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Hedgehog1963 #161 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:34 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

  1. I never said the soviets only genocided based on class, however that is a huge part of the ideology. Redistribution of wealth and if you are a landowner who refuse to give his private property to the state is murdered.  Yeah but you were deflecting what the nazis did onto what the Soviets did as if it was the same.  It wan't anywhere near the same.
  2. I don't know where you get that my country allied with the germans from, I never said that. Don't you think that the prisoners sent to gulags where sent like cattle as well?  Sorry I did confuse you with Bozarsky. It was he who said he was from an axis nation. The point still stands.  Germany, Hungary, Romania and Bulagaria have no justifiable cause for complaint at Soviet occupation.  Why deflect onto the cattle trucks when we're talking about Auschwitz?  Just why?
  3. Please explaine how I'm a liar, I honestly don't know what you are talking about.  If you're even hinting that I'm excusing the Soviets or that I could be fairly accused of that then you are a liar.

 

 

 


Edited by Hedgehog1963, 10 August 2018 - 09:36 PM.


pathed91 #162 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:48 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

  1. I never said the soviets only genocided based on class, however that is a huge part of the ideology. Redistribution of wealth and if you are a landowner who refuse to give his private property to the state is murdered.  Yeah but you were deflecting what the nazis did onto what the Soviets did as if it was the same.  It wan't anywhere near the same.
  2. I don't know where you get that my country allied with the germans from, I never said that. Don't you think that the prisoners sent to gulags where sent like cattle as well?  Sorry I did confuse you with Bozarsky. It was hewho said he was from an axis nation.  Why deflect onto the cattle trucks when we're talking about Auschwitz?  Just why?
  3. Please explaine how I'm a liar, I honestly don't know what you are talking about.  If you're even hinting that I'm excusing the Soviets or that i could be fairly accused of that then you are a liar.
  1. I never meant to downplay what the nazis did. My intentions were to provide counterpoints where other nations had commited atrocities similar to the nazis. Another example: You know all those photos of starving people in german concentrationcamps? look up Andersonville prison during the american civil war and you will find pictures of inmates as malnurished as the people in the concentrationcamps.
  2. Because you brought cattle trucks up in the first place? And it is something that is similar with how people sent to both concentrationcamps and gulags have in common (You were asking for things that were the same between them)
  3. I'm not hinting that you are making excuses for the soviets. I'm saying that if by your logic I am excusing nazi crimes by listing crimes done by the soviets then you yourself would be guilty of excusing soviet crimes when countering my points about soviet crimes with crimes that the nazis commited.


Karasu_Hidesuke #163 Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:55 PM

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As a side note, I opened this thread to bring the matter to the community's attention. I also noticed after that WoWS forum was discussing this (to a much smaller degree) under the ongoing discussion about the Imperial German naval ensign (which is also missing from the game along with the correct KM ensign). Someone there made a point about the evaluation costs and how they are tied to profits apparently, so it is somewhat unlikely WG will do anything to introduce historically accurate German flags/emblems in the game.

 

 



Hedgehog1963 #164 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:02 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 08:48 PM, said:

  1. I never meant to downplay what the nazis did. My intentions were to provide counterpoints where other nations had commited atrocities similar to the nazis. Another example: You know all those photos of starving people in german concentrationcamps? look up Andersonville prison during the american civil war and you will find pictures of inmates as malnurished as the people in the concentrationcamps.  The effect of banging on about other regimes has is to downplay what the nazis did.  It makes no difference whatsoever that another regime did thing like what the nazis did.  It is deflection pure and simple.  And now you're doing it again with Andersonville.  It doesn't make Belsen etc any less of an atrocity.  And you're still sailing around the death camps.
  2. Because you brought cattle trucks up in the first place? And it is something that is similar with how people sent to both concentrationcamps and gulags have in common (You were asking for things that were the same between them).. Again the cattle trucks were a detail, not the point.  And these were also used to send people to a place where they were murdered on arrival,  by the countless thousands in batches of dozens.
  3. I'm not hinting that you are making excuses for the soviets. I'm saying that if by your logic I am excusing nazi crimes by listing crimes done by the soviets then you yourself would be guilty of excusing soviet crimes when countering my points about soviet crimes with crimes that the nazis commited.   No because you challenged me as to why I consider the nazi regime to be the worst.  I've good reason for that which I have tried to explain only for you to focus on the transport being used..  It doesn't follow that I think the Soviets were good.  Meanwhile your deflecting onto the Soviets, and now the Confederacy serves only to diminish the crimes of the nazis.  Neither regime came close.

