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How to balance PREMIUM AMMO.


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SevernaSnaga #1 Posted 30 August 2018 - 01:16 PM

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I want to see your feedback, what if premium ammo did a bit less damage than standard counter party, just a tiny bit(1-5 for lower tiers:lower alpha/5-30 for higher tiers:higher alpha)

This will stop people from having full gold loadout in a tank and make them use AP as penable tanks, and if  they dont, they will lose DPM.

If you get shot by gold in a LT/MT, It will fell better since he didnt do full damage of AP.



ricoBenitez1 #2 Posted 30 August 2018 - 01:32 PM

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If you get shot by gold then just keep the rest of the gold, since we dont have gold shells in game annymore

SevernaSnaga #3 Posted 30 August 2018 - 01:35 PM

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View PostricoBenitez1, on 30 August 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

If you get shot by gold then just keep the rest of the gold, since we dont have gold shells in game annymore

 

That was supposed to be funny? You know what im talking about, maybe you dont buy it with gold, but in damage recieved its highlighted by gold color instead of silverish.

PowJay #4 Posted 30 August 2018 - 01:37 PM

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Another truly original idea hits the forums...


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

Oh, wait.



Balc0ra #5 Posted 30 August 2018 - 01:46 PM

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It's been recommended 100 times before. And it might have two issues. People will still press 2, as the DPM will still be bigger than when all their shots bounce. So I doubt it will reduce it that much. And depending on how much you reduce it with. The RNG % might still gain it back again. 

 

And ofc Premium tanks. If you nerf the gold ammo on every single premium in the game. You could argue that it's no longer is as advertised when you bought it. And that we have seen before. As there was a massive refund wave after several complaints with the T26E4 nerf back in the day when he lost it's 2nd spaced armor plate. I doubt WG want's to do that again with more or less every premium tank in the game. 

 

So you would just end up with tier 8 games where half the guns did less damage, then the others. Making it really pay2win on old premiums. You would also cripple stock grinds. As there are tier 9 stock grinds with 170 pen and less gold pen then their top gun has standard pen. So then you would just punish those players more too in a way. 


Edited by Balc0ra, 30 August 2018 - 01:47 PM.


fighting_falcon93 #6 Posted 30 August 2018 - 02:09 PM

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Yes and no. In my opinion, you are on the right track but you've oversimplified the problem.

 

First of all, the price has to change aswell. There shouldn't be any "premium" version of either ammo or consumables. There should be different kinds of ammo/consumables, but they should all cost roughly the same. The point here is that before and during a battle, you shouldn't ever have to think that using some kind of ammo/consumable will ruin your ingame economy. What kind of loadout you pick should purely be a decision of tactics and game style.

 

Secondly, while the recuded damage is along the right track, I think that "a bit" lower damage will still not force players to properly switch between ammo types during a battle. I'm thinking more along the lines of making all ammo types good in certain situations, and a lot worse in other situations. There shouldn't be any generic all-situation ammo except the standard AP.

 

If I where to design it, this is how I would do it:

 

Note: This is a breif example to give you the general idea, I don't want to write an assay.

 

AP:

- Standard ammo, jack-of-all-trades, but not specifically good at anything.

 

APCR:

- High velocity round that uses kinetic energy to pierce the armor.

- Very high penetration on close distance, but quick drop-off over distance.

- Very high shell velocity and thus you have to give less lead when aiming.

- If the projectile has twice the penetration compared to the targets armor, it will over-penetrate and do 0 damage.

 

HEAT:

- Low velocity round that uses a directed explosion to pierce the armor.

- Low penetration on close distance, but very good penetration over distance since there's no penetration drop-off.

- Low shell velocity and thus you have to give more lead when aiming.

- If the projectile hits any obstacle or spaced armor on its way, it will pre-detonate and do 0 damage.

 

HESH:

- No good ideas at the moment, but I'm sure this one can be made very interesting (and realistic) aswell.

- Maybe some kind of incrased crew damage?

 

Except for all the stuff mentioned above, all ammo types should have different values for things like normalization, ricochet angles etc.

