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RNG on fully aimed shots needs looking at.

RNG

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Poll: RNG changes (52 members have cast votes)

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should accuracy on fully aimed shot land more central

  1. yes. (43 votes [79.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 79.63%

  2. no. (9 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  3. Maybe > Suggestions. (2 votes [3.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

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haha_ufail #1 Posted 25 August 2018 - 12:24 AM

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As of it current state RNG is 100% luck if the target is smaller than your aim circle, and i don't really know why it as bad as it is, the changes to RNG in 9.6 where totally justifiable by the way tanks with low accuracy could hit shots in the move more than was deemed acceptable, but at the same the stand still accuracy was hit rather hard too meaning that even fully aimed shots could miss a lot more often too, i recon that fully aimed shots should have a substantially higher chance of landing in the central focus zone circle.

 

(THIS IMAGE MAY BE INACCURATE BUT IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE)

Untitled-1.jpg

1, shows the changes to overall accuracy before and after 9.6 showing an increased chance of missed shots.

2, Idea to change how accuracy works from moving to stationary (yes the image is flipped but it just a rough demo)

 

just an idea i though id share.

 

Edit: in response to a reply.

View PostBalc0ra, on 24 August 2018 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well... that depends on distance. As you are not getting 0.3 dispersion at 500m. And even if you get a small RNG off center. It will be out of the circle at some point the further down range it goes. 

 

Those shots on 50m is a different matter. 

 

a possible way to increase accuracy at close range could be to change the way that shells fly. see below vvvvv

aim.jpg

reference line

shell travel zone

though this could create a new issue with shells hitting tanks behind walls, so a possible solution to this could be to add a "direct line of sight beam (not visible to the player)" using the red line as a beam that follows the shell from the tank requiring it to be able see the shell while its flying, though this will need to be tweaked for howitzer due to shell drop as the shell passes over a hill, possibly allow the line to follow the shell drop curvature.


Edited by haha_ufail, 25 August 2018 - 01:17 AM.


Balc0ra #2 Posted 25 August 2018 - 12:27 AM

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Well... that depends on distance. As you are not getting 0.3 dispersion at 500m. And even if you get a small RNG off center. It will be out of the circle at some point the further down range it goes. 

 

Those shots on 50m is a different matter. 



haha_ufail #3 Posted 25 August 2018 - 12:34 AM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 24 August 2018 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well... that depends on distance. As you are not getting 0.3 dispersion at 500m. And even if you get a small RNG off center. It will be out of the circle at some point the further down range it goes. 

 

Those shots on 50m is a different matter. 

 

i see what you mean by that. 

my main reason for this post is due to the amount of 100-200m shots that have missed, almost 2 out of 3 shots seem to totally miss the target maybe a possible solution to range dispersion could be to have the shells curve off the firing paths?

ill try and create a demo image and add it to the main post.



HassenderZerhacker #4 Posted 25 August 2018 - 02:53 PM

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View Posthaha_ufail, on 25 August 2018 - 12:24 AM, said:

As of it current state RNG is 100% luck if the target is smaller than your aim circle, and i don't really know why it as bad as it is, the changes to RNG in 9.6 where totally justifiable by the way tanks with low accuracy could hit shots in the move more than was deemed acceptable, but at the same the stand still accuracy was hit rather hard too meaning that even fully aimed shots could miss a lot more often too, i recon that fully aimed shots should have a substantially higher chance of landing in the central focus zone circle.

 

(THIS IMAGE MAY BE INACCURATE BUT IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE)

Untitled-1.jpg

1, shows the changes to overall accuracy before and after 9.6 showing an increased chance of missed shots.

2, Idea to change how accuracy works from moving to stationary (yes the image is flipped but it just a rough demo)

 

just an idea i though id share.

 

Edit: in response to a reply.

 

a possible way to increase accuracy at close range could be to change the way that shells fly. see below vvvvv

aim.jpg

reference line

shell travel zone

though this could create a new issue with shells hitting tanks behind walls, so a possible solution to this could be to add a "direct line of sight beam (not visible to the player)" using the red line as a beam that follows the shell from the tank requiring it to be able see the shell while its flying, though this will need to be tweaked for howitzer due to shell drop as the shell passes over a hill, possibly allow the line to follow the shell drop curvature.

