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The USK will allow mustache and swastikas in Wolfenstein

USK mustache swastika games art

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Karasu_Hidesuke #61 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:42 PM

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View Postjabster, on 10 August 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

 

But the US didn’t systematically murder interned Japanese civilians did they?

 

No. But their civil rights were grossly violated. There is nothing new about camps and how people and the potential for people to drop off like flies under harsh conditions. Like I pointed out, the USA made a calculated decision to drop two atomic bombs on Japanese civilians, though. They have the distinction of being the only nation so far to have used nukes as a weapon, so far at least.

 

View Postlotusblossom, on 10 August 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

I suspect the Jews are mentioned the most because they are the most vocal and organised. Also possibly peoples bias may get in the way when considering the extermination of homosexuals and people with disabilities. The largest group could consist of Russians and Slavs but they were considered the 'enemy' of the West during the cold war and therefore not considered as worth mentioning. 

 

You are probably not too far from the truth, I'd say. Also, you have to remember that many other countries have had a long history of antisemitism so this is a factor in the post-WW2 world as well.

 

Though..

 

As OP I think the thread is interesting but perhaps somewhat problematic (again) which seems to be a trend when certain symbols and related historical events get mentioned...


Edited by Browarszky, 10 August 2018 - 12:45 PM.


jabster #62 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:53 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

 

No. But their civil rights were grossly violated.

 

 

But that’s hardly a fine dividing line is it?



arthurwellsley #63 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:54 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 10 August 2018 - 11:32 AM, said:

 

How come it's always the jews murdered in the holocaust that get remembered? I have read that the total death toll is around 11-17 millions, but it's always the 6 million jews that get mentioned.

Just something I think is weird...

 

Largest group systematically destroyed on an industrial scale, and used as short hand for;

Poland lost 3 million jews and 3 million Poles chosen because they were religious leaders (Catholic and Orthodox church) or intelligensia for a total of 17% (3+3 = 6 million Poles) of the whole pre 1941 population

Ukranians - 3 million (nazi plans were to exterminate a further 10 million)

Romani - no truly accurate estimate for all the Nazi occupied territories, but perhaps as high as 1.5 million

The disabled  - The Nazi's first sterilised the disabled 375,000, and then later used that list to begin exterminating them (estimated 275,000 by the end of the war). The first model gas chambers were used to mass murder Germans with disabilities, and were the model later used on the jews

Homosexual German men - maybe 5,000 - 15,000 sent to concentration camps

Politicial opponents - sent to Dachau - no accurate numbers

Jehovah's Witnesses - 2,500 - 5,000

German Catholics - 2,720 Catholic priests sent to Dachau

German Freemasons - 80,000 - 200,000

 


Edited by arthurwellsley, 10 August 2018 - 06:00 PM.


adameitas #64 Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:57 PM

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View PostSteiner011, on 10 August 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

 

So fascism is a culture now? Please do tell us what are fascism values.  

 

Also , problem doesnt start when ppl walk under the same banner , it starts MUCH sooner , with propositions like this.  

 

How many countries are celebrating victory day over fascism? Less and less every year. That means that those countries are ok with fascism , and thats where problem lies.

 

you do know that for half Europe victory over Nazis meant 50 years of occupation? So you really think those countries should celebrate that day? And if they dont they are fascist?

Comrade_Renamon #65 Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:02 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

 

What?  Murdering them by the millions?

 

Get yourself educated you ignorant dolt.

 

They were taken from their homes from all over the American continent to concentration camps in the USA, their houses and wealth were sold to fuel the war effort.

They were to be traded for US PoWs or deported (Many was during the war). It was only recently that they managed to get Reparations for them from the American government (if I recall 2012). Living conditions were awful and after the war many did not get any compensation at all, a few thousand people were stranded cause they were not allowed back in the country that deported them to US request.