 



pathed91 #165 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:22 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 10:02 PM, said:

  1. I never meant to downplay what the nazis did. My intentions were to provide counterpoints where other nations had commited atrocities similar to the nazis. Another example: You know all those photos of starving people in german concentrationcamps? look up Andersonville prison during the american civil war and you will find pictures of inmates as malnurished as the people in the concentrationcamps.  The effect of banging on about other regimes has is to downplay what the nazis did.  It makes no difference whatsoever that another regime did thing like what the nazis did.  It is deflection pure and simple.  And now you're doing it again with Andersonville.  It doesn't make Belsen etc any less of an atrocity.  And you're still sailing around the death camps.
  2. Because you brought cattle trucks up in the first place? And it is something that is similar with how people sent to both concentrationcamps and gulags have in common (You were asking for things that were the same between them).. Again the cattle trucks were a detail, not the point.  And these were also used to send people to a place where they were murdered on arrival,  by the countless thousands in batches of dozens.
  3. I'm not hinting that you are making excuses for the soviets. I'm saying that if by your logic I am excusing nazi crimes by listing crimes done by the soviets then you yourself would be guilty of excusing soviet crimes when countering my points about soviet crimes with crimes that the nazis commited.   No because you challenged me as to why I consider the nazi regime to be the worst.  I've good reason for that which I have tried to explain only for you to focus on the transport being used..  It doesn't follow that I think the Soviets were good.  Meanwhile your deflecting onto the Soviets, and now the Confederacy serves only to diminish the crimes of the nazis.  Neither regime came close.
  1. How the f@ck is it downplaying it when I highlight that some cruel actions that the nazis commited are not exclusive to the nazis? I might have been sailing around the death camps unintentionally, but you have ignored my points of atrocities as well. For the record about the death camps, Yes they were horrible, yes they are the only ones to gas the inmates (that I know of), but NO they are not the only camps with horribly inhumane livingconditions. I have already given examples of the gulags and Andersonville being similar in the housing of the inmates.
  2. I thought it was one of your points about the inhumane treatment of prisnoners. They weren't murdered on arrival as far as I know, they were housed there for some time before being murdered (please provide an example or a link of any evidence to the contrary)
  3. I have not only focused on the transport used, I have given several examples of crimes against humanity of other regimes. And you have not tried to explaine it to me, you just keep saying that they are the worst "because death camps", and I have argued that some of the things that happened in the death camps have happened elsewhere as well. Just as it doesn't follow that you think the soviets are good it doesn't follow that I doesn't think the nazis were bad. All you do is make the nazis seem like they are this embodiment of evil, which I don't think they are.

 

Now the reason I'm so adamant to argue over this is that currently there are people that think that the nazis are the worst people ever, and brand their political opponents as nazis to justify doing physical violence against them with things like #Punch a nazi. It doesn't even matter if they are nazis or not, just the mere accusation is enough. Even if they are nazis they are still human beings that deserve a fair trial because they have the same rights as everyone else. Your reasoning seems far too much like the far leftists promoting this kind of behavior. You are putting too much power into the word "nazi" IMHO.



Hedgehog1963 #166 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:52 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 09:22 PM, said:

  1. How the f@ck is it downplaying it when I highlight that some cruel actions that the nazis commited are not exclusive to the nazis? I might have been sailing around the death camps unintentionally, but you have ignored my points of atrocities as well. For the record about the death camps, Yes they were horrible, yes they are the only ones to gas the inmates (that I know of), but NO they are not the only camps with horribly inhumane livingconditions. I have already given examples of the gulags and Andersonville being similar in the housing of the inmates.
  2. I thought it was one of your points about the inhumane treatment of prisnoners. They weren't murdered on arrival as far as I know, they were housed there for some time before being murdered (please provide an example or a link of any evidence to the contrary)
  3. I have not only focused on the transport used, I have given several examples of crimes against humanity of other regimes. And you have not tried to explaine it to me, you just keep saying that they are the worst "because death camps", and I have argued that some of the things that happened in the death camps have happened elsewhere as well. Just as it doesn't follow that you think the soviets are good it doesn't follow that I doesn't think the nazis were bad. All you do is make the nazis seem like they are this embodiment of evil, which I don't think they are.

