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The USK will allow mustache and swastikas in Wolfenstein

USK mustache swastika games art

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duijm #141 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:10 PM

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View Postjabster, on 10 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

 

Cost was far to high for who exactly?

 

Do you think less, the same or more British people died as a result of Dresden.

 

The same.  And where do you want to go to? 25000 German civilians are worth saving how many English soldiers?  1, 10 1000? This is a pointless discussion. 

 

In my opinion war was done. Russians were at the Oder. So no was not justified. Very different to atomic bomb on Japan. Killed much more but saved even more because Japan surrendered.

 



Dorander #142 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:10 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

 

Still, the symbols have never bothered anyone outside of Germany/Austria, so while condemning the criminal aspects of their ideology, I see little point in banning these symbols because it then calls for an uncomfortable value judgement when we are needed to define what level of evil we consider acceptable and what not, IMO.

 

View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

 

The question then is does seeing the swastika and other symbols of Nazi Germany actually seriously encourage anyone to support what is at best a cynical, genocidal and totalitarian ideology (despite having some redeeming features in the areas of animal protection/economy). Does seeing the hammer and cycle/red star encourage sympathy towards another cynical and homicidal regime?

 

In terms of WoT, you would hardly see any changes at least when it comes to German tanks as they used the Balkenkreuz and not the swastika. (My intention was not to slap a mustache and swastika on any of the German tanks in the game, just for the sake of clarification.) For WoWP and WoWS it would make a much bigger difference.

 

IMHO wanting to see historically accurate emblems does not translate into support for any particular political ideology. Each of us is entitled to resent any of them, of course, but seriously, how would we feel about watching a WW2 film with both the German and Soviet emblems having been 'sanitized' for 'viewer comfort' or for reasons of 'political correctness'.

 

 

Well the symbols have bothered plenty people outside of Germany/Austria, though I only recently learned that when it comes to Nazi symbols, Germany has some really strict laws. I had to do some searching to find anything remotely consistent about how the symbols are treated by law where I live, and the gist of it is that no symbol is technically illegal, but using such a symbol (such as Nazi symbols) for certain purpose (such as encouraging discrimination) can be illegal under the appropriate laws.

 

In essence, what matters is the intent with which the symbol is used, which is a matter of association: what people believe the symbols mean. This is why people get bothered seeing Nazi symbols, it raises the question: "Why is it there?" and this is the crux for WoT as well. In the case of documentaries and history books and such we have a clear answer. In the case of art (including games), the question needs due consideration. The question for WoT is not "Why aren't there Nazi symbols in here?" but "Why should Nazi symbols be added to it?" What purpose does it possibly serve? What kind of consequences can we expect from adding these symbols?

 

I'm going to guess from the content of your posts that you're from Germany, and that you're not used to seeing the symbols used in games and some other artforms (also, I heard a story that blood in German versions of games is coloured green instead of red, any truth to that?). The change in adjucation for these symbols may prompt people from Germany to claim "The symbols should be added to games where it's appropriate now.", but the absence of these symbols in WoT isn't a matter of German law, it's a matter of the symbols having no purpose in this game. Games with Nazi-symbols exist where I live, there's no WoT version that includes them for non-Germans. From what I know of WoWS and WoWP it wouldn't serve any purpose there either. Adding the symbols doesn't give us any new information, it's only inevitably going to generate pointless controversy as the inevitable Nazi-symbol-flying crowd will consist of a small number of people who enjoy historical accuracy, a bunch of trolls baiting vocal anti-facists, and a group of genuine Neo-Nazis who will claim they're part of the first group so they can safely fly the flag of their actual beliefs.

 

Why'd we want to invite that into a game setting which tends to get toxic enough without such additional flamebaiting? We're better off just going back to shooting people (or tanks, ships, planes, whichever) peacefully, at least that way the damage is restricted mostly to pride and pixels.

 

Edit: fixed a typo, added an accidentally deleted part of a sentence.


Edited by Dorander, 10 August 2018 - 07:12 PM.


duijm #143 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:12 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

 

You've done nothing but lie, exaggerate or deflect  from the get-go. Trying to make out that the allies bombing  Germany makes the allies as bad as what the nazi's did is just plain wrong.  The allies were just trying to end a war you claim ended in 1944.

 

Yes I live in England.  Might explain why I know the difference between a million and a billion.

