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Rework: Ammuntion

ammo rework

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Paul_Kouadio #1 Posted 22 August 2018 - 10:19 AM

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Hey forumites. I've personally had enough of whining threads and complain threads and everything. Honestly, if I were a dev, I wouldn't even bother read the suggestions thread. Sure there are some real good suggestions, but they're not very common. Most peeps just complain about arty or MM or stuff like that. So I've decided to follow the good example set by Baldrickk in his Replay analysis thread, and I want to address ammo in WoT.

 

The devs have already talked about reworking ammo, and I think that tankers who are interested in pitching in and maybe involving themselves with this rework can come together and actually achieve something. I have a proposal for all of you and I encourage you to read it, think about it and push your own suggestions. Here's to hoping this will actually prove a useful thread that isn't whining but true thinking and considering.

 

​DISCLAIMER: ​These changes would need to go in hand with MM changes. Such an ammo rework would not make a big difference if you're an under-armored Tier VIII heavy that's always bottom-tier (*cough* Tiger II *cough*)

 

WARNING: Long-ish read ahead (for those lazies).

AMMO REWORK (applies to tanks tier VIII-X that don't use derp guns):)

SHELLS:

                APDS - Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot

                APCR - Armor Piercing Composite-Rigid

                APCBC - Armor Piercing Capped, Ballistic Capped

                HEAT - High Exlosive Anti-Tank

                APFSDS - Armor Piercing Fin-stabilised Discarding Sabot

                HESH - High Explosive Squash Head

 

HE rounds will remain for tanks that aren’t light tanks, and tanks that fire HESH currently (Centurions and other British tanks) will maybe keep that name or just become High Penetration HE… I dunno.

 

The main purposes of this proposal are threefold:

  1. Reduce prem ammo spam
  2. Reduce top tier heavy sniping from the red-line
  3. Allow different ammo types to be truly useful in different scenarios.

So! Take a look at the following table to check out the summary of the ammunition types. Do note that shell velocities are relative. Will have to update them with actual values. Note also that I didn't specify anything for penetration values that much: WG does their own balancing for that.

 

ammo rework.png

 

So now, how does this all apply?

Heavies will fire APCR. This will give them good shell velocity, and keep the normalization values we’re accustomed to. However, they won’t be able to snipe effectively at all. I mean, if they’re gonna sit at the back, why should they be able to farm damage from the back and raise their WN8? No way. If you want to farm damage, get to the front line.

Meds fire APDS. Also, meds (that aren’t dedicated snipers like K-91 and Leo 1) will struggle beyond 400m. That doesn’t mean you can’t snipe with your meds, but it won’t be as easy.

Lights will also fire APDS, but they’ll have an advantage, because they’ll have 7° of normalization, hopefully that’ll help them with their firepower and when circling heavies. They can also fire HESH… which stuns enemy tanks. Only they can fire HESH, and this will allow them to assist the team as well. Damage dealt by allies to stunned tanks will count towards assist dmg. Of course, they can’t just fire willy-nilly, they still have to aim in properly, as this shell can ricochet. HESH shells will have a penetration value: if the shell penetrates, it will deal damage only (just like HE); if it doesn’t penetrate, the shell will stun the enemy tank. Tier VIII lights have 8 second stun, tier IX have 9 seconds and tier X have 10 seconds. Stunning will not stack up or be cumulative. If you guys really hate stunning, do please mention it... although we can all agree that a lot of top tier lights are borderline useless most of the time.

TDs will fire APCBC. This shell will have slower shell velocity than meds and lights, but it really won’t lose much pen or velocity at max ranges. This doesn't apply to tanks like the Swedish TDs (and other TDs that I might've missed). As they are pure long range snipers, they'd fire APDS shells as standard.

HEAT is prem ammo for all tanks. It’s the slowest shell out of all the types. Good pen, with no pen decay at all, and full damage. Still sucks against spaced armor and all.