 

Now the reason I'm so adamant to argue over this is that currently there are people that think that the nazis are the worst people ever, and brand their political opponents as nazis to justify doing physical violence against them with things like #Punch a nazi. It doesn't even matter if they are nazis or not, just the mere accusation is enough. Even if they are nazis they are still human beings that deserve a fair trial because they have the same rights as everyone else. Your reasoning seems far too much like the far leftists promoting this kind of behavior. You are putting too much power into the word "nazi" IMHO.

 

"Living conditions" in a death camp?  Can you not even see a contradiction in what you are saying?  I'm talking about people being taken somewhere and killed.

 

At Auschwitz Birkenau they were taken off the train, sorted to see if any of them were valuable to the camp and the rest - the majority - were told to strip for a shower before being gassed in large groups. Right off the platform into the gas chambers.  I've been to the holocaust exhibit at the IWM.  I've read "life and Fate," and the nazi trilogy.  I'm sure of my facts.I find it astonishing you don't know this. 

 

You ask for citation.  here is an extract from the Auschwitz Wikipedia page

 

 

Prisoners were transported from all over German-occupied Europe by rail, arriving in daily convoys. By July 1942, the SS were conducting "selections". Incoming Jews were segregated; those deemed able to work were sent to the selection officer's right and admitted into the camp, and those deemed unfit for labor were sent to the selection officer's left and immediately gassed. The group selected to die, about three-quarters of the total, included almost all children, women with small children, all the elderly, and all those who appeared on brief and superficial inspection by an SS doctor not to be completely fit.

After the selection process was complete, those too ill or too young to walk to the crematoria were transported there on trucks or killed on the spot with a bullet to the head. The belongings of the arrivals were seized by the SS and sorted in an area of the camp called "Canada", so called because Canada was seen as a land of plenty. Many of the SS at the camp enriched themselves by pilfering the confiscated property.

SS officers told the victims they were to take a shower and undergo delousing. The victims undressed in an outer chamber and walked into the gas chamber, which was disguised as a shower facility. Some were even issued soap and a towel. The Zyklon B was delivered by ambulance to the crematoria by a special SS bureau known as the Hygienic Institute. The actual delivery of the gas to the victims was always handled by the SS, on the order of the supervising SS doctor. After the doors were shut, SS men dumped in the Zyklon B pellets through vents in the roof or holes in the side of the chamber. The victims were dead within 20 minutes. Despite the thick concrete walls, screaming and moaning from within could be heard outside. In one failed attempt to muffle the noise, two motorcycle engines were revved up to full throttle nearby, but the sound of yelling could still be heard over the engines.

Sonderkommando wearing gas masks then dragged the bodies from the chamber. The victims' glasses, artificial limbs, jewelry, and hair were removed, and any dental work was extracted so the gold could be melted down. The corpses were burned in the nearby incinerators, and the ashes were buried, thrown in the river, or used as fertilizer.

The gas chambers worked to their fullest capacity from April to July 1944, during the massacre of Hungary's Jews. Hungary was an ally of Germany during the war, but it had resisted turning over its Jews until Germany invaded that March. A rail spur leading directly into Birkenau was completed that May to deliver the victims closer to the gas chambers. From 14 May until early July 1944, 437,000 Hungarian Jews, half of the pre-war population, were deported to Auschwitz, at a rate of 12,000 a day for a considerable part of that period. The incoming volume was so great that the SS resorted to burning corpses in open-air pits as well as in the crematoria.The last selection took place on 30 October 1944.

 

 

Yes I have explained to you about the fact that these people were singled out based on their race and the planning and forethought that went into it. To conceive of those camps... just unimaginable to anyone else.  I just don't think you have understood the lessons of the nazi regime.  Industrialised killing of people was only a thing under them.

 

 

Anyway I'm done with this.  I'm trying to explain to someone who doesn't even posses the facts.  I ahve better things to do.

