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Premium HE ammunition should dissapear, here's why;

premium gold HE Conway FV4005 FV 215 183 T49 Sheridan Type 4 Heavy moms spaghetti

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Derethim #1 Posted 13 August 2018 - 12:42 AM

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Everyone knows it's broken, unbalanced ... yadda, yadda, yet I rarely see anyone in here complain about it and it kind of blows my mind as to why people tolerate this crap in the game.

Premium ammo, that gives unfair advantages/is required to pen certain tanks? Alright, fine. I can play the game with that. I'd rather not, but it's always been in the game and it doesen't make it that much less fun.

Mauses, VKBs, Russian stronk meds, HEP shell Bulldogs dominating scouts... alright. You can still outsmart those if you're skilled and a bit lucky.

 

But hold on... :D PREMIUM ... DAMN ... HE?! :D

An ammo type, that is exactly same as the regular HE ammunition for howitzers, only it deals more damage?

Sorry, what? :D

 

I'm now not talking about the type of premium HE ammunition that arties get - that one is fine (altough, in my opinion, it could use even more splash and like 30% less damage, so it's like a splash round).

I'm talking about the crap on Deathstar variants, Conway, Jap heavies etc.

 

If you're still okay with it and with Wargaming, try to understand my point;
- HEAT has trouble with spaced armor,
- APCR at least loses pen on distance and has worse normalization of 2° compared to AP's 5° of normalization (altough is still superior to AP on long ranges, which is just BS imho)

 

...but HE is still HE no matter how you look at it.

 

And before you start arguing with "WG doesen't read this anyway, so f you" they probably do see some of these posts on different forums if they last long enough or get big enough, otherwise they would never notice the arty complaints, the premium ammo complaints they don't give a flying duck AMX40 about, the Type 5 rants, the Maus rants before that. They do see it, but they always just wait until people stop complaining and just swallow the load and deal with it. And the posts die down and just dissapear with time and they just sort of "train" you and make you accept it, sort of like my cat had to accept not f*cking crapping on the floor, but into the goddamn sand.

 

So I suggest smearing it into their faces as much as possible before it becomes a "feature".

 

I'm just SO damn tired of Type 5s hitting me for 600, while I'm hulldown and just not caring where they land it. All they have to do is peek, shoot, damage dealt and hide until they reload. While you MAY do 800 damage,
if RNG doesen't splatter the brownies all over you and you pen both rounds with your 400 alpha, he will still do 800+ damage and he doesen't care about RNG that much, because he has one less thing to care about.

You care about rolling good accuracy, rolling good pen on his OP armor and rolling good damage. He only has to roll for good damage and MAYBE a tiny bit on accuracy, but it doesen't matter as much as I rarely see premium HE deal under 300.

 

Stop this bullcrap.

 

/endrant


Edited by Derethim, 13 August 2018 - 12:48 AM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #2 Posted 13 August 2018 - 12:50 AM

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Would you prefer if they gave the type more pen and same alpha on the premium round?

 

The bit about the cat is just hilarious! :)



Derethim #3 Posted 13 August 2018 - 12:59 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 13 August 2018 - 12:50 AM, said:

Would you prefer if they gave the type more pen and same alpha on the premium round?

 

 

No 150mm+ heavy gun in the game has this alpha on HEAT or APCR. Hell. No tier X heavy in this game has this damage on HE shell. The highest is E-100 with 950 HE damage.

So actually yes. They would have to balance it around that factor - by lowering the damage to something reasonable and not ... this ... stupidity.

 

And it's not just type. I see no reason for any tank in the game to have two versions of the same ammo, with one being directly superior with no drawbacks to the non-premium version.


Edited by Derethim, 13 August 2018 - 01:03 AM.


Gremlin182 #4 Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:10 AM

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Why the anger if you forget the words Gold and Premium its just ammo.

The tanks of the world do not drive around only with AP and HE.

 

There has always been a race between the armour being developed to beat the incoming shells and the improvements to shell construction so they can penetrate thicker armour.

Then of course they developed sloped armour and spaced armour and various kinds of reactive and composite to again defeat the shells.

Its always been a race.

Improved ammo is needed in the game.

 

The British developed HESH high explosive squash head its been added to the game as a high pen HE shell, the real thing didn't work that way but the effect is close enough.

As for extra damage HE shells I can only assume they made a shell that packed more explosive or a more powerful explosive into the shell.

Its not that unreasonable.

In the case of the Japanese heavies Its a shell that does 300 more damage to a shell that's already doing 1100, I carry half a dozen premium HE on my type 5 heavy.

The 1100 damage shell costs me 1320 credits while the premium is 6400 for that 300 extra.

