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The USK will allow mustache and swastikas in Wolfenstein

USK mustache swastika games art

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Steiner011 #21 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:19 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 10 August 2018 - 09:08 AM, said:

You are playing a war game and you have a (fictional?) member of the German military as your avatar and even in your name. That's called hypocrisy. 

 

Not showing symbols and other iconic things of the past anymore won't revive the victims  and games that glorify those things will definitely NOT get the ok of the USK, so I don't see the problem.

 

First of all , german army =/= nazi party.   

 

Second , if you have seen the movie , AND YOU DIDNT , you would have noticed the heavy criticism of nazi regime , german military conquests and war in general.

 

No hypocrisy here at my side. Make sure to watch the movie before you hastly judge.

 

Here , ill give you additional info.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074695/

 

 

 



CmdRatScabies #22 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:23 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 10 August 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

 

What? People wanting to maintain their culture, values and country are now fascists? Really dude?

 

Quite often they are, and maintaining culture & values is a front for small minded bigots (to quote Gordon Brown :)).

 

However, it's now 70 years ago, let it rest, it's history.

I think the point is not to let it be forgotten and thus make it less likely to be repeated.



malachi6 #23 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:25 AM

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German tanks did not predominately carry nationalist symbology anyway.  The Luftwaffe however, was founded by the Nazi's. Thus, would be more affected by German attitude changes.

Steiner011 #24 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:31 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 10 August 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

 

What? People wanting to maintain their culture, values and country are now fascists? Really dude?

 

As for family members, no I didn't lose them but they were still put on trains. However, it's now 70 years ago, let it rest, it's history.

It's fine in works of art, it becomes a problem when you start to walk under the same banner again, until then depiction of anything should not be a problem.

 

Cobra 6

 

So fascism is a culture now? Please do tell us what are fascism values.  

 

Also , problem doesnt start when ppl walk under the same banner , it starts MUCH sooner , with propositions like this.  

 

How many countries are celebrating victory day over fascism? Less and less every year. That means that those countries are ok with fascism , and thats where problem lies.



Jigabachi #25 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:37 AM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

First of all , german army =/= nazi party.   

While that is true, it's still a bad excuse. The military got its commands from... whom?

And did they fight against the nazis?

Not being nazis doesn't mean that they are innocent.

 

Block Quote

 Second , if you have seen the movie , AND YOU DIDNT , you would have noticed the heavy criticism of nazi regime , german military conquests and war in general.

The internet says that it's a successful yet pretty bland and superficial western-like  warmovie. Not an anti-warmovie.

 

And what about this game we all play?

 

 

 



Cobra6 #26 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:43 AM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

 

So fascism is a culture now? Please do tell us what are fascism values.  

 

Also , problem doesnt start when ppl walk under the same banner , it starts MUCH sooner , with propositions like this.  

 

How many countries are celebrating victory day over fascism? Less and less every year. That means that those countries are ok with fascism , and thats where problem lies.

 

I honestly think you have a problem comprehending what is being written judging by your replies.

You started about countries moving towards the "new fascism" as you call it so I imagine you mean the ever growing opposition to unlimited immigration and the dilution of national identity that is happening especially in Europe. That is not fascism, that is just a logical conclusion of people having stuff forced on them they never asked for.

Hence my reply. Just labeling something as fascism in a cheap attempt to disqualify any argument does not work in the normal world.

 

As for victory over fascism, don't know where you live but in the Netherlands we have two remembrance days for that and they are really quite "popular"....

 

Cobra 6

 

 



hoveruss #27 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:45 AM

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I can't understand why authorities are so scared of us seeing a swastika. I've seen loads and never felt any need to start a holocaust or invade Poland. If we're wise, we should learn from history, not tear down statues, edit history books and criminalise mentioning or mocking Nazi's (only Nazi's mind - Stalin was okay, even tho his 'tally' far exceeded Adolfs.) I'm guessing allowing swastikas in a computer game won't radicalise too many spotty German youths, or lead to a new Hitlerjugend.

Steiner011 #28 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:47 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 10 August 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

 

The internet says that it's a successful yet pretty bland and superficial western-like  warmovie. Not an anti-warmovie.

 

 

So , you didnt watch the movie. You have read someones opinion from internet. 

 

If i wanted to form an opinion , i would watch the movie myself, and take liberty to form an opinion based on own observation.

 

 

Anyway , mods could close this topic , its not leading anywhere. 