 

A few scenarios to put this in:

 

- Shooting a Batchat with APCR on close range will result in overpenetration and thus 0 damage.

- Shooting an IS-7 in the side with HEAT will result in pre-detonation and thus 0 damage.

 

Etc etc.. I think you get the point.

 

With a system like the one I mentioned above, I don't think that it's required to make APCR and HEAT to cause less damage, but if the differences between the ammo types are proven to be too small, then a difference in damage can be added aswell. For example, AP could do 100% damage, while APCR would do only 80% and HEAT would do 90%.


Edited by fighting_falcon93, 30 August 2018 - 02:14 PM.


SevernaSnaga #7 Posted 30 August 2018 - 02:15 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 30 August 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

People will still press 2, as the DPM will still be bigger than when all their shots bounce.

 

Im not saying that . My idea was so people need to have AP for lights/mediums at well, since they can pen is with AP as well, and since they will have more AP, full gold wont be effective as it is now.

I do agree with premium tanks issues with is sad, but since premium ammo is going to be changed as WG suggest(laughing in back while typing), all premium tanks will have to get changes on gold ammo



Simeon85 #8 Posted 30 August 2018 - 02:29 PM

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No.

 

1. It'll make no difference to whines as the majority of it comes from people who just want their tanks to be invincible and they will just see you penned them with premium ammo and complain regardless of the damage. People whine their heads off when they get penned by -2 tanks, even those -2 tanks often have lower penetration on their premium rounds than standard pen of that tier.  For example most tier 8s have less pen on premium rounds than most tier 9 and 10 mediums, so tier 10 heavies have an easy chance of bouncing it but people still whine.

 

2. As mentioned above penning is higher DPM than bouncing so most people won't care.

 

3. It's basically a boost in HP to most armoured tanks and they currently dominate the game. Does the Maus or Type 5 effectively need another 20-25% hit points? No, those tanks are already very strong if not borderline OP, could you imagine an Object 430U or 268 v4 with say 2500 hit points? Those tanks would be horribly OP and don't need that boost.

 

4. It would make being bottom tier even more horrible than it is now, 240 alpha tier 8 meds already do pathetic damage to tier 10s and you now want them doing 180-190? Meaning they could do like 150 on a low roll, some tier 8s could literally run out of ammo trying to kill a Maus. 

 

IMO no change to premium ammo can be done in isolation, MM, maps, tank balance all plays a role. 



SevernaSnaga #9 Posted 30 August 2018 - 03:22 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 30 August 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

No.

 

2. As mentioned above penning is higher DPM than bouncing so most people won't care.

 

4. It would make being bottom tier even more horrible than it is now, 240 alpha tier 8 meds already do pathetic damage to tier 10s and you now want them doing 180-190? Meaning they could do like 150 on a low roll, some tier 8s could literally run out of ammo trying to kill a Maus. 

 

 

2. Yes, but people load full gold and shoot everything, this will make them have to carry less gold if they want to be more comepetitive against LTs and low armor MTs

4. I said up to 30dmg, not 60dmg

I do agree it would make Jap HT better, but you will have to shoot 9 times instead of 8 to do same dmg, so not   too much if they nerf Jap HT HE damage



Balc0ra #10 Posted 30 August 2018 - 03:24 PM

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View PostSevernaSnaga, on 30 August 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

 

Im not saying that . My idea was so people need to have AP for lights/mediums at well, since they can pen is with AP as well, and since they will have more AP, full gold wont be effective as it is now.

I do agree with premium tanks issues with is sad, but since premium ammo is going to be changed as WG suggest(laughing in back while typing), all premium tanks will have to get changes on gold ammo

 

Depends on how they do it. A damage reduction might cause reactions. But say if they change how the ammo works etc. As in say HEAT works differently as a main ammo type vs as a secondary. Then it might be different. 

JCD3nton #11 Posted 30 August 2018 - 03:35 PM

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It's amazing how WG is postponing this as far as possible. Community demands a date.

Edited by JCD3nton, 30 August 2018 - 05:20 PM.


RinTin_NL #12 Posted 30 August 2018 - 03:42 PM

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Just remove gold ammo and make the machmaker +1. Problem solved and 10 times more fun!