 

 


Edited by Hedgehog1963, 10 August 2018 - 10:53 PM.


pathed91 #167 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:04 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

 

"Living conditions" in a death camp?  Can you not even see a contradiction in what you are saying?  I'm talking about people being taken somewhere and killed.

 

At Auschwitz Birkenau they were taken off the train, sorted to see if any of them were valuable to the camp and the rest - the majority - were told to strip for a shower before being gassed in large groups. Right off the platform into the gas chambers.  I've been to the holocaust exhibit at the IWM.  I've read "life and Fate," and the nazi trilogy.  I'm sure of my facts.I find it astonishing you don't know this. 

 

You ask for citation.  here is an extract from the Auschwitz Wikipedia page

 

 

Prisoners were transported from all over German-occupied Europe by rail, arriving in daily convoys. By July 1942, the SS were conducting "selections". Incoming Jews were segregated; those deemed able to work were sent to the selection officer's right and admitted into the camp, and those deemed unfit for labor were sent to the selection officer's left and immediately gassed. The group selected to die, about three-quarters of the total, included almost all children, women with small children, all the elderly, and all those who appeared on brief and superficial inspection by an SS doctor not to be completely fit.

After the selection process was complete, those too ill or too young to walk to the crematoria were transported there on trucks or killed on the spot with a bullet to the head. The belongings of the arrivals were seized by the SS and sorted in an area of the camp called "Canada", so called because Canada was seen as a land of plenty. Many of the SS at the camp enriched themselves by pilfering the confiscated property.

SS officers told the victims they were to take a shower and undergo delousing. The victims undressed in an outer chamber and walked into the gas chamber, which was disguised as a shower facility. Some were even issued soap and a towel. The Zyklon B was delivered by ambulance to the crematoria by a special SS bureau known as the Hygienic Institute. The actual delivery of the gas to the victims was always handled by the SS, on the order of the supervising SS doctor. After the doors were shut, SS men dumped in the Zyklon B pellets through vents in the roof or holes in the side of the chamber. The victims were dead within 20 minutes. Despite the thick concrete walls, screaming and moaning from within could be heard outside. In one failed attempt to muffle the noise, two motorcycle engines were revved up to full throttle nearby, but the sound of yelling could still be heard over the engines.

Sonderkommando wearing gas masks then dragged the bodies from the chamber. The victims' glasses, artificial limbs, jewelry, and hair were removed, and any dental work was extracted so the gold could be melted down. The corpses were burned in the nearby incinerators, and the ashes were buried, thrown in the river, or used as fertilizer.

The gas chambers worked to their fullest capacity from April to July 1944, during the massacre of Hungary's Jews. Hungary was an ally of Germany during the war, but it had resisted turning over its Jews until Germany invaded that March. A rail spur leading directly into Birkenau was completed that May to deliver the victims closer to the gas chambers. From 14 May until early July 1944, 437,000 Hungarian Jews, half of the pre-war population, were deported to Auschwitz, at a rate of 12,000 a day for a considerable part of that period. The incoming volume was so great that the SS resorted to burning corpses in open-air pits as well as in the crematoria.The last selection took place on 30 October 1944.

 

 

Yes I have explained to you about the fact that these people were singled out based on their race and the planning and forethought that went into it. To conceive of those camps... just unimaginable to anyone else.  I just don't think you have understood the lessons of the nazi regime.  Industrialised killing of people was only a thing under them.

 

 

Anyway I'm done with this.  I'm trying to explain to someone who doesn't even posses the facts.  I ahve better things to do.

 

 

I didn't know it was as many as 3/4 that were deemed unfit for work and executed emidiatly, so I conceed that. However I still stand for the other points I made.



Hedgehog1963 #168 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:07 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

I didn't know it was as many as 3/4 that were deemed unfit for work and executed emidiatly, so I conceed that. However I still stand for the other points I made.

 

My points rely on my knowledge of what the nazis actually did, particularly this.  At least you know now why I believe they were the worst.

Evilier_than_Skeletor #169 Posted 11 August 2018 - 12:00 AM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

Yes I have explained to you about the fact that these people were singled out based on their race and the planning and forethought that went into it. To conceive of those camps... just unimaginable to anyone else.  I just don't think you have understood the lessons of the nazi regime.  Industrialised killing of people was only a thing under them.