 

actually, I am still convinced that shell trajectory is not totally random.

there are too many "lucky" hits, i.e. the shell deviates from center, but not randomly, it deviates to hit a weakspot on the enemy tank, and my perception is that this happens far too often in battle.

I think this is related to the gunner's skill level and maybe snapshot skill.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #5 Posted 25 August 2018 - 07:48 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 25 August 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

 

actually, I am still convinced that shell trajectory is not totally random.

there are too many "lucky" hits, i.e. the shell deviates from center, but not randomly, it deviates to hit a weakspot on the enemy tank, and my perception is that this happens far too often in battle.

I think this is related to the gunner's skill level and maybe snapshot skill.

 

What's the correct percentage of "lucky" shots that would indicate that the deviation is random?



Steve8066 #6 Posted 25 August 2018 - 08:06 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 25 August 2018 - 12:27 AM, said:

Well... that depends on distance. As you are not getting 0.3 dispersion at 500m. And even if you get a small RNG off center. It will be out of the circle at some point the further down range it goes. 

 

Those shots on 50m is a different matter. 

 

ive been in a hetzer and was touching a matilda and 2 of my shots completely missed the target, thats not RNG becauise even with bad RNG it would (should) be impossible to miss, thats a bug/broken mechanics. I will admit that it doesnt happen much, but it does now and then.

Fighto #7 Posted 25 August 2018 - 08:15 PM

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The drop on velocity on shots is getting comical at this stage. Sometimes a fully aimed shot does not even make half way towards the target. RNG has ruined this game.

HassenderZerhacker #8 Posted 25 August 2018 - 08:22 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 25 August 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

What's the correct percentage of "lucky" shots that would indicate that the deviation is random?

 

it could be calculated using the surface of the weakspot vs. dispersion, i.e. probability to hit the weakspot.

I didn't do that calculation because it would bore me to death.

BUT: my feeling is that lucky shots happen too often vs. the "felt probability"

maybe someone less bored with maths than me could calculate the exact odds, and then we need some sample size, maybe 1000 shots.



sgtYester #9 Posted 25 August 2018 - 08:45 PM

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View Posthaha_ufail, on 25 August 2018 - 12:34 AM, said:

 

i see what you mean by that. 

my main reason for this post is due to the amount of 100-200m shots that have missed, almost 2 out of 3 shots seem to totally miss the target maybe a possible solution to range dispersion could be to have the shells curve off the firing paths?

ill try and create a demo image and add it to the main post.

 

i dont have that problem .  but then again, i play kv2 with 0.60 super accuracy. dah

NUKLEAR_SLUG #10 Posted 25 August 2018 - 10:11 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 25 August 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

BUT: my feeling is that lucky shots happen too often vs. the "felt probability"

 

Presumably if you're seeing shots deviating to hit weakspots then your referring to your observations of your own shots so is the suggestion here that WG is rigging your shot RNG in your favour?



HassenderZerhacker #11 Posted 25 August 2018 - 11:38 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 25 August 2018 - 10:11 PM, said:

 

Presumably if you're seeing shots deviating to hit weakspots then your referring to your observations of your own shots so is the suggestion here that WG is rigging your shot RNG in your favour?

 

correct.

and I'm pretty sure it also happens for enemies what hit me.

therefore I'm not sure it can be called "rigging", because I guess it applies to anyone.

 

I just have a hunch there is a hidden stat influencing this, and it could be influenced by the gunner's skill or rank. If it's the skill, this is an obvious reason to use food consumables.

I did also observe other (good) players, and many often spam shots also when the chance to hit should be very small, like on hull down tanks 300m away, yet they manage to hit the cupola. Happens often to me too, I just get hit too often in tiny spots, even when moving, jiggling.

but there is also another thing happening, which is missing. sometimes shots seems magically guided to the strongest part of armor or to a stone or whatever would make the shot not pen...


Edited by HassenderZerhacker, 25 August 2018 - 11:43 PM.