Just because it was not millions it is okay to expunge people from a country who lived there for a generation or two? I'm not excusing what the Nazis did to millions of people. But just overlooking atrocities like those because they were your country's allies is just as disgusting.


Edited by Comrade_Renamon, 10 August 2018 - 01:03 PM.


adameitas #66 Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:04 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 10 August 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

 

Largest group systematically destroyed on an industrial scale, and used as short hand for;

Poland lost 3 million jews and 3 million Poles chosen because they were religious leaders (Catholic and Orthodox church) or intelligensia for a total of 17% (3+3 = 6 million Poles) of the whole pre 1941 population

Ukranians - 3 million (nazi plans were to exterminate a further 10 million)

Romani - no truly accurate estimate for all the Nazi occupied territories, but perhaps as high as 1.5 million

The disabled  - The Nazi's first sterilised the diabled 375,000, and then later used that list to begin exterminating them (estimated 275,000 by the end of the war). The first model gas chambers were used to mass murder Germans with disabilities, and were the model later used on the jews

Homosexual German men - maybe 5,000 - 15,000 sent to concentration camps

Politicial opponents - sent to Dachau - no accurate numbers

Jehovah's Witnesses - 2,500 - 5,000

German Catholics - 2,720 Catholic priests sent to Dachau

German Freemasons - 80,000 - 200,000

 

 

did you check Soviet union numbers?

adameitas #67 Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:09 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 10 August 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

 

No it is not.

In the USA 110,000 Japanese Americans were interned. Six were unlawfully killed, 1,862 died of natural causes during the internment, and the internment camp hospitals saw the successful live birth of 6,000 deliveries during internment, so in fact due to the birth rate more Japanese Americans were released than were originally interned.

 

The Nazi's mudered 6 million jews.

 

It is not the slightest bit relative.

 

dont forget about atomic bombs and Germany cities bombing too. in general it is not ethical to name whos life is more "important". WWII was brutual war all sides did crimes it is all about who (what country) were those who did bad to you. In some cases it were nazi in other Soviet union, USA, France, Great Britain and so on. WWII showed humanity all possible dark sides of war. All what humanity needed to do not let to happen it again. Sadly but nowadays we see sights that that lesson might not be learnt. 

Edited by adameitas, 10 August 2018 - 01:10 PM.


Steiner011 #68 Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:12 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 10 August 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

 

Good story, great start, tense ending and a solid middle, send to the printer :coin:

 

Cobra 6

 

You see by comments at page 4 and beyond , someone will need a lot of paper :trollface:

unhappy_bunny #69 Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:17 PM

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Interesting turns this thread takes.

 

So a country at war with another (USA v Japan) takes steps to ensure that a section of its population that originates from its enemy's, is not left to cause problems inside that country (USA) by means of internment, is equated with another country's (Germany) policy of the internment of people of a certain religous background, whether living in that country or living in countries conquered by that country, and their subsequent slaughter? 

The UK did the same thing, during WW2, with people of Italian and German descent. We had internment camps in Isle of Man for instance. In fact my neighbour, when I was a child, was one of those caught up and sent to the IoM. 

 

In UK we still have Armistice/Rememberance day in November. I will observe the minutes silence out of respect, not because of the outcome of either the WWs, but to remember the enormous amount of wasted lives on all sides. We are also being bombarded with news items on the 100 anniversary of the individual battles of WW1. I dislike the jingoism that accompanies these items. How brave OUR boys were etc., as if there was no bravery amongst the enemy troops. 

 

As to symbols in a game. Wolfstein if I remember, was a single player fighting against a "nazi" enemy. It did not glorify the nazi regime. WoT is a different kettle of fish. To allow nazi, not German but nazi, symbols that were not the "norm" on German vehicles, would be opening the game to more abuse than it has already. We see, in the UK, groups start up that are "ultra right wing" and they have tried to rally support using nazi symbols. They get shut down pretty quick and exposed for what they are. Some re-emerge as "legitimate" political entities, and as long as they remain within the law they are tolerated. This may only be a computer game, but if players of a certain disposition, or players easily swayed by others, had free rein to use such symbols, the toxicity in this game could get way out of hand. 

