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Tiger P thoughts.


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ares354 #1 Posted 27 August 2018 - 03:22 PM

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I recently have bought Tiger P to get M I never had, and to play it again. And tank is really bad, way worse then old days, even if I got a lot better. The armor he have over Tiger H don't really work, and what he get for it, it not worth it. 

Tiger H have over P
-DPM, gun handling, soft stats
-Mobility 

-Turret armor
Exactly the same are; 

-View range

What Tiger P get over H

-Hull armor, but that its a lie in a way. Sure we have 200 mm plate in 2 place in front, but we do get 80 mm lower plate that is way bigger then 60 mm lower plate on H, and side plate that are only 80, which H dont have. 

Only way to make Tiger P really worth being there is to buff that armor a bit.

 

http://Posted Image

 

-Buff those 200 mm plate by 20 mm. To be more precise Tiger P and Ferdi had both two 100 mm plate plate one next to another, and Americans found out that some Ferdi td had those plate 10 mm thicker then plans told, so this is quite historical reason to give that buff both to Tiger P and Ferdi.(reason is to have more chance to bounce tier 8 ammo(non premium), tier 9 won't care for Tiger P armor anyway) 

http://Posted Image source of those info. 
-Main problem with TigerP and Ferdi, but mostly Tiger P are those "shoulder" plates. They are both weakspot from front and when angling, which make no sense. I saw comment of one of forum user(Dava but i am not sure), to buff them to 200 mm thickness, that is idea. Tiger P have way to many weakspot on hull
-Last change in armor, unify cupola armor. Belive or not, but that top part have only 50 mm of armor and I was pen by HE there. 125 all around or even 150 mm thickness. It big, way bigger then Tiger H and esier to pen, for ARMORED HT its joke. 
-No changes to lower plate, turret front, dpm, mobility and so on. 

I think its fair trade to make Tiger P armor really worth something. Still, with all my buff, he wont have better armor then O-NI, and still with wekaspots, but a least in compere to Tiger H, for all he lose for that armor, armor will mean something. 

What do you think ? 

 

 


Edited by ares354, 27 August 2018 - 03:24 PM.


Balc0ra #2 Posted 27 August 2018 - 03:51 PM

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20mm extra there won't even help much when top tier. Even less when so many angle the side armor plates towards their targets, that's not even 115mm effective head-on. That and the 50mm plate on the cupola. When I played it last, that's where all the hits where. Not so much on the 200mm plate. And 200mm buff on those might be too much. But from 80 to 150mm would not break it. 

 

So yeah. A buff to the cupola and side plates will help it survive more. But that was not my biggest beef with it. In the current meta, it's ROF is way to slow vs anything he faces. Cutting it down by a second would help loads. As then it's still not faster then the Tiger I. And the power to weight is terrible vs anything with armor that he also faces. So it's worse at fighting vs multiple targets then even the Jap HT's. 

 

So IMO cheek armor, cupola, ROF and power to weight is what needs looking at. 



ares354 #3 Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:00 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 27 August 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

20mm extra there won't even help much when top tier. Even less when so many angle the side armor plates towards their targets, that's not even 115mm effective head-on. That and the 50mm plate on the cupola. When I played it last, that's where all the hits where. Not so much on the 200mm plate. And 200mm buff on those might be too much. But from 80 to 150mm would not break it. 

 

So yeah. A buff to the cupola and side plates will help it survive more. But that was not my biggest beef with it. In the current meta, it's ROF is way to slow vs anything he faces. Cutting it down by a second would help loads. As then it's still not faster then the Tiger I. And the power to weight is terrible vs anything with armor that he also faces. So it's worse at fighting vs multiple targets then even the Jap HT's. 

 

So IMO cheek armor, cupola, ROF and power to weight is what needs looking at. 

 

You misunderstood me. 20 mm should be added to those 200 mm plate. And those 80 mm shoulder plate should be 200 thick(150 may be too little). 

Well, I dont know if buffing rof will be good idea, after all Tiger H should have better firepower for less armor. DPM mabe a bit better, but not by much. BP have bad dpm too. So both of them need rof buff in that case.