 

No I am not claiming that. You stop lying dude. Listen to what I say! 

jabster #144 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:17 PM

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View Postduijm, on 10 August 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

 

The same.  And where do you want to go to? 25000 German civilians are worth saving how many English soldiers?  1, 10 1000? This is a pointless discussion. 

 

 

Why is it pointless, how many British soldiers do you think were worth for a German citizen?

pathed91 #145 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:20 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:

 

I think the plain fact that they built facilities where people could be murdered in on an industrial scale because of their race would be that.  No gulag ever had rail head supplied gas chambers working around the clock for months on end.  I'll also mention in passing the nazis who made lampshades from human skin because they liked the the tattoos of their victims.

 

The gulags differ in that they didn't use gas to murder the inmates, but they still worked them to death. And the lampshades seems to be false, lies to make the nazis seem even worse than they already are

 

https://en.wikipedia...from_human_skin

 

This is why I don't buy into the whole "nazis are the worst scum in history", because people like you come with wild claims of nazi lampshades instead of just pointing out things they did we have clear evidence of.

 

I'm not trying to say that nazis are not awful human beings, but there are so many other evil regimes through out history I don't think we need to put nazi germany on a pedestal and proclaim that they are any worse than all the other mass murderers.



Karasu_Hidesuke #146 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:30 PM

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View PostDorander, on 10 August 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

 

 

Well the symbols have bothered plenty people outside of Germany/Austria, though I only recently learned that when it comes to Nazi symbols, Germany has some really strict laws. I had to do some searching to find anything remotely consistent about how the symbols are treated by law where I live, and the gist of it is that no symbol is technically illegal, but using such a symbol (such as Nazi symbols) for certain purpose (such as encouraging discrimination) can be illegal under the appropriate laws.

 

In essence, what matters is the intent with which the symbol is used, which is a matter of association: what people believe the symbols mean. This is why people get bothered seeing Nazi symbols, it raises the question: "Why is it there?" and this is the crux for WoT as well. In the case of documentaries and history books and such we have a clear answer. In the case of art (including games), the question needs due consideration. The question for WoT is not "Why aren't there Nazi symbols in here?" but "Why should Nazi symbols be added to it?" What purpose does it possibly serve? What kind of consequences can we expect from adding these symbols?

 

I'm going to guess from the content of your posts that you're from Germany, and that you're not used to seeing the symbols used in games and some other artforms (also, I heard a story that blood in German versions of games is coloured green instead of red, any truth to that?). The change in adjucation for these symbols may prompt people from Germany to claim "The symbols should be added to games where it's appropriate now.", but the absence of these symbols in WoT isn't a matter of German law, it's a matter of the symbols having no purpose in this game. Games with Nazi-symbols exist where I live, there's no WoT version that includes them for non-Germans. From what I know of WoWS and WoWP it wouldn't serve any purpose there either. Adding the symbols doesn't give us any new information, it's only inevitably going to generate pointless controversy as the inevitable Nazi-symbol-flying crowd will consist of a small number of people who enjoy historical accuracy, a bunch of trolls baiting vocal anti-facists, and a group of genuine Neo-Nazis who will claim they're part of the first group so they can safely fly the flag of their actual beliefs.

 

Why'd we want to invite that into a game setting which tends to get toxic enough without such additional flamebaiting? We're better off just going back to shooting people (or tanks, ships, planes, whichever) peacefully, at least that way the damage is restricted mostly to pride and pixels.

 

Edit: fixed a typo, added an accidentally deleted part of a sentence.

 

I'm actually not from Germany but from another country that joined the Axis war effort. I grant you that it would not be a desirable thing seeing crowds of people in the streets waving Nazi flags. On the other hand, there are people who collect Nazi memorabilia and may display as part of collection (yes, some of those are 'political' collectors but not all), the poorer ones have to mostly settle for repro stuff etc. The context matters as been said in this thread, too.

 

Though I would not want to see these flags and symbols put to actual current political context, I have zero objection to seeing them in re-enactment, collection or entertainment contexts. The problem with games under German law is exactly that they are not considered art (like movies are). I've grown very used to seeing them in a number of historical contexts, whether serious documentary or entertainment focused. I've seen them in school text books, reference books dealing with WW2, comics books, movies, countless tv-series and games. Being so used to seeing them and not having witnessed their terror first hand, it is hard for me to see why some people get so worked up when they see them.