APFSDS is prem ammo that can be fired by all tanks. Use it when you need reliable and predictable damage, with the best pen, velocity, range, of all the ammos. Only deals 70% of damage though, so for example a 60TP with 750 alpha will have average damage of 525. Add to this the ±5% RNG for pen and damage, you can only high roll to around 551 damage. Another drawback is the loss of caliber. 90mm guns will lose 5mm; this will scale up (i.e. a loss of 5.55% of caliber. So 130mm gun will drop to 121mm,for example)

 

Note that when I say “not significant”, I mean that you would only notice it at really long ranges and stuff; it won’t bother you most of the time.

So, lights can use HESH to stun enemies and help their team take the down. Use HEAT when you need to deal with tough armor. Use APFSDS when you absolutely need to hurt that enemy tank, but know that it will cost you and that it has its drawbacks. Overall, the prices of prem ammo will be hiked. I guess someone might propose to allow F2P players have lower shell cost, but… that’s a pretty biased solution.

 

TL;DR: Just check the table and read the sections beginning in bold.

 

Okay guys, I think that’s the entirety of my proposal. Please, please, this is just my take on it. My real intention in doing this is to spur discussion and constructive talk around the upcoming ammo rework. This is a chance to allow the players to collaborate together to achieve something meaningful.:)

 

 


Edited by Paul_Kouadio, 22 August 2018 - 01:08 PM.


LordMuffin #2 Posted 22 August 2018 - 10:36 AM

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With your idea, you will still be able to redline snipe with HEAT ammo, though I hardly believe that is an issue at all.

The main goal for an ammo rework should, in my mind, be to remove premium ammo from the game. So, no more rounds with much higher pen if you are willing to spend extra credits.
Any rework that doesn't normalise all prices to similar price per damage on all rounds is a no-go for me.


To remove or decrease sniping possibilities, WG should adress accuracy values and spread within reticule and link them together, so high accuracy tanks have a better chance of hitting mid area while bad accuracy tanks have a more random distribution within the reticule.

Metalsniper #3 Posted 22 August 2018 - 10:40 AM

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I personally think they should give arty more round types such as smoke, cluster bombs and ofc if you are Russian a mini nuke. 

 

Scouts should have the ability to lay tank mines.

 

Heavies should have a HE round to knock down any building or wall 

 

Meds should have mini machine guns where they can spray bushes to spot campers 

 

TDs should have 1 special shell where they can one shot anything per game

 

Then we all can have something to laugh at 

 

 



pathed91 #4 Posted 22 August 2018 - 11:56 AM

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Prem shells with less damage is a poor idea with the current balancing (or lack thereof) with over buffed armor. You just gave tanks with no frontal weakspots an indirect buff, considering that you need prem shells to even pen them in the first place. You will now just have to spam even more premium ammo to kill them.

 

Another problem with dividing different ammo types based on tank classes is that vehicles within the same class can play totally different. Take TDs for example, your changes would be good for the brawling TDs like T95 and the like, but would be unsuitable for sniping TDs with no armor that would benifit from higher shell velocity. You would still have to divide ammo choices by a tank-to-tank basis. 



Paul_Kouadio #5 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:02 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 22 August 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Prem shells with less damage is a poor idea with the current balancing (or lack thereof) with over buffed armor. You just gave tanks with no frontal weakspots an indirect buff, considering that you need prem shells to even pen them in the first place. You will now just have to spam even more premium ammo to kill them.

 

Another problem with dividing different ammo types based on tank classes is that vehicles within the same class can play totally different. Take TDs for example, your changes would be good for the brawling TDs like T95 and the like, but would be unsuitable for sniping TDs with no armor that would benifit from higher shell velocity. You would still have to divide ammo choices by a tank-to-tank basis. 

 

​Oh crap you're right... i forgot a few things. Lemme edit real quick. Thanks for the feedback so far. I want to keep refining this idea and hopefully plenty of tankers will contribute and give their opinions.

Edited by Paul_Kouadio, 22 August 2018 - 01:10 PM.