And I would not add him HP to engine, if anything make ground resistance better. Buff mobility by soft stats not by fake engine. 

Makotti #4 Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:29 PM

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Thoughts ? Kill, kill it with fire.

 

Worst free xp sink I've ever encountered.



SevernaSnaga #5 Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:38 PM

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I adore VK 30.01 P, i even 3 marked it, but Tiger P:

Worse gun tier by tier

Worse mobility

Similar armor tier by tier(bcs of weak spots)

 

Only good thing is twice as much hp (1500)

I use that to punish low alpha guns.

i have good win rate, but number of battles is minor to say something.

I think these changes would be good:

Buff turret armor(except Cupola on top)

Buff shoulders to 180mm(so lower tier cant pen when facing directly)

Buff 200mm armor to 220mm



ares354 #6 Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:40 PM

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View PostSevernaSnaga, on 27 August 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

I adore VK 30.01 P, i even 3 marked it, but Tiger P:

Worse gun tier by tier

Worse mobility

Similar armor tier by tier(bcs of weak spots)

 

Only good thing is twice as much hp (1500)

I use that to punish low alpha guns.

i have good win rate, but number of battles is minor to say something.

I think these changes would be good:

Buff turret armor(except Cupola on top)

Buff shoulders to 180mm(so lower tier cant pen when facing directly)

Buff 200mm armor to 220mm

 

Well, I think bigger problem then turret front is that cupola which is HUGE. I mean, look how tiny is on Tiger H, but on P. It really hard to hide, and every tank Tiger P meet can pen it. 

VK 3001P is beast in compere to P, which is second worst tier 7 HT. 

Coldspell #7 Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:44 PM

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Yes this one of those tanks that really suffered powecreep. Also as mentioned earlier the cupola is terrible. This tank needs a fairly major rework.

Hedgehog_small_tanks #8 Posted 27 August 2018 - 05:24 PM

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We had a thread about this last week.  If I can manage a 61% WR in this after 171 battles so can anyone.

ares354 #9 Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:10 PM

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View PostHedgehog_small_tanks, on 27 August 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

We had a thread about this last week.  If I can manage a 61% WR in this after 171 battles so can anyone.

 

But it not about how OP or UP this thing really is. It about he HAS no point in tech tree if Tiger H is better choice. This tank trades everything for 2 200 mm plate and 2 more wekaspot over Tiger H hull(cheek plates), and that is craptrade. Plus we get bigger cupola coz of reason. 

Why would you play Tiger P over H? I see no reason. Those 200 mm plate dont give them to me. To you ? Its bad tank because on tier 9 and mostly tier 8 those 200 mm plate mean nothing, and Tiger H dpm, gun handling, mability help a lot more, because armor Tiger P have vs gun you meet on tier 8 and 9 is meaniless. 

So what Tiger P really get in tier 8 and 9 mm over Tiger H ? Burden. Because those 200 mm plates does not matter vs those guns.

 

Block Quote

 Yes this one of those tanks that really suffered powecreep. Also as mentioned earlier the cupola is terrible. This tank needs a fairly major rework. 

 

Yes I agree. Now after playing this tank I feel how bad he really is. 


Edited by ares354, 27 August 2018 - 06:12 PM.


Simeon85 #10 Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:31 PM

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Personally I'd buff the shoulder plates so the tank can angled properly, it has a cupola weakspot and a lower plate weakspot, so that is more than enough. The 200mm plates are fine for a tier 7 heavy especially if you could angle them, buff the shoulder plates to the same 200mm IMO, then the tank can actually use it's hull armour. 

Brodie_ #11 Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:45 PM

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The way that I played the Tiger P, to get the most from it was fairly simple.
It does not have many strengths.
But it's main one is to poke around a corner front 1st.

I always went to a corner.
Everyone knows about the weak hull cheeks!
That is what every player tries to shoot when they see one!
When I played though it.
I found that by going around the corner without revealing the hull cheek, taking a shot then pulling back was the best tactic with it.