 

This change would really have very little effect in terms of tank emblems for WoT. It would be very unlikely they would ever introduce unit specific emblems that are controversial.

 

 


Edited by Browarszky, 10 August 2018 - 07:33 PM.


duijm #147 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:34 PM

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View Postjabster, on 10 August 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

 

Why is it pointless, how many British soldiers do you think were worth for a German citizen?

 

Like I said pointless discussion.  

jabster #148 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:40 PM

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View Postduijm, on 10 August 2018 - 06:34 PM, said:

 

Like I said pointless discussion.  

 

How is it pointless. Being virtuous after the event is easy.

Hedgehog1963 #149 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:42 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

 

The gulags differ in that they didn't use gas to murder the inmates, but they still worked them to death. And the lampshades seems to be false, lies to make the nazis seem even worse than they already are

 

https://en.wikipedia...from_human_skin

 

This is why I don't buy into the whole "nazis are the worst scum in history", because people like you come with wild claims of nazi lampshades instead of just pointing out things they did we have clear evidence of.

 

I'm not trying to say that nazis are not awful human beings, but there are so many other evil regimes through out history I don't think we need to put nazi germany on a pedestal and proclaim that they are any worse than all the other mass murderers.

 

The skin lampshades was an aside.  Focus instead on the gas chambers and 6 million murdered for their race.

 

You can deflect all you like. I've make my own decision as to which was the most vile regime based on the evidence. 



pathed91 #150 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:52 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

 

The skin lampshades was an aside.  Focus instead on the gas chambers and 6 million murdered for their race.

 

You can deflect all you like. I've make my own decision as to which was the most vile regime based on the evidence. 

 

I didn't deflect, I agreed that gas chambers were used in concentration camps but that people died in gulags as well, only not by gasing them.

 

And if you want to bring up numbers again, then ussr still killed more people then germany. The man-made famine Holodomore in Ukraine killed roughly 10 million people before ww2 had even started.


Edited by pathed91, 10 August 2018 - 07:52 PM.


duijm #151 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:06 PM

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View Postjabster, on 10 August 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

 

How is it pointless. Being virtuous after the event is easy.

 

Blaming all on Germany too is easy (The Death of Democracy: Hitler's Rise to Power and the Downfall of the Weimar Republic ....nice to read) . And it is not like the Poles were free after the war. Or the Allies helped Finland when it got attacked....or the baltic states.  Oh or all British colonies were people were conquered and were not free. ....also cost lives. Usa and the Indians. So all coutries have stuff to be ashamed off. 

 

And so back to my question.....ban only nazi logo's?  I dont have a problem with it in game. Nor do I have with statue of Lenin etc.


Edited by duijm, 10 August 2018 - 08:32 PM.


pathed91 #152 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:10 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 07:59 PM, said:

 

Concentration camps are not where the gas chambers were.  You people need to learn the difference.

 

Again deflection onto what the Soviets did.  Why can't we talk about the nazis?  Systematic murder of countless thousands people based on their race in purpose built facilities. 

 

 

 

fair enough, I think death camps is the correct term and not concentration camps.

 

How can I present an argument that another regime is just as bad as the nazis if your response is just "It's deflection and what-aboutism". If you are going to make a statement that the nazis are the worst ever, then you have by definition compare them to other regimes that violated human rights of its populus. How can you say with certainty that X > Y if you never even measure Y in the first place. If we don't define which regime is the worst by something that can be objectivly measured (like civilians murdered by the state) it just becomes a debate about which means of murdering people you personaly finds most vile and cruel.



Dorander #153 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:14 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

 

I'm actually not from Germany but from another country that joined the Axis war effort. I grant you that it would not be a desirable thing seeing crowds of people in the streets waving Nazi flags. On the other hand, there are people who collect Nazi memorabilia and may display as part of collection (yes, some of those are 'political' collectors but not all), the poorer ones have to mostly settle for repro stuff etc. The context matters as been said in this thread, too.

 

Though I would not want to see these flags and symbols put to actual current political context, I have zero objection to seeing them in re-enactment, collection or entertainment contexts. The problem with games under German law is exactly that they are not considered art (like movies are). I've grown very used to seeing them in a number of historical contexts, whether serious documentary or entertainment focused. I've seen them in school text books, reference books dealing with WW2, comics books, movies, countless tv-series and games. Being so used to seeing them and not having witnessed their terror first hand, it is hard for me to see why some people get so worked up when they see them.

