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The USK will allow mustache and swastikas in Wolfenstein

USK mustache swastika games art

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jabster #41 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:40 AM

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View Postduijm, on 10 August 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

 

Correct but maybe it will be allowed now to use divisional symbols on the tanks?  

 

I’m no expert on German law but I believed that it was only certain divisional symbols that would be problematic? 

Geno1isme #42 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:42 AM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

Well, that is true, so it might never work. On the other hand, WoT does incorporate some historical factors like the 'ongoing' Battle of Kursk. But I grant you that mostly WoT is all about entertainment. I would, however, also claim that entertainment rather than history lessons is the prime reason why people play Wolfenstein. Or watch movies, for that matter, with the sole exception of documentaries.

 

Sure, but that's not the point. The reason why Nazi symbols are generally outlawed in Germany is so they cannot be used to promote fascism. Movies and now games showing them like Iron Sky or Inglorious Bastards are usually not favoring Nazi Germany, that's why they are allowed there. As WoT doesn't have any narrative it would be up to players to make up their own stories, which doesn't fly well with German legislation in that area.

 

Another aspect is the target audience: Wolfenstein has a different age rating than World of Tanks, targeting adults while WoT is also targeted at teens. Which plays a massive role for the USK, as teens are far more susceptible for subconcious manipulation. And WG certainly won't change the age rating just to include a few symbols.



Comrade_Renamon #43 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:47 AM

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View Postduijm, on 10 August 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

 

And how about Russian warcrimes, Allied warcrimes etc

Symbols of those nation are not a problem?

 

Russian ones are often cited (and the Hammer and Sickle is banned in most East EU countries, the red star is not anymore afaik). Strangely the USA doing almost the same with the Japanese residents of the American continent like what the Nazis did with the Jewish is forgotten and "fine".

 

Don't think this will change too much for WG, as it is mentioned it is a case to case basis and they are not too keen on doing such on their own anyway. Censoring them never really helped in my opinion.



pathed91 #44 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:52 AM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

 

Ppl can have 35 pages of discussion as long as im concerned , it wont lead anywhere.

 

If the reasoning that "if a discussion doesn't lead anywhere we can nuke the thread", WG could use that excuse to close down the entire forum, because almost nothing said here leads to any change of the state of the game. Has it occured to you that even if the thread doesn't lead anywhere people could still enjoy discussing the issue?

 

And about the whole "think if the ones that lost family in the holocaust" thing, freedom of speach & freedom of expression is a fundamental principel that's way more important than anyones feelings. The same reasoning could be used to silence anyone for being too offensive.

 

Personally I think that if we allow the nazis to propogate their "hate speak" (a term that is defined so loosely that it could mean anything), we can all rest assured that our speak is also protected.

 

TLDR: Banning opinions is bad, because it could happen to you too. 



arthurwellsley #45 Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:57 AM

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View PostComrade_Renamon, on 10 August 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

 Strangely the USA doing almost the same with the Japanese residents of the American continent like what the Nazis did with the Jewish is forgotten and "fine".

 

 

NO

Your statement is Holocaust denial.

The USA interned people of Japanese background.

The Nazi's set out to murder systematically millions of Jews.

There is no comparison whatsoever.

Historically you are utterly wrong.


Edited by arthurwellsley, 10 August 2018 - 11:58 AM.


Karasu_Hidesuke #46 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:12 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 10 August 2018 - 10:57 AM, said:

 

NO

Your statement is Holocaust denial.

The USA interned people of Japanese background.

The Nazi's set out to murder systematically millions of Jews.

There is no comparison whatsoever.

Historically you are utterly wrong.

 

It's all relative. For some people the US flag is much more hated simply because the multitude of crimes committed by the USA are much more relevant to them. Yet, we see US flag and symbols everywhere, the question then is why is a certain set of symbols singled out among many others who in the past or present have implicated themselves in a range of illegalities ranging from various degrees of civil rights violations to war crimes and outright genocide.

CmdRatScabies #47 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:17 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 12:12 PM, said:

 

the question then is why is a certain set of symbols singled out among many others who in the past or present have implicated themselves in a range of illegalities ranging from various degrees of civil rights violations to war crimes and outright genocide.

 

Genocide on a scale we never seen before or since may have something to do with it.  Just a hunch.

Cobra6 #48 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:22 PM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

 

Ppl can have 35 pages of discussion as long as im concerned , it wont lead anywhere.

 

And , what does some visual authencity have to do with gameplay?  Should this better be off in off-topic? I mean , were not discussing game core mechanic , vehicle balancing ... 

 

Also , as I said before , you have no idea of who or what I identify with , but please do continue to try to label me , based on my small pool of opinions and comments.

 

Good story, great start, tense ending and a solid middle, send to the printer :coin:

 

Cobra 6



Bordhaw #49 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:24 PM

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View Postjabster, on 10 August 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

 

I’m no expert on German law but I believed that it was only certain divisional symbols that would be problematic? 

 

German criminal code doesnt ban individual symbols it's more to do with how that symbol (including flags etc) is used. Whilst not a list there are certain symbols that do come under this law of Article 86a Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations. Usually anything not covered under that ban comes under Section 130 & 130a Agitation of the People...

 

The USK took over from the BPjM for example indexing PC games. They refused to rate them so indirectly banning them. As PC games do not come under "art" before the 9th August 2018 now they can be not banned if they satisfy the "social adequacy" allowance. 


Edited by Bordhaw, 10 August 2018 - 12:31 PM.


pathed91 #50 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:24 PM

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View PostCmdRatScabies, on 10 August 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

 

Genocide on a scale we never seen before or since may have something to do with it.  Just a hunch.

