 #19 Posted 09 August 2018 - 11:11 PM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 09 August 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

 

I played 22 battles this evening with tier III, IV and V tanks. Two were all tanks same tier. Of the remaining 20, I was top tier in one and bottom tier (5:10 or 3:5:7) in 19 battles! That's my usual experience but I wanted to check. I probably get one top tier game in an evening out of 20 or 30 games - if that!

 

Yes, that's about the going rate!  :great:

Geoffrey_Ironfist #20 Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:54 AM

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I went up to 33 games tonight, in tiers III-V. Two were same tier. The rest were multi-tier: 5:10 or 3:5:7. Of these I was top tier in 1, mid-tier in another one and bottom tier in 29! Why does it have to be like that? There would have to be tons and tons of entry-level players for low tier players to never get better placed in multi-tier games.




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