Jump to content


XVM arty focus, the reality.


  • Please log in to reply
483 replies to this topic

Poll: Did you think XVM arty focus was a bigger or smaller effect than that showed in this thread? (90 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

Did you think XVM arty focus was a bigger or smaller effect than that showed in this thread?

  1. I thought it was a bigger effect than this. (30 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  2. I thought it was a smaller effect than this. (21 votes [23.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.33%

  3. I though it was always about this level of effect. (39 votes [43.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.33%

Vote Hide poll

Wintermute_1 #1 Posted 05 September 2018 - 01:12 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 43682 battles
  • 1,440
  • Member since:
    11-25-2013

The HE hits per game of very good players are more or less within the range of HE hits per game for average / bad players because although XVM arty focus is an effect, its a small effect.

 

Over the past few days  31st August - 4th Sept I played 100 games and noted down the top tier in the battle, total number of arty in the game (both sides) and number of arty using activated XVM. So 9, 4, 1 means top tier 9, 4 arty in the game (2 per team) and of the 4 arty 1 had XVM activated. I didn't record results where I played arty myself and forgot once or twice to record at the start of a session (the latest update messed with the mod that allows me to see which players have XVM so now I can only see that info on the loading screen but not in the game itself, so if I forgot at the start but remembered half way through there was nothing I could do about it). This only happened on one or two occasions.

The data is in the order I played the games, it's the top tier of the game not the tier of the tank I was playing myself. 100 games isn't a vast sample size but statistically should be more than enough. 

 

I've tried to make these figures as transparent as possible and have kept them in the chronological order they were played in so that if anyone has the capacity to check the tiers I played for the period, feel free to do so. Also at the moment, I should have a replay that relates to any game within the stats, if you want to see it, ask and I'll post it up (regardless of how terrible I may have played in it). Although I think they get over written eventually, not sure. 

 

Alternatively, keep track of 100 games yourself, its only 3 numbers to write down (2 really as top tier isn't absolutely necessary). 

 

Spoiler

 

So that's 100 games played of which:

 

Tier 10 = 27 

Tier 9 = 24

Tier 8 = 25

Tier 7 = 15

Tier 6 = 9

 

Average top tier = 8.45

 

Games with no arty = 17

Games with 1 enemy arty = 31 

Games with 2 enemy arty = 36

Games with 3 enemy arty = 16

 

Total arty appearing = 302

Total arty with activated XVM appearing = 65

 

Average number of arty on the enemy team (302/2=151/100) = 1.51  A figure that corresponds almost exactly with the average number of arty per game VBAaddict calculates from the total number of arty games played compared to the overall number of games played. 

 

The % chance the enemy arty has active XVM (302/2=151, 65/2=32.5, 32.5/151) = 21.5%

 

So near 80% of the time the enemy arty wouldn't even have the capacity to focus on good players, or put another way less than 1 out of 4 games there will be an arty player capable of focusing you. 

 

Which is why HE hits per game fall within the same sort of range for players of different skill level, most of the time arty doesn't have the capacity to focus and therefore its effect is small.

 

 

 


Edited by Wintermute_1, 06 September 2018 - 03:36 PM.


goodman528 #2 Posted 05 September 2018 - 02:37 AM

    Private

  • Player
  • 11851 battles
  • 18
  • [FACE] FACE
  • Member since:
    05-07-2012

I have xvm active and I play artillery. I take whatever is the best shot at the time my shell reloads, that is rarely against a good player, because they tend to move backwards and forwards all of the time, which is very annoying to watch in top down view and makes the cursor jump when they move across it. WG need to fix the artillery cursor so it doesn't jump when it moves over an opponent tank.

 

Why do good players in tanks whine so much about artillery? Artillery has almost zero influence on the outcome of the game and it is very very easy to avoid being hit by artillery. They should try playing against a good carrier in world of warships, then they will see what true helplessness looks like.



Desyatnik_Pansy #3 Posted 05 September 2018 - 03:16 AM

    Bartender

  • Player
  • 16076 battles
  • 25,758
  • [-GLO-] -GLO-
  • Member since:
    04-19-2013

View Postgoodman528, on 05 September 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

Why do good players in tanks whine so much about artillery? Artillery has almost zero influence on the outcome of the game and it is very very easy to avoid being hit by artillery. They should try playing against a good carrier in world of warships, then they will see what true helplessness looks like.

 

Pretty simple really. We like to contribute the most to the battle. You have to be alive to do so, and the more health you have the more likely you're able to do so since if you were to lose say 50% Of your health early on, you might not be able to make certain plays late-game as a result. As such, we like to avoid taking damage if possible, though this shouldn't be compared to someone sitting in the back of his or her base in their Heavy that's too scared that their paint might get scratched. If you do have to take damage, it's always preferable to deal damage back to the enemy so as to not lose health for absolutely nothing.