 

That is the problem with trying to have a discussion with an ignorant dolt. They don't know, yet they are certain. Here's a few:

 

Ottoman's systematically killed every Armenian they could in the early 1900s for being Armenian.

Soviets deliberately started to death millions of Ukrainians in the 30s.

Khmers targeted every minority and everyone who didn't agree with the communist ideology in the late 70s.

Iraqis either killed every Kurd they could find or sent them to concentration camps, where those able to work were forced to do so. This was in late 80s. 

The majority of Tutsis were killed in Rwanda by Hutus in the 90s. The plan was to kill them all.

View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

Anyway I'm done with this.  I'm trying to explain to someone who doesn't even posses the facts.  I ahve better things to do.

Thank you. Your input to this conversation hasn't been worth much. Lets see if your word is.

 



jabster #170 Posted 11 August 2018 - 08:25 AM

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View Postduijm, on 10 August 2018 - 07:06 PM, said:

 

Blaming all on Germany too is easy (The Death of Democracy: Hitler's Rise to Power and the Downfall of the Weimar Republic ....nice to read) . And it is not like the Poles were free after the war. Or the Allies helped Finland when it got attacked....or the baltic states.  Oh or all British colonies were people were conquered and were not free. ....also cost lives. Usa and the Indians. So all coutries have stuff to be ashamed off. 

 

And so back to my question.....ban only nazi logo's?  I dont have a problem with it in game. Nor do I have with statue of Lenin etc.

 

Where did I blame it all on Germany, I didn’t did I?



Steiner011 #171 Posted 11 August 2018 - 08:42 AM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 09 August 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

 

 

Nice political discussion you opened here , you knew EXACTLY what will happen , calculated promoting of fascism under a pretext of historical accuracy.

 

I wont be replying to this thread anymore from this point.


Edited by Steiner011, 11 August 2018 - 08:42 AM.


Karasu_Hidesuke #172 Posted 11 August 2018 - 11:21 AM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

 

My points rely on my knowledge of what the nazis actually did, particularly this.  At least you know now why I believe they were the worst.

 

I can definitely see and agree with your point of view. There are three relevant things when it comes to the holocaust, industrial scale, ideological intent and total moral bankcruptcy.

 

View PostEvilier_than_Skeletor, on 10 August 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

That is the problem with trying to have a discussion with an ignorant dolt. They don't know, yet they are certain. Here's a few:

 

Ottoman's systematically killed every Armenian they could in the early 1900s for being Armenian.

Soviets deliberately started to death millions of Ukrainians in the 30s.

Khmers targeted every minority and everyone who didn't agree with the communist ideology in the late 70s.

Iraqis either killed every Kurd they could find or sent them to concentration camps, where those able to work were forced to do so. This was in late 80s. 

The majority of Tutsis were killed in Rwanda by Hutus in the 90s. The plan was to kill them all.

Thank you. Your input to this conversation hasn't been worth much. Lets see if your word is.

 

 

Then again, these are also very valid points.

 

View PostSteiner011, on 11 August 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

 

Nice political discussion you opened here , you knew EXACTLY what will happen , calculated promoting of fascism under a pretext of historical accuracy.

 

I wont be replying to this thread anymore from this point.

 

Realistically, based on how past threads have developed it always ends up like that. The same thing also happens on the WoWS forum but perhaps the discussion there is slightly more toned down than what it usually is on WoT forums. The actual idea was to to bring this matter up (perhaps unwisely) and discuss if people would actually like to see WG at least trying to introduce historically authentic visual components in the game. For WoT, this would mostly mean the correct tech tree flag as German tanks used the traditional Balkenkreuz and not the swastika. For WoWP and WoWS it is more relevant, many would like to see at least the correct Imperial ensign displayed in WoWS (also the Imperial JApanese ensign is missing from the game.)

 

Not having the historically correct emblems in the game does not in any way change what happened in the past. Sanitizing history in any way is IMHO a disservice for the pursuit of historical accuracy and truth.