Edited by Steiner011, 10 August 2018 - 10:49 AM.


Cobra6 #29 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:49 AM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

 

Anyway , mods could close this topic , its not leading nowhere. 

 

So just because multiple people disagree with you we can close the topic?

 

I'm starting to get a pretty accurate picture of what group of people you most likely identify with :teethhappy:

 

Cobra 6



jabster #30 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:53 AM

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Well that escalated quickly. Do carry on.

Hedgehog1963 #31 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:53 AM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 09:19 AM, said:

 

First of all , german army =/= nazi party.   

 

Second , if you have seen the movie , AND YOU DIDNT , you would have noticed the heavy criticism of nazi regime , german military conquests and war in general.

 

No hypocrisy here at my side. Make sure to watch the movie before you hastly judge.

 

Here , ill give you additional info.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074695/

 

 

 

German army was the nazi's army in WWII.  That's why there were swastikas on the uniforms.



Steiner011 #32 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:54 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 10 August 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

 

So just because multiple people disagree with you we can close the topic?

 

I'm starting to get a pretty accurate picture of what group of people you most likely identify with :teethhappy:

 

Cobra 6

 

I dont think you have an idea of who i most likely identify with , but i can come to RGT teamspeak so we can have a chat about this, if u want. I can even ask Brko when you will be on TS.

 

As for proposed  symbols ingame , how is that related to gameplay? Will it solve sound bug , ghost shells , broken chat and contact list , WG lack of balance of vehicles  etc etc?


Edited by Steiner011, 10 August 2018 - 10:55 AM.


Cobra6 #33 Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:58 AM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

 

I dont think you have an idea of who i most likely identify with , but i can come to RGT teamspeak so we can have a chat about this, if u want. I can even ask Brko when you will be on TS.

 

As for proposed  symbols ingame , how is that related to gameplay? Will it solve sound bug , ghost shells , broken chat and contact list , WG lack of balance of vehicles  etc etc?

 

Lol, the "I'm friends with your clan commander" excuse, classy dude, classy.

 

Well, since you seem to like to disqualify people in an argument by pulling the fascism card or trying to shut down discussion completely, the group you identify with seems to be quite obvious and is usually located on the far left spectrum yet called different names in each country.

 

As for proposed symbols, what does some visual authenticity have to do with gameplay balancing?

 

Cobra 6



Karasu_Hidesuke #34 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:13 AM

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:ohmy:... what have I done! I gone and opened Pandora's box, it seems, just when trying to bring up the question of historical accuracy.

 

View PostGeno1isme, on 10 August 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

 

Nope. Look at the reasoning why they allowed it for Wolfenstein:

- "Through the change in the interpretation of the law, games that critically look at current affairs can, for the first time, be given an age rating by the USK" - We don't have any narrative in WoT at all.

- From now on, USK judges will decide if content has "an artistic or scientific purpose, or helps to depict current or historical events." - None of that applies to WoT.

 

Well, that is true, so it might never work. On the other hand, WoT does incorporate some historical factors like the 'ongoing' Battle of Kursk. But I grant you that mostly WoT is all about entertainment. I would, however, also claim that entertainment rather than history lessons is the prime reason why people play Wolfenstein. Or watch movies, for that matter, with the sole exception of documentaries.

 

As has been pointed out, the swastika would not normally be displayed on German tanks. It is, however, still relevant for WG games. It was used on the planes and in the KM ensign, so it would have significance for those respective WG titles. Also in WoT, there is the question of the Finnish tank markings prior to fall of 1944.

 

The Wehrmacht, like most armies in the civilized part of the world (or 'civilized' if you prefer), was supposed to be outside of politics. But this thread is not meant to be a discussion of that, we are not supposed to discuss politics here, not sure how much we are allowed to bring up what is not actually politics any more but past events and historical developments.



Steiner011 #35 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:14 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 10 August 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

 

Well, since you seem to like to disqualify people in an argument by pulling the fascism card or trying to shut down discussion completely, the group you identify with seems to be quite obvious and is usually located on the far left spectrum yet called different names in each country.

 

As for proposed symbols, what does some visual authenticity have to do with gameplay balancing?

 

Cobra 6

 

Ppl can have 35 pages of discussion as long as im concerned , it wont lead anywhere.

 

And , what does some visual authencity have to do with gameplay?  Should this better be off in off-topic? I mean , were not discussing game core mechanic , vehicle balancing ... 