That said, we also are more likely to know what positions on a map matter and how to appropriately contest them in the way that is most beneficial to the team, while at the same time still trying to take into account losing as little health as possible. However, it is not uncommon that these vital map positions tend to put you in the line of fire of artillery. This is a class that can damage you regardless of what you're doing and yet you cannot deal damage back. It could be a light splash for maybe 50-100, a heavier one at 300-400 Or even a direct hit that results in even more damage (this is of course variable to the tank you are playing and the artillery hitting you); all of them equate to damage done to your tank that cannot be reciprocated. This is important, since while derp tanks such as the Japanese heavies can do similar and arguably more reliable damage, you are also likely able to return fire to them. There's also crew damage from artillery that can be wildly unpredictable, but we'll not really delve into that and just roughly summarise this on even if the artillery purely stuns you, it has still affected you (what immediately comes to mind is a killing shot I missed on someone last night simply because I got stunned a moment before I fired, and that almost cost us the game, even though I took no actual damage from the shot itself).

 

The problem then becomes one of how willing you are to take that risk. Not contesting that map position could very well result in your team losing, which is not preferable to us. However, you can't be arty-safe fighting over most vital positions on maps, as arty-safe means two things (and please for the love of God don't reply and try to persuade me that "moving erratically" is arty-safe, because it really isn't):

-to be unspotted, as I would wager the average arty indeed would not be interested in taking blindshots and you are able to move freely without the artillery being able to follow your movements

-to situate yourself behind a large building/block of buildings or a mountain. This is heavily map-dependant though, and even on maps where you can do it, the position might only be effective from one angle and not another. Furthermore, the position itself might not actually allow you to effectively face the enemy in front of you, even if you are safe from the artillery

 

You end up having to choose between taking artillery fire as you attempt to contest the position, or not contesting the position and as I said, this likely lowers the chances for you to contribute to the game, further lowering the chances that your team wins. I can't speak for everyone, but one of the things I hate the most is the feeling of being useless in a battle. However, as you can assume from the large wall of text above, I also don't like taking damage, especially when I cannot return it nor can I predict how much it will actually do and very much so when I don't feel like I've actually misplayed. It is not that arty makes me feel helpless, it's that I feel punished for actively trying to contribute.

 

 

I actually feel I should apologise to Winter for derailing his thread, so I hope not to turn the thread away from his intentions just because of this post. But otherwise I do hope I've given you a valid response to your question.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #4 Posted 05 September 2018 - 03:18 AM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 28433 battles
  • 2,150
  • Member since:
    06-13-2015

View Postgoodman528, on 05 September 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:✅

02:23 Added after 5 minutes

View Postgoodman528, on 05 September 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

Why do good players in tanks whine so much about artillery? Artillery has almost zero influence on the outcome of the game and it is very very easy to avoid being hit by artillery. They should try playing against a good carrier in world of warships, then they will see what true helplessness looks like.

 

Because they claim arty is apparently a useless class that is a waste of a spot on the team because they add nothing to the game and are unable to influence the game or carry..... Until they're the ones being shot at and then suddenly arty is death incarnate raining fire from above, dominating the map and sitting down any form of active play.

 

So it just kind of depends on their time of the month really.


Edited by NUKLEAR_SLUG, 05 September 2018 - 03:23 AM.


8126Jakobsson #5 Posted 05 September 2018 - 06:21 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 65080 battles
  • 3,248
  • Member since:
    12-20-2014

View Postgoodman528, on 05 September 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

it is very very easy to avoid being hit by artillery

 

If one decided not to participate in battle, yes.  



Enforcer1975 #6 Posted 05 September 2018 - 06:51 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 20760 battles
  • 10,783
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    05-04-2014

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 05 September 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

 

Their claims are quite weird.

"Arty is useless because it has an impact on my gameplay when they are present".....So which one is it now snowflakes?


Edited by Enforcer1975, 05 September 2018 - 06:52 AM.


zlaja031 #7 Posted 05 September 2018 - 07:21 AM

    Corporal

  • Player
  • 7167 battles
  • 150
  • Member since:
    03-14-2012

XVM or not, i hate when arty hit me. Especially on blind (yesterday) Malinovka 1vs3 end game, and always pushers get a hit not campers. 

 

I wish all the worst to the arty "players". 



Cobra6 #8 Posted 05 September 2018 - 07:32 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Beta Tester
  • 16332 battles
  • 15,682
  • [RGT] RGT
  • Member since:
    09-17-2010

View PostWintermute_1, on 05 September 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

The HE hits per game of very good players are more or less within the range of HE hits per game for average / bad players because although XVM arty focus is an effect, its small effect.

 

Good players just manage to avoid more shots, that is all.

It doesn't mean the volume of fire good players receive from SPG's is the same as for average players.

 

XVM focus by arty is a serious issue for the better players as they have to spend much more time trying to avoid getting hit then actually playing the match compared to average/bad players.