Yes it has a massively weak lower plate, which anything can pen!
But most players at that time, were so intent upon shooting the cheeks, they often shot the thickest armour when they could not see them!
I found this worked really well at the time, hence my good stats in it!

Players are now more aware than ever though...
So that tactic may not work so well.
But that is the way I made it work.

Of course the OP tier 8 premiums, did not exist then either...

 

Good luck!

 

The Maus is awesome by the way!


Edited by Brodie_, 27 August 2018 - 06:47 PM.


ares354 #12 Posted 27 August 2018 - 07:11 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 27 August 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

Personally I'd buff the shoulder plates so the tank can angled properly, it has a cupola weakspot and a lower plate weakspot, so that is more than enough. The 200mm plates are fine for a tier 7 heavy especially if you could angle them, buff the shoulder plates to the same 200mm IMO, then the tank can actually use it's hull armour. 

 

I will agree on adding shoulder plates 120 mm extra armor but still those 200 mm plate need those 20 mm. Why ? AP and APCR normalization. Even angling dont add much armor to bounce  Tiger P mediocre APCR. 

 

http://Posted Image


Cupola dont need better armor(but if size stay should get) but smaller size. Its too big, like with E5. Something that is also very funny about this tank is he still have 2.9 sec aim time, old days of WG balance. But I can live with it as long as armor will be useable. 


Edited by ares354, 27 August 2018 - 07:13 PM.


TwistedDrake #13 Posted 27 August 2018 - 07:24 PM

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Buff fire rate and speed and it'll be fine. Right now it shoots slower than the Tiger I with the same gun and chances is that it has to brawl more as it is sooo slow.

ares354 #14 Posted 27 August 2018 - 08:18 PM

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View PostTwistedDrake, on 27 August 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

Buff fire rate and speed and it'll be fine. Right now it shoots slower than the Tiger I with the same gun and chances is that it has to brawl more as it is sooo slow.

 

If we buff rof and speed he will be simply better then Tiger H. And we dont need clones here. What we need is flesh out armor 

Edited by ares354, 27 August 2018 - 08:18 PM.


Dava_117 #15 Posted 27 August 2018 - 08:44 PM

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I substantially agree with Ares, Simeon and Balc0ra.

The shoulder should recieve a major buff, the magnitude of it depends on how we want to make the armour work.

1) angling: in this case, I would buff the shoulder to 200mm too. The tank can be angled better and have bettere HE resistance.

2) pray and hope (aka strong head on): buff 200mm to 220mm and sides to 150mm. Head on the tank is stronger, almost immune to tier 7 and 8 AP, but can't be angled effectively (like type4).

 

For both a small DPM may be good, but can't say if really needed...


Edited by Dava_117, 27 August 2018 - 10:18 PM.


Bordhaw #16 Posted 27 August 2018 - 09:36 PM

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View Postares354, on 27 August 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

Tiger P thoughts.

 

 

Good luck!



VarzA #17 Posted 27 August 2018 - 09:50 PM

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View Postares354, on 27 August 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

 

-Main problem with TigerP and Ferdi, but mostly Tiger P are those "shoulder" plates. They are both weakspot from front and when angling, which make no sense. I saw comment of one of forum user(Dava but i am not sure), to buff them to 200 mm thickness, that is idea. Tiger P have way to many weakspot on hull
-Last change in armor, unify cupola armor. Belive or not, but that top part have only 50 mm of armor and I was pen by HE there. 125 all around or even 150 mm thickness. It big, way bigger then Tiger H and esier to pen, for ARMORED HT its joke. 
-No changes to lower plate, turret front, dpm, mobility and so on. 

I think its fair trade to make Tiger P armor really worth something. Still, with all my buff, he wont have better armor then O-NI, and still with wekaspots, but a least in compere to Tiger H, for all he lose for that armor, armor will mean something. 

What do you think ? 

 

 

 

Shoulders are also penned by the KV-2 with HE shell.

Getting them to 100mm would be fine, but the main problem of the tank is the bad mobility with not so great gun handling of the long 88 (as well as horrid dpm), which increases exposure time.

 

This is pretty much why i play mine with the short 88.