 

 

 

 


Edited by RinTin_NL, 30 August 2018 - 03:50 PM.


AliceUnchained #13 Posted 30 August 2018 - 06:02 PM

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Not this again... Why do you feel the need to create a new thread about this? Your suggestion has been suggested dozens of times before already, so stick to existing threads. We don't need more of this nonsense.

 

Also, how many players actually play with 'full gold load outs' according to you?



Bordhaw #14 Posted 30 August 2018 - 06:17 PM

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View PostSevernaSnaga, on 30 August 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

I want to see your feedback, what if premium ammo did a bit less damage than standard counter party, just a tiny bit(1-5 for lower tiers:lower alpha/5-30 for higher tiers:higher alpha)

This will stop people from having full gold loadout in a tank and make them use AP as penable tanks, and if  they dont, they will lose DPM.

If you get shot by gold in a LT/MT, It will fell better since he didnt do full damage of AP.

 



fighting_falcon93 #15 Posted 30 August 2018 - 06:19 PM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 30 August 2018 - 06:02 PM, said:

Also, how many players actually play with 'full gold load outs' according to you?

 

It's not about full gold load outs. I'm pretty sure we all can agree that it doesn't matter if someone is shooting premium ammo at a Leopard 1 or Batchat. The problem is about shooting premium ammo on stuff like Jaegeroos, T-62As, E-100s etc etc. and in those cases you don't need any full gold load out to completely mess up tanks that would have strong armor if there was only standard ammo.

 

This is why a "only 20% premium ammo"-solution is completely useless. The current premium ammo should be removed and re-implemented as standard ammo with equal prizing and different characteristics to standard ammo. And everyone would need to learn to play this game without lol-penning everything from the front.



AliceUnchained #16 Posted 30 August 2018 - 06:48 PM

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View Postfighting_falcon93, on 30 August 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

It's not about full gold load outs.

 

Why do you presume to know what it is not about better than the OP, who actually wrote exactly that? Have you read the starting post? Here, let me help you:

 

View PostSevernaSnaga, on 30 August 2018 - 01:16 PM, said:

This will stop people from having full gold loadout in a tank and make them use AP as penable tanks, and if  they dont, they will lose DPM.

 

Reading comprehension and context seem to be the biggest challenges for most around here it would seem...



fighting_falcon93 #17 Posted 30 August 2018 - 06:57 PM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 30 August 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

Reading comprehension and context seem to be the biggest challenges for most around here it would seem...

 

Says the one that completely avoided the points I wrote back to you. Good job. The problem with idiots are that they always think that everyone else is an idiot. It doesn't matter what OP wrote or what OP thinks. I quoted YOUR post and wrote YOU a post in return. But then ofc, if you have no better answer it's always easier to find an excuse. Sorry, I have no more time for you.


Edited by fighting_falcon93, 30 August 2018 - 06:58 PM.


slitth #18 Posted 30 August 2018 - 07:06 PM

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I would go with a reload penalty based on the tier of the gun.

 

The higher tier gun, the bigger the penalty.



Cannes76 #19 Posted 30 August 2018 - 07:07 PM

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WG is working on a complete overhaul of premium ammo, there was some talk of the work being well under way. Hopefully some solid news of the direction they are going will surface soon.

SevernaSnaga #20 Posted 30 August 2018 - 07:17 PM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 30 August 2018 - 06:02 PM, said:

Not this again... Why do you feel the need to create a new thread about this? Your suggestion has been suggested dozens of times before already, so stick to existing threads. We don't need more of this nonsense.

 

Also, how many players actually play with 'full gold load outs' according to you?

 

OP is here!

1. I came to forum few weeks ago, and never saw thread about this.

2. When i asked for tips on MT-25, few of people said, second gun, full gold.

i went to wot replays just to find full gold replays.

i decided to go full AP myself, making better battle results than the ones with full gold, 2 marking the tank in process.

So yes, i know few people that use full gold, while its completely pointless.

Players concerns should be positioning, not peak, pen someones front(that shouldnt be penable), and hide.






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