Cobra6 #6 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:09 PM

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Just remove premium ammo completely while at the same time rebalancing all armor values in the game for same-tier standard ammo. Have viable weak spots for same tier standard ammo that can easily be penetrated if the shooter is knowledgeable. Basically the way it used to be in 2010=>2013

 

Problem solved and a balanced game at the same time.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 22 August 2018 - 01:09 PM.


Paul_Kouadio #7 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:13 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 22 August 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

Just remove premium ammo completely while at the same time rebalancing all armor values in the game for same-tier standard ammo. Have viable weak spots for same tier standard ammo that can easily be penetrated if the shooter is knowledgeable. Basically the way it used to be in 2010=>2013

 

Problem solved and a balanced game at the same time.

 

Cobra 6

 

Wouldn't this mean that when tanks are bottom tier they'd get wrecked hard? MM changes would need to accompany too right?



_SyN_ #8 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:17 PM

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This wasn't such a big issue in the past. Poor map design has forced you in to frontal engagements with no realistic flanking opportunities. Fix maps and watch the gold spam go down quite dramatically. Frontline was a nice example, I never shot a single gold round in that mode. It opened up ability to play underpowered/power-creeped tanks with some success also. Though not the be all end all, it is the major contributor to the issue.

ThinGun #9 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:23 PM

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I want a fireworks option, to distract the enemy while I scurry for cover under the nearest bush


Edited by ThinGun, 22 August 2018 - 01:23 PM.


pathed91 #10 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:23 PM

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View PostPaul_Kouadio, on 22 August 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

 

Wouldn't this mean that when tanks are bottom tier they'd get wrecked hard? MM changes would need to accompany too right?

 

That will undoubtebly happen for a long time if they did remove gold ammo, before WG manage to actually balance the tanks with actual weakspots again. Personaly I think it will never happan, it's just too much work with not enough payoff considering WG makes money off of the gold spam.

ThinGun #11 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:28 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 22 August 2018 - 01:23 PM, said:

 

That will undoubtebly happen for a long time if they did remove gold ammo, before WG manage to actually balance the tanks with actual weakspots again. Personaly I think it will never happan, it's just too much work with not enough payoff considering WG makes money off of the gold spam.

 

Not being funny here ... but HOW do WG make money from premium ammo?  Surely it's just acquired with credits?

pathed91 #12 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:31 PM

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View PostThinGun, on 22 August 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

 

Not being funny here ... but HOW do WG make money from premium ammo?  Surely it's just acquired with credits?

 

Because you will most likely need premium account to fund your gold spam if you play a lot of tier 10 tanks. Especially if you play type-5. 

Nethraniel #13 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:31 PM

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View PostThinGun, on 22 August 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

 

Not being funny here ... but HOW do WG make money from premium ammo?  Surely it's just acquired with credits?

 

average and below average players using extensive amounts of premium ammo will net a deficit, so the lose creds (or earn almost nothing).

In order to mitigate the loss of credits, they buy either premium time or premium tanks.



ThinGun #14 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:34 PM

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View PostNethraniel, on 22 August 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

 

average and below average players using extensive amounts of premium ammo will net a deficit, so the lose creds (or earn almost nothing).

In order to mitigate the loss of credits, they buy either premium time or premium tanks.

 

oooookaaaaaaay.  So you think people only go premium to fund their gold habit.  Fair enough.  It's an opinion you're entitled to, I suppose.

Nethraniel #15 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:36 PM

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View PostThinGun, on 22 August 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

 

oooookaaaaaaay.  So you think people only go premium to fund their gold habit.  Fair enough.  It's an opinion you're entitled to, I suppose.

 

No, of course not. But it is another incentive to get even more players buying premium time. You must always see the larger statistics and broader playerbase. So, I think it is one additional way to bring players to spend money.

LordMuffin #16 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:43 PM

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View PostPaul_Kouadio, on 22 August 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

 

Wouldn't this mean that when tanks are bottom tier they'd get wrecked hard? MM changes would need to accompany too right?

Low tiered tanks already get wrecked hard.