 

Also , as I said before , you have no idea of who or what I identify with , but please do continue to try to label me , based on my small pool of opinions and comments.


Edited by Steiner011, 10 August 2018 - 11:15 AM.


Karasu_Hidesuke #36 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:18 AM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

 

 

And , what does some visual authencity have to do with gameplay?  Should this better be off in off-topic? I mean , were not discussing game core mechanic , vehicle balancing ... 

 

 

 

Well.. it affects gameplay via willing suspension of disbelief/immersion or lack of thereof.. but it's true it's not a core mechanic or a balancing issue, I'm not sure it is entirely off-topic either if we are discussing how historical accuracy should be handled in terms of visuals in the game itself.

 

I know the game isn't a realistic portrayal of WW2 or any other period tank battles. But I'm just pointing out I and maybe some others start to cringe when we see something that is blatantly wrong in terms of how it looks. Admittedly, the problem is a lot bigger in WoWS than it is in WoT, thankfully.


Edited by Browarszky, 10 August 2018 - 11:20 AM.


duijm #37 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:26 AM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

Many of you didnt lose a family member to nazi war crime machine , so you have no idea what are you proposing.

 

But since a good portion of world countries is moving towards new fascism , it doesnt surprise me to see these kind of propositions here.

 

And how about Russian warcrimes, Allied warcrimes etc

Symbols of those nation are not a problem?



Dorander #38 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:26 AM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

:ohmy:... what have I done! I gone and opened Pandora's box, it seems, just when trying to bring up the question of historical accuracy.

 

 

You started a discussion about displaying Nazi symbols on the Internet, what exactly did you expect?

 

View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

 

How many countries are celebrating victory day over fascism? Less and less every year. That means that those countries are ok with fascism , and thats where problem lies.

 

Sorry but there's no way you can draw that conclusion. I don't care much for the remembrance days for WWII my country has, I frequently forget about them. I don't forget about the concepts, I forget about the nationally determined moments when I'm supposed to be doing something, which I then subsequently don't. That does not mean I'm okay with facism, far from it, but I am okay with opting out of rituals.

 

While the World Wars were remarkable because of their sheer scope and consequentially death tally, the history of any nation is marked with significant events (of which many were bloody), some of which are remembered but many which are not. The simple reason for that is that as time passes, generations grow up for whom these events have no significance as they do not feel their direct effects anymore. My grandparents lived through WWII, but my grandparents are all deceased. My parents and their siblings were young children, they mostly talk about what life was like after. I can't imagine what it must have been like to live through the war, I can only hear stories, so it can't possibly have the impact on me, and thus impart the importance on me, that it did on my grandparents.

 

The best I can do is use my brain, look at what went wrong and why at various moments in history, and try to not make the same mistake. I don't need national ritualistic observance days for that, I need knowledge. Luckily we're taught history in high school, the rest is books, the Internet, maybe a museum.



Steiner011 #39 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:28 AM

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View PostDorander, on 10 August 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

 

Sorry but there's no way you can draw that conclusion. I don't care much for the remembrance days for WWII my country has, I frequently forget about them. I don't forget about the concepts, I forget about the nationally determined moments when I'm supposed to be doing something, which I then subsequently don't. That does not mean I'm okay with fascism, far from it, but I am okay with opting out of rituals.

 

While the World Wars were remarkable because of their sheer scope and consequentially death tally, the history of any nation is marked with significant events (of which many were bloody), some of which are remembered but many which are not. The simple reason for that is that as time passes, generations grow up for whom these events have no significance as they do not feel their direct effects anymore. My grandparents lived through WWII, but my grandparents are all deceased. My parents and their siblings were young children, they mostly talk about what life was like after. I can't imagine what it must have been like to live through the war, I can only hear stories, so it can't possibly have the impact on me, and thus impart the importance on me, that it did on my grandparents.

 

The best I can do is use my brain, look at what went wrong and why at various moments in history, and try to not make the same mistake. I don't need national ritualistic observance days for that, I need knowledge. Luckily we're taught history in high school, the rest is books, the Internet, maybe a museum.

 

Well said. 

Edited by Steiner011, 10 August 2018 - 11:29 AM.


duijm #40 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:29 AM

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View Postmalachi6, on 10 August 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

German tanks did not predominately carry nationalist symbology anyway.  The Luftwaffe however, was founded by the Nazi's. Thus, would be more affected by German attitude changes.

 

Correct but maybe it will be allowed now to use divisional symbols on the tanks?  





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