 

This change would really have very little effect in terms of tank emblems for WoT. It would be very unlikely they would ever introduce unit specific emblems that are controversial.

 

 

 

During my search for local legislation I actually ran into a fairly recent article (2015 I believe it was) regarding some fellow who followed a member of an anti-facist group on his confrontational tour of some event in which Nazi memorabilia were traded. I also found that apparently such items are entirely legal to keep, trade and display, as long as they are genuine articles of history and not fakes to represent the ideology... but that also it's really hazy how that determination is made or by whom.

 

I also believe it dangerous to censor history, even with the best of intentions. I raised some eyebrows at that anecdote about reenactment, it seems strange to me but like I wrote in an earlier post, and like yourself, I don't feel the impact like a past generation might have. Germany's odd laws actually surprised me but I guess they have a vested interest in not even having the appearance of Nazi-sentiment. I was also surprised that "Er ist wieder da" apparently wasn't (isn't?) available on German Netflix, it's a brilliant movie. 



Hedgehog1963 #154 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:33 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 07:10 PM, said:

 

fair enough, I think death camps is the correct term and not concentration camps.

 

How can I present an argument that another regime is just as bad as the nazis if your response is just "It's deflection and what-aboutism". If you are going to make a statement that the nazis are the worst ever, then you have by definition compare them to other regimes that violated human rights of its populus. How can you say with certainty that X > Y if you never even measure Y in the first place. If we don't define which regime is the worst by something that can be objectivly measured (like civilians murdered by the state) it just becomes a debate about which means of murdering people you personaly finds most vile and cruel.

 

Because you're just basing it on the number of people who died.  A very crude yardstick. You're not apparently prepared to consider why the victims had to die in the eyes of the regime; how they were chosen to die; what preparation went into preparing for their death and the manner in which the victims of each regime were killed.  My opinion is that building facilities to murder dozens of people at a time in gas chambers in what amounts to an industrial process is just about the most evil thing that has ever been done.  The fact that this was then done to thousands upon thousands of people is the essence of pure evil to me.  Can you not see a difference?

 

Yes the Soviet regime was evil.  In many ways the cruelty there lay in the numbers of people who died idolising Stalin and who believed that if only he knew what was happening he'd save them.  When you read about this it is almost too hard to bear.  But no I don't see it as bad as what the nazis did and much of that lies in the motivation of the regimes in what they did.  The other thing is that The Soviets won the war.  They saved the rest of us from the nazis.  That counts for something.

 

You are entitled to arrive at a different conclusion, but arguing that the Soviets were worse only because they killed more is just weak in my eyes and I do not agree for reasons stated above.

 

But here is the point: We're talking about the nazis and all you want to talk about is the Soviets. The only way you come across is excusing the nazis on the basis that the Soviets were worse.  Pretty disgusting behaviour if it were true and whether or not that is your motivation it is deflection.

 

As to whether there is any justice in nazi symbols being banned in WoT (for example) while Soviet kitsch isn't, well "probably not" is the answer.  This just comes down to the victor taking the spoils.  If it bothered you enough you'd stop playing WoT.

 

 


Edited by Hedgehog1963, 10 August 2018 - 08:36 PM.


duijm #155 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:48 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 07:33 PM, said:

 

Because you're just basing it on the number of people who died.  A very crude yardstick. You're not apparently prepared to consider why the victims had to die in the eyes of the regime; how they were chosen to die; what preparation went into preparing for their death and the manner in which the victims of each regime were killed.  My opinion is that building facilities to murder dozens of people at a time in gas chambers in what amounts to an industrial process is just about the most evil thing that has ever been done.  The fact that this was then done to thousands upon thousands of people is the essence of pure evil to me.  Can you not see a difference?

 

Yes the Soviet regime was evil.  In many ways the cruelty there lay in the numbers of people who died idolising Stalin and who believed that if only he knew what was happening he'd save them.  When you read about this it is almost too hard to bear.  But no I don't see it as bad as what the nazis did and much of that lies in the motivation of the regimes in what they did.  The other thing is that The Soviets won the war.  They saved the rest of us from the nazis.  That counts for something.

 

You are entitled to arrive at a different conclusion, but arguing that the Soviets were worse only because they killed more is just weak in my eyes and I do not agree for reasons stated above.