 

For the most part, the discussion seems to turn into a tug of war between those who hate the Nazis more and those who hate the Soviets more. The Japanese, Chinese, Americans etc are usually relegated to playing support parts in this. One thing to consider is that the massive deaths (typically famines/epidemics) caused by the old Empires during the colonial era were often due to exploitation rather than deliberate policies pursuing what we might call 'ethnic cleansing' or, more honestly, genocides. The new totalitarian regimes generally tend to be more deliberate about this and for them, genocides are more often the objective rather than the by-result of their terror policies.

 

One thing that occurred to me is that many people will think the Soviets are worse simply because there is less time since the fall of the Soviet Union. Many people still have first or second hand knowledge of what it was like to live under the Soviet yolk. It is, for them at least, more relevant than what happened over 70 years ago.


Edited by Browarszky, 11 August 2018 - 11:24 AM.


arthurwellsley #173 Posted 12 August 2018 - 08:51 AM

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View PostEvilier_than_Skeletor, on 10 August 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

That is the problem with trying to have a discussion with an ignorant dolt. They don't know, yet they are certain. Here's a few:

 

Ottoman's systematically killed every Armenian they could in the early 1900s for being Armenian.

Soviets deliberately started to death millions of Ukrainians in the 30s.

Khmers targeted every minority and everyone who didn't agree with the communist ideology in the late 70s.

Iraqis either killed every Kurd they could find or sent them to concentration camps, where those able to work were forced to do so. This was in late 80s. 

The majority of Tutsis were killed in Rwanda by Hutus in the 90s. The plan was to kill them all.

Thank you. Your input to this conversation hasn't been worth much. Lets see if your word is.

 

 

Although clearly over a period of time the Ottoman's, Soviets, Khymer Rouge, Iraqi Baathists, and Tutsi kill large numbers of innocents. Arguably there are other regimes in other countries that also mass murder innocents as well during the course of history which are missed off your list. None of them do what the Nazi's did.

 

The Nazi's built industrial murder facilities to speed mass murder into a factory process so as to kill more humans faster. This is why they are different from all others. The efficiency of the mass murder machine, makes the speed and scale of their mass murdering different from all other regimes.


Edited by arthurwellsley, 12 August 2018 - 08:52 AM.


Karasu_Hidesuke #174 Posted 12 August 2018 - 12:39 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 12 August 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

 

Although clearly over a period of time the Ottoman's, Soviets, Khymer Rouge, Iraqi Baathists, and Tutsi kill large numbers of innocents. Arguably there are other regimes in other countries that also mass murder innocents as well during the course of history which are missed off your list. None of them do what the Nazi's did.

 

The Nazi's built industrial murder facilities to speed mass murder into a factory process so as to kill more humans faster. This is why they are different from all others. The efficiency of the mass murder machine, makes the speed and scale of their mass murdering different from all other regimes.

 

BTW the Ottomans received some help from their German friends who seemed a little too enthusiastic about it. Actually a lot of what the Nazis did was something that didn't just come out of some moral vacuum but they had a solid foundation of anti-semitism and racist attitudes to build on. That applied to not just Germany or Austria, but was to be found in other countries as well, also in the USA (to balance it out, let's not forget about Russia either). It seems that something in Germany acted as a catalyst to bring forward what looks like an anomaly against the background of European cultural history but on closer look seems to be a logical continuation in light of what we know of the darker passages of European and world history.

 

 


Edited by Browarszky, 12 August 2018 - 12:42 PM.


pathed91 #175 Posted 12 August 2018 - 01:10 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

 

My points rely on my knowledge of what the nazis actually did, particularly this.  At least you know now why I believe they were the worst.

 

I knew why you believed them to be the worst scum in history, I questioned your reasoning with someone cosplaying as a german soldier in a historical reanactment is nothing but a wannabe nazi. I'm starting to think you actually haven't listened to what I have been saying.

 

And that tripe about me not learning from history, the national socialists and the communists where fighting in the streets before Hitler rose to power and now we see Antifa and the far-right fighting in the streets again. That is what I'm worried about, the political extremes pushing people from the centre because of a increasingly polerising political climate.

 

If not falling to some ideoligy induced fervor and staying a centrist makes me uneducated, then there really is no point in discussing it with you further.