 

Now incidents like Wounded Knee, while horrible, were most likely attributable to the local commander reacting in panic, rather than being the policy of the government. The Germans did a similar thing in France, when a German unit needed to retreat, the commander shot 25 Canadian prisoners of war, on the grounds that they would slow down his retreat. Examples could probably be found for any nation during war, of abuse of the enemy, military or civilian.

The whole founding of the USA however, as with many other nations, is built upon the conquest of indigenous people and their subjugation. Mostly influenced, directly or indirectly, by European Nations. The whole of history is filled with such incident. They are all abhorrent, none can be justified. Just look at the way Spain conquered South and Central America, or Britain took control of Australia and New Zealand, parts of Africa. 

 

Just my rambling thoughts on the matter. 

 

 



jabster #70 Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:24 PM

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View PostComrade_Renamon, on 10 August 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

 

They were taken from their homes from all over the American continent to concentration camps in the USA, their houses and wealth were sold to fuel the war effort.

They were to be traded for US PoWs or deported (Many was during the war). It was only recently that they managed to get Reparations for them from the American government (if I recall 2012). Living conditions were awful and after the war many did not get any compensation at all, a few thousand people were stranded cause they were not allowed back in the country that deported them to US request.

Just because it was not millions it is okay to expunge people from a country who lived there for a generation or two? I'm not excusing what the Nazis did to millions of people. But just overlooking atrocities like those because they were your country's allies is just as disgusting.

 

They didn’t try and dismiss them, they pointed out that you trying to equate them is rather ridiculous.

Edited by jabster, 10 August 2018 - 02:52 PM.


Comrade_Renamon #71 Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:38 PM

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View Postunhappy_bunny, on 10 August 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

So a country at war with another (USA v Japan) takes steps to ensure that a section of its population that originates from its enemy's, is not left to cause problems inside that country (USA) by means of internment, is equated with another country's (Germany) policy of the internment of people of a certain religous background, whether living in that country or living in countries conquered by that country, and their subsequent slaughter? 

 

You also forget to mention that they not only put them into concentration camps from only the USA, but rather aggressively got Japanese people deported from all around the American continent. The differences are: Scale and that they did not kill them (but ruined their lives indirectly or deported them to Japan).

 

But the topic has been derailed far too much already and I apologise for derailing it further.



Karasu_Hidesuke #72 Posted 10 August 2018 - 02:26 PM

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View PostComrade_Renamon, on 10 August 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

 

You also forget to mention that they not only put them into concentration camps from only the USA, but rather aggressively got Japanese people deported from all around the American continent. The differences are: Scale and that they did not kill them (but ruined their lives indirectly or deported them to Japan).

 

But the topic has been derailed far too much already and I apologise for derailing it further.

 

I think we have established some of the criteria that can serve as a basis of an argument that the Nazis were an 'exceptional nation'. They used industrial scale methods and were systematically eliminating the groups they had chosen to target on ideological grounds. I think the latter is the only difference that truly sets them apart from most other empires that have engaged in various civil rights abuses or genocides, their motives are usually aimed at securing economic interests or consolidating their power at the expense of others. This would include not just the USA, but also the older empires such as Britain, France and Spain, and the later 'red empires' of the Soviet Union and Red China.

 

EDIT

 

The question then is does seeing the swastika and other symbols of Nazi Germany actually seriously encourage anyone to support what is at best a cynical, genocidal and totalitarian ideology (despite having some redeeming features in the areas of animal protection/economy). Does seeing the hammer and cycle/red star encourage sympathy towards another cynical and homicidal regime?

 

In terms of WoT, you would hardly see any changes at least when it comes to German tanks as they used the Balkenkreuz and not the swastika. (My intention was not to slap a mustache and swastika on any of the German tanks in the game, just for the sake of clarification.) For WoWP and WoWS it would make a much bigger difference.