RockyRoller #12 Posted 26 August 2018 - 12:50 AM

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I always find it annoying the first shot always misses, and the quickest cure afterwards is to auto lock, release and re aim. Its like what you see isn't what their server sees.

 

Perhaps a target range room to demonstrate how bad aiming is in real terms? 


Edited by RockyRoller, 26 August 2018 - 12:55 AM.


Hedgehog_small_tanks #13 Posted 26 August 2018 - 02:11 AM

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Every time someone claims that they were fully aimed and shows a screenshot it turns out they weren't and then they blame RNG.  So stop it.

PervyPastryPuffer #14 Posted 26 August 2018 - 10:56 AM

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I'm just happy shell velocity is not affected by RNG aswell... :sceptic:

 

Read in a recent Q&A (17th Aug.) they're looking into improving shell dispersion in the aiming circle.

 

Block Quote

Are Devs looking at RNG and possible changes to it?

 

Anton B: There are multiple RNG elements in the game. Generally, when players speak about RNG, they mean damage and penetration distribution. These rules are in the game to represent armor and shell quality variance and other variables too complex to calculate in real time. For example, many cast turrets had varied armor thickness due to their complex shape, and even hundreds of armor groups won’t reflect it with any grade of accuracy. So instead we use randomization to emulate the influence of such factors on an individual shot, and we are quite happy with how these two work. However there is one RNG element we are looking into right now. It is a random function governing how shots are spread within the reticle. I can’t share any specific info on what are we planning yet, but we aim on making it more predictable and better reflecting what a particular gun is good (or bad) at.

 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #15 Posted 26 August 2018 - 01:07 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 25 August 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

 

correct.

and I'm pretty sure it also happens for enemies what hit me.

therefore I'm not sure it can be called "rigging", because I guess it applies to anyone.

 

I just have a hunch there is a hidden stat influencing this, and it could be influenced by the gunner's skill or rank. If it's the skill, this is an obvious reason to use food consumables.

I did also observe other (good) players, and many often spam shots also when the chance to hit should be very small, like on hull down tanks 300m away, yet they manage to hit the cupola. Happens often to me too, I just get hit too often in tiny spots, even when moving, jiggling.

but there is also another thing happening, which is missing. sometimes shots seems magically guided to the strongest part of armor or to a stone or whatever would make the shot not pen...

 

So you reckon WG have implemented a light "aimbot" feature that artificially guides a shell aimed at a tank to weakspots to improve penetration rolls and also they've implemented a light "anti-aimbot" feature that artificially guides shells aimed at a tank to stronger points to reduce penetration rolls. So what you're suggesting then is that sometimes when you aim at a tank the shell might hit a weakspot and sometimes it might hit a strong spot..

 

One might consider that outcome "random".


Edited by NUKLEAR_SLUG, 26 August 2018 - 01:07 PM.


HassenderZerhacker #16 Posted 26 August 2018 - 05:19 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 26 August 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

 

So you reckon WG have implemented a light "aimbot" feature that artificially guides a shell aimed at a tank to weakspots to improve penetration rolls and also they've implemented a light "anti-aimbot" feature that artificially guides shells aimed at a tank to stronger points to reduce penetration rolls. So what you're suggesting then is that sometimes when you aim at a tank the shell might hit a weakspot and sometimes it might hit a strong spot..

 

One might consider that outcome "random".

 

if you are skilled in maths or in computer coding, you know that true randomness is impossible to achieve.

What I witness might be RNG imperfections.



kejmo #17 Posted 26 August 2018 - 05:47 PM

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I would rather hope for that before the battle pre-defined rng fix. 

 

When you hit arty 5 times with Progetto for 0 dmg from and miss twice from 40m distance, you know that you had to lose this match. 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #18 Posted 26 August 2018 - 06:13 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 26 August 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

 

if you are skilled in maths or in computer coding, you know that true randomness is impossible to achieve.

What I witness might be RNG imperfections.

 

It might also be wishful thinking, but if we're assuming WGs RNG algorithm is of sufficiently poor quality that you are able to discern 'patterns' then you should be able to record those patterns and be able to predict outcomes. 







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