Edited by VarzA, 27 August 2018 - 09:50 PM.


ares354 #18 Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:08 PM

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View PostVarzA, on 27 August 2018 - 09:50 PM, said:

 

Shoulders are also penned by the KV-2 with HE shell.

Getting them to 100mm would be fine, but the main problem of the tank is the bad mobility with not so great gun handling of the long 88 (as well as horrid dpm), which increases exposure time.

 

This is pretty much why i play mine with the short 88.

 

100 mm change here nothing really. You will still be pen my most tier 6 and 7. It like adding now 20mm, that too low. And yes, KV 2 HE can pen, he need high roll but still.

Short 88 wont work vs tier 9 if you have shoot them from front. Gold APCR on short 88 have less pen then normal 88, and you know that. I dont really see any reason to use that gun over matches where you are top tier. 

 

FatigueGalaxy #19 Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:16 PM

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Yeah, remove all frontal weakspots from this tank so it's more like its bigger brothers with 220+ cupolas... I bet nobody will complain about it.

Friendly tip:

Posted Image

GJ, now you managed hide almost all of your weakspots. If shooting at LFP wasn't his first weakspot of choice and he wanted to shoot you in the cupola or shoulder armour, you gained some time - hopefully your reaction time is faster so you can shoot him before he corrects his aim.

 

I think you all underestimate how much it means when you don't take damage from red players, lower tier tank or some random shots, when people panic or auto-aim, or just RNG screws them. I played both Tigers and while I think Tiger H is better (tier 7 TD firepower on a tank with 1500 HP - yep), I enjoyed Tiger P more - mostly because I didn't have to worry that some random tier 5 TD hidden in a bush 300 m away (hello T67 players) will eat 50% of my HP before I manage to get close enough to spot him. This, and bullying tier 5-7 tanks that didn't know how to deal with me.

I still remember how many times this "worthless" armour saved my skin and let me win many encounters. Just because I didn't loose that 300 HP to some random tier 5-6 tank that popped out of nowhere.

 

If anything, Tiger P could use some mobility and RoF buff - just to match today's standards. Armour is fine at it is - it saves you HP from random shots, bad players, etc. so you can use it when trading with equal and higher tier tanks. And bouncing some 250+ mm pen guns isn't rare either when people don't bother to aim (since you are two tiers below them).



VarzA #20 Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:53 PM

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View Postares354, on 27 August 2018 - 10:08 PM, said:

 

100 mm change here nothing really. You will still be pen my most tier 6 and 7. It like adding now 20mm, that too low. And yes, KV 2 HE can pen, he need high roll but still.

Short 88 wont work vs tier 9 if you have shoot them from front. Gold APCR on short 88 have less pen then normal 88, and you know that. I dont really see any reason to use that gun over matches where you are top tier. 

 

 

Short 88 is 145/194, while long 88 is 203/237 i believe.

So you can consider short 88 with gold being about the same as long 88 with standard.

 

Tbh, i don't see it as losing a lot of potential.

Vs t9's, if they are paper it won't matter, and the dpm + gun handling buff will matter, while if they are even remotely well armored, long 88 with gold is simply not enough to do any kind of serious damage .... even if you pen you are looking at 7.42s reload vs 5.8s with short 88.

Vs t8's, it's the same deal really, the gold on the long 88 is simply not that good.

 

The way i play mine is to be aggressive if top tier, support otherwise, and you can definitely track just as well with the short 88, not to mention the much better ability to snapshot/dpm.

Most ppl get shocked to see a Tiger P dish out the same dpm as a t8 medium when they get close.

--

As for the shoulders, you are wrong.

As i said, 60% of the time an HE shell from the KV-2 will roll pen high enough to go through it.

100mm is more than enough to handle things, and you get about 140mm angled.

 

The Tiger P is kinda like the pike-nosed russian tanks, some armor if it is looking straight at you, and moving fast to attack you, leaving little time to actually aim ... otherwise if you try to angle, in general you are just making it worst .... unless you manage to hide the shoulders.


Edited by VarzA, 27 August 2018 - 10:58 PM.





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