 

But here is the point: We're talking about the nazis and all you want to talk about is the Soviets. The only way you come across is excusing the nazis on the basis that the Soviets were worse.  Pretty disgusting behaviour if it were true and whether or not that is your motivation it is deflection.

 

As to whether there is any justice in nazi symbols being banned in WoT (for example) while Soviet kitsch isn't, well "probably not" is the answer.  This just comes down to the victor taking the spoils.  If it bothered you enough you'd stop playing WoT.

 

 

 

Sad thing is you only want to talk about the nazi's. Why? 

And no I do think killing more people, sending whole groups of people to the gulags and starving 10 billion ukrainians is worse. I also wonder if all people that were "liberated" by the ussr would agree with you. 



pathed91 #156 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:50 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

 

Because you're just basing it on the number of people who died.  A very crude yardstick. You're not apparently prepared to consider why the victims had to die in the eyes of the regime; how they were chosen to die; what preparation went into preparing for their death and the manner in which the victims of each regime were killed.  My opinion is that building facilities to murder dozens of people at a time in gas chambers in what amounts to an industrial process is just about the most evil thing that has ever been done.  The fact that this was then done to thousands upon thousands of people is the essence of pure evil to me.  Can you not see a difference?

 

Yes the Soviet regime was evil.  In many ways the cruelty there lay in the numbers of people who died idolising Stalin and who believed that if only he knew what was happening he'd save them.  When you read about this it is almost too hard to bear.  But no I don't see it as bad as what the nazis did and much of that lies in the motivation of the regimes in what they did.  The other thing is that The Soviets won the war.  They saved the rest of us from the nazis.  That counts for something.

 

You are entitled to arrive at a different conclusion, but arguing that the Soviets were worse only because they killed more is just weak in my eyes and I do not agree for reasons stated above.

 

But here is the point: We're talking about the nazis and all you want to talk about is the Soviets. The only way you come across is excusing the nazis on the basis that the Soviets were worse.  Pretty disgusting behaviour and it is deflection.

 

As to whether there is any justice in nazi symbols being banned in WoT (for example) while Soviet kitsch isn't, well "probably not" is the answer.  This just comes down to the victor taking the spoils.  If it bothered you enough you'd stop playing WoT.

 

 

 

And that is a totally personal conclusion, I could just as well say that the inquisition burning people alive or the roman empire crucifying people is a way worse death than being gased to death. I personally don't know what of those three ways is th worst death, which is my point, it's highly personal.

 

I find the motivation argument lacking. The nazis genocided based on race while the communists genocided based on class. Both motivations are total bollocks. And is it really "saving all of us" when the soviets forced east europe under its totalitarian rule? I don't think so.

 

I never argued that the soviets are worse, I think they are just as bad. The numbers killed I only brought up because you brought up the numbers that died in the death camps. I do think however that communism is more dangerous than nazism because it is more subversive. The nazis are cleare from the start that they want to genocide people while the communists try to sell you the ideology with equality of outcome and leave out the part about killing the rich and stealing their property for "the good of the people".

 

I bring up the soviets because you made a comparative statement when you claimed that the nazis were the worst regime in history. I could just as well claim you are excusing the soviets for what they did.

 

This is probably the only point we agree on, It totally is hypocracy to allow one symbol and not the other. Personally I find wargamings failed balancing more offensive than the symbols :) 



Hedgehog1963 #157 Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:51 PM

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View Postduijm, on 10 August 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

 

Sad thing is you only want to talk about the nazi's. Why? 

And no I do think killing more people, sending whole groups of people to the gulags and starving 10 billion ukrainians is worse. I also wonder if all people that were "liberated" by the ussr would agree with you. 

 

Because that is the subject of this thread. Oh you hadn't noticed because you want to talk about everyone but the nazis.

 

I wan't even talking to you.  I was replying to someone who had at least made an argument which wan't full of lies, like yours have been.



Hedgehog1963 #158 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:01 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 07:50 PM, said:

 

And that is a totally personal conclusion, I could just as well say that the inquisition burning people alive or the roman empire crucifying people is a way worse death than being gased to death. I personally don't know what of those three ways is th worst death, which is my point, it's highly personal.

 

No you're just not getting it.  No other regime to my knowledge ever planned, built and used facilities intended to murder people my the dozen and dispose of them in the way the nazis did.

 

I find the motivation argument lacking. The nazis genocided based on race while the communists genocided based on class. Both motivations are total bollocks. And is it really "saving all of us" when the soviets forced east europe under its totalitarian rule? I don't think so.