 

IMHO wanting to see historically accurate emblems does not translate into support for any particular political ideology. Each of us is entitled to resent any of them, of course, but seriously, how would we feel about watching a WW2 film with both the German and Soviet emblems having been 'sanitized' for 'viewer comfort' or for reasons of 'political correctness'.

 

 


Edited by Browarszky, 10 August 2018 - 02:33 PM.


pathed91 #73 Posted 10 August 2018 - 02:32 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

 

I think we have established some of the criteria that can serve as a basis of an argument that the Nazis were an 'exceptional nation'. They used industrial scale methods and were systematically eliminating the groups they had chosen to target on ideological grounds. I think the latter is the only difference that truly sets them apart from most other empires that have engaged in various civil rights abuses or genocides, their motives are usually aimed at securing economic interests or consolidating their power at the expense of others. This would include not just the USA, but also the older empires such as Britain, France and Spain, and the later 'red empires' of the Soviet Union and Red China.

 

 

 

Have to disagree with the "red empires" abusing civil rights on the basis on securing their own power. They definitaly genocided people like the nazis did, the difference is that their genocide was based on class instead of race.

Hedgehog1963 #74 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:14 PM

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View PostComrade_Renamon, on 10 August 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

 

They were taken from their homes from all over the American continent to concentration camps in the USA, their houses and wealth were sold to fuel the war effort.

They were to be traded for US PoWs or deported (Many was during the war). It was only recently that they managed to get Reparations for them from the American government (if I recall 2012). Living conditions were awful and after the war many did not get any compensation at all, a few thousand people were stranded cause they were not allowed back in the country that deported them to US request.

Just because it was not millions it is okay to expunge people from a country who lived there for a generation or two? I'm not excusing what the Nazis did to millions of people. But just overlooking atrocities like those because they were your country's allies is just as disgusting.

 

It's not even remotely close to what happened to the Jews under the nazis because they were rounded up all across Europe with the sole intent of murdering them until there were none left.

 

Internment of the Japanese Americans is a terrible thing to have happened but are making something out of it that it never was.  Just as disgusting?  Not even close.  You are a hysterical fool.

 

 

 



duijm #75 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:18 PM

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View PostCmdRatScabies, on 10 August 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

 

Genocide on a scale we never seen before or since may have something to do with it.  Just a hunch.

 

Like with the native Americans? Or firebombing German cities when the war was already won?...or how about warcrimes in Vietnam? Oh and 2.000.000 germans civilians dead in 1947 because pushing 15.000.000 outof their homes acording to what the Usa, Gb and Russia agreed on?

Edited by duijm, 10 August 2018 - 03:22 PM.


Hedgehog1963 #76 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:18 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

 

 

 

IMHO wanting to see historically accurate emblems does not translate into support for any particular political ideology.

 

 

 

I don't believe you.

Karasu_Hidesuke #77 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:20 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

 

I don't believe you.

 

Well, if that were the case then all the people involved in historical enactments would actually be Nazis then...

Hedgehog1963 #78 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:20 PM

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View Postduijm, on 10 August 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

 

 Or firebombing German cities when the war was already won?.

 

No German cities were firebombed when the war was won.  They ceased when the war ended.

 



Hedgehog1963 #79 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:21 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 10 August 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

 

Well, if that were the case then all the people involved in historical enactments would actually be Nazis then...

 

Obviously.  Why do you need to have this explained to you?

Edited by Hedgehog1963, 10 August 2018 - 03:21 PM.


duijm #80 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:23 PM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 10 August 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

 

No German cities were firebombed when the war was won.  They ceased when the war ended.

 

 

Germany allready lost the war in 1944. Bombing civilian targets in1945 had no tactical use what so ever.

Edited by duijm, 10 August 2018 - 03:23 PM.






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