Though given its firing at tier 10 tanks and the shell has 75mm of pen you do not reliably do 1100 or 1400 damage.

 

If you have a battle with mismatched tanks as we do some will need premium.

 



XxKuzkina_MatxX #5 Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:18 AM

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View PostDerethim, on 13 August 2018 - 01:59 AM, said:

 

No 150mm+ heavy gun in the game has this alpha on HEAT or APCR. Hell. No tier X heavy in this game has this damage on HE shell. The highest is E-100 with 950 HE damage.

So actually yes. They would have to balance it around that factor - by lowering the damage to something reasonable and not ... this ... stupidity.

 

And it's not just type. I see no reason for any tank in the game to have two versions of the same ammo, with one being directly superior with no drawbacks to the non-premium version.

 

So you wanna ruin the meme??? Okay, i am leaving you a gift on the carpet Mr. party pooper! :)

 

Now seriously...type 5 was meant to help the not so good players who want to play a heavy at tier 10. The whole line revolves around this idea. Personally, i don't mind that at all. You're allowed some fun in this game, you know!

 

When i play the type, it's a ******* comedy but it's unsustainable due to being huge, slow and prone to prem ammo AND there are much better heavies at tier 10.

 

So the type is not that big of a problem! It's the fat boy of tier 10 heavies.



Derethim #6 Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:22 AM

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View PostGremlin182, on 13 August 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

Why the anger if you forget the words Gold and Premium its just ammo.

An ammo that is meant to be expensive on purpose to boost premium account sales.

Yeah, game-breaking, making some matches unfun and blatantly stupid, but just ammo.

View PostGremlin182, on 13 August 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

There has always been a race between the armour being developed to beat the incoming shells and the improvements to shell construction so they can penetrate thicker armour.

Then of course they developed sloped armour and spaced armour and various kinds of reactive and composite to again defeat the shells.

Its always been a race.

Improved ammo is needed in the game.

These tanks never existed in the first place so don't try to mix the game up with reality - it's a game meant to be fun and their business practices are taking the fun out of with and replacing it with words like "premium account" and "gold HE".

It's either some japanese engineer's blueprint wet dream, or completely made up and drawn in 5 seconds in Paint by one of the marketing imbeciles over at WG's dirty-arse, tax-free HQ on Cyprus.

So don't try to mix it with reality, please.

 

Exactly - Barn's 183mm split the Conqueror turret in half. So we should have FV4005s and Deathstars running around and one-shotting everything anywhere it hits by this logic.

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 13 August 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

 

So you wanna ruin the meme??? Okay, i am leaving you a gift on the carpet Mr. party pooper! :)

 

Now seriously...type 5 was meant to help the not so good players who want to play a heavy at tier 10. The whole line revolves around this idea. Personally, i don't mind that at all. You're allowed some fun in this game, you know!

 

When i play the type, it's a ******* comedy but it's unsustainable due to being huge, slow and prone to prem ammo AND there are much better heavies at tier 10.

 

So the type is not that big of a problem! It's the fat boy of tier 10 heavies.

 

Yes, because literally everyone, who drives a Type 5 is a red newbie, who just got into the game and not average/good players jumping on the stat wanktrain :facepalm:

It's prone ONLY to prem ammo :sceptic:


Edited by Derethim, 13 August 2018 - 01:27 AM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #7 Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:24 AM

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View PostGremlin182, on 13 August 2018 - 02:10 AM, said:

The British developed HESH high explosive squash head its been added to the game as a high pen HE shell, the real thing didn't work that way but the effect is close enough.

 

Actually IRL, it was much more devastating than it's in the game....

 

Block Quote

 The 183mm was tested in live fire trials against a Centurion and a Conqueror. In 2 shots, the 183 blew the turret clean off the Centurion, and split the mantlet of the Conqueror in half.

 

Lovely! :)



XxKuzkina_MatxX #8 Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:28 AM

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View PostDerethim, on 13 August 2018 - 02:22 AM, said:

It's prone ONLY to prem ammo :sceptic:

 

Not true, got penned today with AP from an IS-7!!! <== (sarcasm)

 

The poor guy was aiming for 3 years and i was "it's okay, it'll be over soon dear!" :)


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 13 August 2018 - 01:30 AM.


WoT_RU_Doing #9 Posted 13 August 2018 - 03:17 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 13 August 2018 - 12:24 AM, said:

 

Actually IRL, it was much more devastating than it's in the game....

 

 

 

 The 183mm was tested in live fire trials against a Centurion and a Conqueror. In 2 shots, the 183 blew the turret clean off the Centurion, and split the mantlet of the Conqueror in half.

Lovely! :)

 

I hope they remembered to send the crew to barracks first...afaik the first aid kits don't work the same in real life either.