 

The Soviets mostly eliminated people because their existence was inconvenient or they were a threat to the regime - not to the a supoerior race - and anyone - anyone- could  fall foul of it even the immediate circle of the leader.  Wasn't any where near based on class alone.  Again a massive oversimplification.

 

They saved us from the nazis and they were the worst.  The experience of your country might have been different, but you've already said that your country allied itself with nazi Germany.  You chose the wrong side and paid the price.  Your army will have joined in the invasion of Soviet Russia and you expect not to be treated roughly when you lost?

I know this: The  Soviets never bombed the UK.  They never invaded our immediate allies.  They never scoured those countries they invaded for a certain people and took them to industrial killing facilities in cattle trucks and syatematically murdered them there.

 

I never argued that the soviets are worse, I think they are just as bad. The numbers killed I only brought up because you brought up the numbers that died in the death camps. I do think however that communism is more dangerous than nazism because it is more subversive. The nazis are cleare from the start that they want to genocide people while the communists try to sell you the ideology with equality of outcome and leave out the part about killing the rich and stealing their property for "the good of the people".

 

I bring up the soviets because you made a comparative statement when you claimed that the nazis were the worst regime in history. I could just as well claim you are excusing the soviets for what they did.

 

Then you'd be a liar.

This is probably the only point we agree on, It totally is hypocracy to allow one symbol and not the other. Personally I find wargamings failed balancing more offensive than the symbols :) 

 


Edited by Hedgehog1963, 10 August 2018 - 09:05 PM.


pathed91 #159 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:12 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 09:01 PM, said:

And that is a totally personal conclusion, I could just as well say that the inquisition burning people alive or the roman empire crucifying people is a way worse death than being gased to death. I personally don't know what of those three ways is th worst death, which is my point, it's highly personal.

 

No you're just not getting it.  No other regime to my knowledge ever planned, built and used facilities intended to murder people my the dozen and dispose of them in the way the nazis did.

 

I find the motivation argument lacking. The nazis genocided based on race while the communists genocided based on class. Both motivations are total bollocks. And is it really "saving all of us" when the soviets forced east europe under its totalitarian rule? I don't think so.

 

The Soviets mostly eliminated people because their existence was inconvenient or they were a threat to the regime - not to the a supoerior race - and anyone - anyone- could  fall foul of it even the immediate circle of the leader.  Wasn't any where near based on class alone.  Again a massive oversimplification.

 

They saved us from the nazis and they were the worst.  The experience of your country might have been different, but you've already said that your country allied itself with nazi Germany.  You chose the wrong side and paid the price.  I know this: The  Soviets never bombed the UK.  They never invaded our immediate allies.  They never scoured those countries they invaded for a certain people and took them to industrial killing facilities in cattle trucks and syatematically murdered them there.

 

I never argued that the soviets are worse, I think they are just as bad. The numbers killed I only brought up because you brought up the numbers that died in the death camps. I do think however that communism is more dangerous than nazism because it is more subversive. The nazis are cleare from the start that they want to genocide people while the communists try to sell you the ideology with equality of outcome and leave out the part about killing the rich and stealing their property for "the good of the people".

 

I bring up the soviets because you made a comparative statement when you claimed that the nazis were the worst regime in history. I could just as well claim you are excusing the soviets for what they did.

 

Then you'd be a liar.

This is probably the only point we agree on, It totally is hypocracy to allow one symbol and not the other. Personally I find wargamings failed balancing more offensive than the symbols :) 

  1. I never said the soviets only genocided based on class, however that is a huge part of the ideology. Redistribution of wealth and if you are a landowner who refuse to give his private property to the state is murdered.
  2. I don't know where you get that my country allied with the germans from, I never said that. Don't you think that the prisoners sent to gulags where sent like cattle as well?
  3. Please explaine how I'm a liar, I honestly don't know what you are talking about.

 

 



duijm #160 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:32 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 07:51 PM, said:

 

Because that is the subject of this thread. Oh you hadn't noticed because you want to talk about everyone but the nazis.

 

I wan't even talking to you.  I was replying to someone who had at least made an argument which wan't full of lies, like yours have been.

 

The subject is about using nazi logo's....not about who was worsed regime. You started that silly discussion.

 

My arguments are just fine. Just sad you can only look bias to the facts. 







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