It would mean that low tiered tanks would be able to pen top tiered tanks frontally if they aim correct and the shell hit where they aim.

Instead of not being able to do that.



Gremlin182 #17 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:47 PM

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Premium ammo should not exist in the game so what they should do is rename all the premium ammo standard ammo.

Yes ok stop yelling, point is the only reason we call it gold and premium comes from when it cost gold its still based on historical ammo.

 

There are tanks that fire APCR thats premium and APCR thats standard its just ammo when all is said and done.

Please explain to me what you want my pershing to do in a tier 10 game with 190 pen The enemy have a tank that can hit me anywhere from any range and probably destroy me.

I have the option when in that situation to load an APCR round that gives me 268 pen.

 

Its entirely up to me how many I carry, even if I carry 100% premium you can still one shot me without bothering to aim.

I probably still need to aim even with that premium round.

It hits it pens it does 240 damage, you fire and hit and quite likely I die

Ahh yes but thats because you are a medium facing a heavy.

Well my T32 heavy has the same problem 198 pen or use premium which at 245 pen isnt even as good as the Pershing.

 

Some tanks need the extra pen of the premium rounds and as long as there is +2mm and missions to complete it will exist.

Learn to accept it at least until the promised rebalancing of ammo happens, though of course that might have been put back by the need to alter their plans for pmm tanks and the MM changes.

 

Till then all my tanks will continue to carry and use premium shells usually thie number will be quite low but some of my tanks carry a third premium and on one its nearly 50 50.

If I find a personal mission too hard for me I will if I feel like it carry all premium rounds.

 

 



Cobra6 #18 Posted 22 August 2018 - 01:48 PM

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View PostPaul_Kouadio, on 22 August 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

 

Wouldn't this mean that when tanks are bottom tier they'd get wrecked hard? MM changes would need to accompany too right?

 

No, weak spots *easy to pen for same tier standard ammo* means they are still viable for lower tier guns as well.

 

My post wasn't an exact armor value write-up, back in the days (2010=>2013) a knowledgeable player in a tier 6 tank could damage an IS-3 frontally if they knew where to shoot and this is how it *should* be.

The tier 6 would still lose in a straight up fight however as the DPM/Health difference made sure they would, however at least they stood a chance and could actually enjoy the game even if they were never going to win a 1 on 1.

Nowadays in a tier 6 you can just go kill yourself against a multitude of T8 heavies like the IS-3 as there is no viable way to engage them unless you press "2" or get the one IS-3 dumb enough to show you it's rear.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 22 August 2018 - 01:51 PM.


ares354 #19 Posted 22 August 2018 - 06:36 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 22 August 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

 

No, weak spots *easy to pen for same tier standard ammo* means they are still viable for lower tier guns as well.

 

My post wasn't an exact armor value write-up, back in the days (2010=>2013) a knowledgeable player in a tier 6 tank could damage an IS-3 frontally if they knew where to shoot and this is how it *should* be.

The tier 6 would still lose in a straight up fight however as the DPM/Health difference made sure they would, however at least they stood a chance and could actually enjoy the game even if they were never going to win a 1 on 1.

Nowadays in a tier 6 you can just go kill yourself against a multitude of T8 heavies like the IS-3 as there is no viable way to engage them unless you press "2" or get the one IS-3 dumb enough to show you it's rear.

 

Cobra 6

 

2010-2013, age where T54 and IS 7 use to crapon everything, good old time ? IS 3 use to be one of the most powerfull tanks on tier 8. No thx. 

AliceUnchained #20 Posted 22 August 2018 - 07:08 PM

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I really would like to understand the motives behind these arbitrary suggestions: why should Heavy Tanks get APCR, and Medium & Light tanks APDS? Why should guns which never had APCR or APDS ammunition get them? And why doesn't any class get HVAP? Where are the AP rounds, and APC, APBC? Furthermore, APFSDS is a post WW II-era design and has no business being in WoT in my opinion.  Finally your caliber reduction suggestion is way off: penetrators are way smaller in diameter compared to bore caliber than that.

 







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