NoobySkooby #10 Posted 13 August 2018 - 07:56 AM

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It won't, heres why, WG needs to make money, simples, plus on many tanks standard ammo is just pointless, anyway without out it where would the Dingers be?:trollface:

LordMuffin #11 Posted 13 August 2018 - 08:44 AM

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View PostDerethim, on 13 August 2018 - 12:59 AM, said:

 

No 150mm+ heavy gun in the game has this alpha on HEAT or APCR. Hell. No tier X heavy in this game has this damage on HE shell. The highest is E-100 with 950 HE damage.

So actually yes. They would have to balance it around that factor - by lowering the damage to something reasonable and not ... this ... stupidity.

 

And it's not just type. I see no reason for any tank in the game to have two versions of the same ammo, with one being directly superior with no drawbacks to the non-premium version.

In all cases when APCR is the premium ammo.

The premium ammo is a straight upgrade with no drawbacks  compared to regular ammo.



Balc0ra #12 Posted 13 August 2018 - 11:09 AM

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I get why most are upset with the Type 4/5 gold round. It's a bit off vs the normal one. As their gold round is the same as the JPZ E-100 HE shell. But with a turret. IMO it should be 950 at the most with more pen. As 152mm derps etc have gold rounds with more pen and less alpha. Tho AP or HEAT and not HE.  As that 300 extra damage on a failed pen is handy. But also when facing lights and other paper targets. Seen Types smack tier 8 meds in the face from full HP. As that's my issue with it. Not the 600 HE smack to the face in a HT. As it's no better then 450 with normal ammo tbh. 

 

As for the 183? That's more a gamble and it also has high pen AP rounds vs the Type. You don't see constant 1700 damage rolls with HESH. You see more 600 damage rolls then that. And most of those you would smack for over 1K if you used AP with that base pen anyway. Even vs Types. So that can actually cripple the damage output on some games with full gold vs just AP. But on the Type 5 the gold HE won't have the same effect on some games vs normal ammo. But instead constantly makes you roll higher regardless, even more so when it fully pens. Tho it should not IMO. And would have had that same effect if the gold HE had more pen... and less max damage rolls. As in late game you face a light that you fully pens. But you used gold so it survives it. If you had normal HE he would have killed it. That's how it should have been. Gold on that should be a risk like the 183. Not a reward.

 

As I've lost a few games in the 183 by rolling less then 1K vs a moving med late game. That would have overmatched and killed it instantly if I had AP. 


Edited by Balc0ra, 13 August 2018 - 11:13 AM.


Lord_Edge #13 Posted 13 August 2018 - 11:23 AM

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View PostDerethim, on 13 August 2018 - 12:42 AM, said:

An ammo type, that is exactly same as the regular HE ammunition for howitzers, only it deals more damage?

View PostDerethim, on 13 August 2018 - 12:42 AM, said:

I'm talking about the crap on Deathstar variants, Conway, Jap heavies etc.

 

The type used on the British tanks isn't premium HE, it's HESH.

 

The type used on the Jap heavies isn't exactly the same as regular with higher damage, it has higher cost too.  This basically means that with the subpar standard rounds those tanks have to pay for the premium shells or be a burden to their team, which will bankrupt players fast meaning they can't play too many games in them.



Derethim #14 Posted 13 August 2018 - 11:55 AM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 13 August 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

In all cases when APCR is the premium ammo.

The premium ammo is a straight upgrade with no drawbacks  compared to regular ammo.

 

It is prone to ricochets and weak against sloped armor (Swedish TDs?). It has at least some disadvantages over premium HE.

That crap should never have been introduced.



StinkyStonky #15 Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:18 PM

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This is just moaning from someone who has ground the Super Conq and hasn't ground the Jap heavies.

 

If they had they would realise that peek-a-boo battles with hull down, impenetrable turret tanks, often go like this

 

Pull out, take 550, deal 350, pull back.

Pull out take 580, deal 290, pull back.

Pull out take 540, miss, pull back.

Pull out take 550, deal 50, pull back.



Gremlin182 #16 Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:37 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 13 August 2018 - 01:22 AM, said:

An ammo that is meant to be expensive on purpose to boost premium account sales.

Yeah, game-breaking, making some matches unfun and blatantly stupid, but just ammo.

These tanks never existed in the first place so don't try to mix the game up with reality - it's a game meant to be fun and their business practices are taking the fun out of with and replacing it with words like "premium account" and "gold HE".

It's either some japanese engineer's blueprint wet dream, or completely made up and drawn in 5 seconds in Paint by one of the marketing imbeciles over at WG's dirty-arse, tax-free HQ on Cyprus.

So don't try to mix it with reality, please.