 

Communism doesn't even need to commit genocide to kill millions, just look at China with the great leap forward.

https://en.wikipedia...at_Leap_Forward

 

The Armenian genocide by the Ottomans killed somewhere around 1-1.5 millions, depending on the source.

https://en.wikipedia...menian_Genocide

 

Face it, the nazis are not the only mass murderers in history.



arthurwellsley #51 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:25 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

 

It's all relative.

 

No it is not.

In the USA 110,000 Japanese Americans were interned. Six were unlawfully killed, 1,862 died of natural causes during the internment, and the internment camp hospitals saw the successful live birth of 6,000 deliveries during internment, so in fact due to the birth rate more Japanese Americans were released than were originally interned.

 

The Nazi's mudered 6 million jews.

 

It is not the slightest bit relative.



Karasu_Hidesuke #52 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:25 PM

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View PostCmdRatScabies, on 10 August 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

 

Genocide on a scale we never seen before or since may have something to do with it.  Just a hunch.

 

Perhaps not just the scale in terms of numbers, others have exceeded that.. but maybe the methodical approach has more to do with it. I admit that they turned genocide into a whole industry which can be seen as something even worse than Wounded Knee, Executive order 9066, Prussian Nights, or even the Gulag Archipelago.

 

Still, the symbols have never bothered anyone outside of Germany/Austria, so while condemning the criminal aspects of their ideology, I see little point in banning these symbols because it then calls for an uncomfortable value judgement when we are needed to define what level of evil we consider acceptable and what not, IMO.



Karasu_Hidesuke #53 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:28 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 10 August 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

 

No it is not.

In the USA 110,000 Japanese Americans were interned. Six were unlawfully killed, 1,862 died of natural causes during the internment, and the internment camp hospitals saw the successful live birth of 6,000 deliveries during internment, so in fact due to the birth rate more Japanese Americans were released than were originally interned.

 

The Nazi's mudered 6 million jews.

 

It is not the slightest bit relative.

 

It is, if you are one of those deprived of your civil rights and interned in one of those camps, any camps for that matter. (Or if you are fleeing the US Cavalry for your life, gunned down and hacked to pieces by their sabers.) If they can freely do that to you, there is a very fine line keeping them from doing just what the Nazis did.

 

In this connection, it might be good not to forget to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (While also acknowledging the crimes that the Japanese forces had committed in Asia before and during WW2).


Edited by Browarszky, 10 August 2018 - 12:31 PM.


pathed91 #54 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:32 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 10 August 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

 

No it is not.

In the USA 110,000 Japanese Americans were interned. Six were unlawfully killed, 1,862 died of natural causes during the internment, and the internment camp hospitals saw the successful live birth of 6,000 deliveries during internment, so in fact due to the birth rate more Japanese Americans were released than were originally interned.

 

The Nazi's mudered 6 million jews.

 

It is not the slightest bit relative.

 

How come it's always the jews murdered in the holocaust that get remembered? I have read that the total death toll is around 11-17 millions, but it's always the 6 million jews that get mentioned.

Just something I think is weird...



CmdRatScabies #55 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:34 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

 

Still, the symbols have never bothered anyone outside of Germany/Austria, so while condemning the criminal aspects of their ideology, I see little point in banning these symbols because it then calls for an uncomfortable value judgement when we are needed to define what level of evil we consider acceptable and what not, IMO.

 

As far as I know they are banned in Germany/Austria in an attempt to suppress & eradicate those elements that still exist within those countries that find the ideology attractive.  Understandable given the damage they did and how recent it was.

jabster #56 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:35 PM

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View PostBordhaw, on 10 August 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

 

German criminal code doesnt ban individual symbols it's more to do with how that symbol (including flags etc) is used. Whilst not a list there are certain symbols that do come under this law of Article 86a Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations. Usually anything not covered under that ban comes under Section 130 & 130a Agitation of the People...

 

The USK took over from the BPjM for example indexing PC games. They refused to rate them so indirectly banning them. As PC games do not come under "art" before the 9th August 2018 now they can be not banned if they satisfy the "social adequacy" allowance. 

 

Oh yeh I understand that it was more that say divisional symbols for SS divisions would be the problematic ones not all of them.



StuffKnight #57 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:35 PM

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Does this mean the Germans will now get a historical T-34/76 premium with Finnish markings?

jabster #58 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:36 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

 

It is, if you are one of those deprived of your civil rights and interned in one of those camps, any camps for that matter. (Or if you are fleeing the US Cavalry for your life, gunned down and hacked to pieces by their sabers.) If they can freely do that to you, there is a very fine line keeping them from doing just what the Nazis did.

 

In this connection, it might be good not to forget to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (While also acknowledging the crimes that the Japanese forces had committed in Asia before and during WW2).

 

But the US didn’t systematically murder interned Japanese civilians did they?

Karasu_Hidesuke #59 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:37 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 11:32 AM, said:

 

How come it's always the jews murdered in the holocaust that get remembered? I have read that the total death toll is around 11-17 millions, but it's always the 6 million jews that get mentioned.

Just something I think is weird...

 

At least Wikipedia refers to all the victims of Nazi terror as Holocaust victims. The Jews form the largest single group they targeted though the total number of estimated victims far exceeds 6 million.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims



lotusblossom #60 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:42 PM

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I suspect the Jews are mentioned the most because they are the most vocal and organised. Also possibly peoples bias may get in the way when considering the extermination of homosexuals and people with disabilities. The largest group could consist of Russians and Slavs but they were considered the 'enemy' of the West during the cold war and therefore not considered as worth mentioning. 





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