Hedgehog1963 #176 Posted 12 August 2018 - 01:48 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 12 August 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

 

I knew why you believed them to be the worst scum in history, I questioned your reasoning with someone cosplaying as a german soldier in a historical reanactment is nothing but a wannabe nazi. I'm starting to think you actually haven't listened to what I have been saying.

 

And that tripe about me not learning from history, the national socialists and the communists where fighting in the streets before Hitler rose to power and now we see Antifa and the far-right fighting in the streets again. That is what I'm worried about, the political extremes pushing people from the centre because of a increasingly polerising political climate.

 

If not falling to some ideoligy induced fervor and staying a centrist makes me uneducated, then there really is no point in discussing it with you further.


You didn't know because you admitted you were unaware of the process at Auschwitz.  You were arguing from a point of ignorance.

 

I stand by my statement about nazi cosplay. 



pathed91 #177 Posted 12 August 2018 - 02:13 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 12 August 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:


You didn't know because you admitted you were unaware of the process at Auschwitz.  You were arguing from a point of ignorance.

 

I stand by my statement about nazi cosplay. 

 

I thought that the majority of inmates was used as slave labour until they collapsed, then dragged to the gas chambers. I admitted to being wrong about the numbers that were gased when arriving when you corrected me. Everybody knows what the nazis did, it's practically the only thing the schools system teaches students about the secound world war in my country.

 

You have been arguing in bad faith the entire time, like when Duijim mixed up the words "millions" and "billions". It was obvious that it was a misstake but you tried to get some cheap points from it.



Hedgehog1963 #178 Posted 12 August 2018 - 02:17 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 12 August 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

 

I thought that the majority of inmates was used as slave labour until they collapsed, then dragged to the gas chambers. I admitted to being wrong about the numbers that were gased when arriving when you corrected me. Everybody knows what the nazis did, it's practically the only thing the schools system teaches students about the secound world war in my country.

 

You have been arguing in bad faith the entire time, like when Duijim mixed up the words "millions" and "billions". It was obvious that it was a misstake but you tried to get some cheap points from it.

 

Well your schools aren't doing a good enough job.  Perhaps the nazi cosplayers exist in a condition of similar ignorance.  One might almost hope so.

 

That process of murdering people en masse straight off the train was the very crux of my argument, not just a cheap point.  It was a point I relied on assuming you knew about it.  You didn't and that's perhaps why you focused so much on the cattle trucks.

 

As for that Dutch guy, he was wrong about a lot more than billions of Germans being killed.    Highlighting that was just highlighting how far from the mark he was.  And he never retracted it and continued to say it.  But no, paint me as the villain.

 

 


Edited by Hedgehog1963, 12 August 2018 - 02:21 PM.


Karasu_Hidesuke #179 Posted 12 August 2018 - 02:20 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 12 August 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

 

Well your schools aren't doing a good enough job.  Perhaps the nazi cosplayers exist in a condition of similar ignorance.

 

That process of murdering people en masse straight off the train was the crux of my argument, not just a cheap point. As for that Dutch guy, he was wrong about a lot more than billions of Germans being killed.

 

 

 

One thing that I haven't been able to figure out, why transport people en masse just to get them killed? I think it's a known fact that transport capacity that was used would have been more useful for transport of troops and war supplies, for one thing. It makes little sense in logistical terms.

pathed91 #180 Posted 12 August 2018 - 02:24 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 12 August 2018 - 02:17 PM, said:

 

Well your schools aren't doing a good enough job.  Perhaps the nazi cosplayers exist in a condition of similar ignorance.

 

That process of murdering people en masse straight off the train was the crux of my argument, not just a cheap point. As for that Dutch guy, he was wrong about a lot more than billions of Germans being killed.

 

 

 

You still used that as a way to score cheap points in the discussion.

 

We aren't getting anywhere in the debate about the holocaust, so I suggest we move back to the topic about the cosplay. Where whould you draw the line that someone would line up with the nazis just by cosplaying as a german soldier?

Take WoT for example, the Tiger might be a symbol of the fascist army that ravaged their country so would that make anyone playing the Tiger as bad as the cosplayers?

 

At the beggining of the thread someone made the point that it's different with nazi markings in multiplayer than singleplayer, because in singleplayer no one plays as the nazis. If you play a strategy game and play as the germans, would that count as being a wannabe nazi? 







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