 

Exactly - Barn's 183mm split the Conqueror turret in half. So we should have FV4005s and Deathstars running around and one-shotting everything anywhere it hits by this logic.

 

Yes, because literally everyone, who drives a Type 5 is a red newbie, who just got into the game and not average/good players jumping on the stat wanktrain :facepalm:

It's prone ONLY to prem ammo :sceptic:

 

Cost of premium ammo whether its meant to represent the rarity, cost of manufacturing, to limit overuse "that one failed" or just as a credit sink means little everyone can buy it it doesn't cost real money.

 

There comes a time in the game when there really isnt anything to spend credits on,I do not expect to buy any new tanks for a month or so and am closing on 32 million credits.

What should I do other than make sure every tank has a number of premium rounds that I feel they need to remain competitive.

I don't believe I overuse it my T32 heavy has 198 pen there is no chance I can make that work against current tanks above tier 8 hell above tier 7 for some.

So I carry maybe 15-30 premium and with the current 3 5 7 mm I might need more.

Removing premium makes a lot of tanks completely useless and a lot of stock grinds impossible we would be giving wargaming more real money to free xp past guns and tanks.

 

There are loads of fantasy tanks in the game that ship sailed years ago, one way to keep people interested is with new tanks and nations and quite often you have to get those tanks from drawings.

 

There are probably not that many death stars around any more, I have one I grabbed just before it was removed I run it with 20 AP and 20 HESH and don't use to much HESH the 310 pen on the AP is good enough and saves a lot of credits.

Got an FV4005 Stage 2 as well also with the 183mm gun run that with 20AP and 20 HESH too.

 

Both tanks are the main target for every enemy tank and the 4005 has 76mm hull armour and 14mm on the huge turret. you get maybe 3 shots off in a game before you are dead.

 

Type 5 heavy is a really stupid tank but its not the best tier 10 by a long way it should have a gun set up like they did with the new French heavies

The mid gun has decent pen but average alpha the Top gun has better alpha but average pen, at least thats the choice on the horrible AMX 65t 

 

They should rethink the Type 5 guns increase the pen of the 14 cm so its compatable with the other tier 10s heavies.

Modify the 15cm in a similar way  no way am I going to use loads of premium rounds for a possible but unlikely extra 300 damage.

 

I would leave it alone for now but after the proposed changes to premium ammo come in then take a look at it then.

As yet we have not seen their plans for premium just that they are reworking the whole system.

 



Andrasan89 #17 Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:59 PM

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the truth is very simple here...known for years, and very obvious

 

ALL PREMIUM AMMO MUST DISAPPEAR ! (rebalanced i mean ! Disappear from premium stage and become a strategic choice)

Why?

because its P2W and broken ! Only disadvantage is the cost and that makes it P2W.

Doesnt matter if its HE, AP or anything else...works same in moronic way

MORE PEN FOR MORE MONEY (wich at final translates to more damage ayway - you pen more you do more damage) OR EVEN MORE STUPID, DIRECTLY MORE DAMAGE FOR MORE MONEY.

thats all about ammo..

 

Now of course, with this, tanks must be rebalanced too and MM too.

ALL TANKS NEEDS WEAKPOINTS AND MM TO BE +/- 1

 

so easy fix...

:facepalm:

 

 


Edited by Andrasan89, 13 August 2018 - 03:19 PM.


LordMuffin #18 Posted 13 August 2018 - 03:09 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 13 August 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

 

It is prone to ricochets and weak against sloped armor (Swedish TDs?). It has at least some disadvantages over premium HE.

That crap should never have been introduced.

The extra pen gained is more then is lost due to less normalisation in all slopes.

It follow same ricochet rules as AP.

But due to flatter trajectory (higher velocity causes this) it could exist cases where a regular APCR might not auto-bounce while a AP might not.

 

Tbh, I think the entire concept with premium should be removed.


Edited by LordMuffin, 13 August 2018 - 03:11 PM.


Asperio #19 Posted 13 August 2018 - 07:45 PM

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The ammunition HE and the artillery exist because there are players who would be unable to play with normal ammunition.
They have to create an easier way for those people.
So unfortunately they are not going to take any of this away.

WindSplitter1 #20 Posted 13 August 2018 - 08:47 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 12 August 2018 - 11:59 PM, said:

 

No 150mm+ heavy gun in the game has this alpha on HEAT or APCR. Hell. No tier X heavy in this game has this damage on HE shell. The highest is E-100 with 950 HE damage.

So actually yes. They would have to balance it around that factor - by lowering the damage to something reasonable and not ... this ... stupidity.

 

And it's not just type. I see no reason for any tank in the game to have two versions of the same ammo, with one being directly superior with no drawbacks to the non-premium version.

 

You're comparing HE with HEAT/APCR? Are you serious?




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