 

Cobra 6



Baldrickk #9 Posted 05 September 2018 - 07:46 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 29905 battles
  • 14,099
  • [-TAH-] -TAH-
  • Member since:
    03-03-2013

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 05 September 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

Because they claim arty is apparently a useless class that is a waste of a spot on the team because they add nothing to the game and are unable to influence the game or carry..... Until they're the ones being shot at and then suddenly arty is death incarnate raining fire from above, dominating the map and sitting down any form of active play.

 

So it just kind of depends on their time of the month really.

 

Just goes to show that you don't understand the argument :facepalm:

 

Arty is simultaneously bad at influencing a battle, but can project the influence it has across the entire map, and there is no counter to that influence. 

 

That's the problem.  It's an inherently broken mechanic. 

 

View PostCobra6, on 05 September 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

Good players just manage to avoid more shots, that is all.

It doesn't mean the volume of fire good players receive from SPG's is the same as for average players.

 

I personally don't think that xvm focus is hugely significant, I believe that it's how and where players play that influences who gets shot at by arty. 

 

We were always told that arty is supposed to counter campers, something that it blatantly does not do.  It's players on the frontlines that get spotted and shot at. 


Edited by Baldrickk, 05 September 2018 - 07:49 AM.


Consett_Steel #10 Posted 05 September 2018 - 07:49 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 17421 battles
  • 540
  • Member since:
    08-18-2012

Well done Wintermute for putting a lot of time and effort into trying to analyse a complicated picture.

Unfortunately "the feels" appears to be just as valid an approach for some forumites so I hope you don't feel as if you are banging your head against the wall.



Baldrickk #11 Posted 05 September 2018 - 08:01 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Player
  • 29905 battles
  • 14,099
  • [-TAH-] -TAH-
  • Member since:
    03-03-2013

View PostConsett_Steel, on 05 September 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

Well done Wintermute for putting a lot of time and effort into trying to analyse a complicated picture.

Unfortunately "the feels" appears to be just as valid an approach for some forumites so I hope you don't feel as if you are banging your head against the wall.

The numbers in the OP don't tell the full story.

They are part if it, but it's like looking at a player's cap points and declaring them a good or bad player based off that.

 

You have to ask why the better a player is, the more likely they are to be anti-arty.

You have to forget the xvm argument to a degree. 

Even if 30% or so do focus with XVM as per numbers in OP (and isn't 30% actively targeting better players not significant?) what about the arty without it? Where do their shots go?

 

You have to take into consideration that it can hit targets that nothing else can, after that person has broken line of sight with all enemies and should be safe. 

 

 You also have to remember that better players should also be better at avoiding arty,  yet they get hit just as often... hmm



jack_timber #12 Posted 05 September 2018 - 08:11 AM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 32961 battles
  • 2,004
  • Member since:
    07-26-2014

Interesting results, well compiled.

According to a recent thread your findings should have been nearly 100% of arty players using XVM!

So arty XVM focussing players has been debunked.

Just wait till others try to derail this thread.....



Tiddy #13 Posted 05 September 2018 - 08:21 AM

    Lance-corporal

  • Player
  • 22639 battles
  • 60
  • Member since:
    03-21-2011

I've been trying my luck on the spg-15 Mission for the T-55 the last few days and to be fair, if the situation allows it and I have the choice between shooting a very good player (according to xvm) and one who is average or worse I will of course go for the former.

I rather stop someone with the potential to influence the game heavily than someone who might be able to.

But then again it's highly dependable on the situation.

 

In that sense I wouldn't be able to "focus" on someone without xvm.



_b_ #14 Posted 05 September 2018 - 08:35 AM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 55128 battles
  • 3,985
  • Member since:
    04-06-2011

Since none of the poll option took this comments into consideration: "The HE hits per game of very good players are more or less within the range of HE hits per game for average / bad players because although XVM arty focus is an effect, its small effect." ...i didn't vote.

 

Like some mentioned above ... ask yourself how come a good player who knows how to move and where and what will most likely minimize being clicked ... still get the about the same amount of HE hits ...and we all know how much of a RNG-game arty is ... why is it about the same??

 

They get focused!  Not all matches and not by all arty in a match ... but over time enough that even if they do all they can to avoid it they still get blasted as much as a new player going up in plain sight and not doing anything right.

 

tl:dr remove in-game stats being able to be shown, and limit arty to 1 each side ...or give us EU2 as clicker free :great: ...come'on WG I dare you..try for a week or a month, one server without arty! :D

 

 



Simeon85 #15 Posted 05 September 2018 - 08:40 AM

    Major

  • Player
  • 1097 battles
  • 2,724
  • Member since:
    04-19-2013

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes, your personal experience from a 100 games is not going to be that relevant considering you are a light green rated XVM player and in those tiers you'll be average so there would little reason for anyone to focus you. 

 

Also considering XVM says 3.7 million plus players use XVM regularly, that 21% figure looks off and is probably a symptom of the small sample size.

 

As Cobra says, the number of hits is does not really paint the picture, I can only get hit once or twice by an xvm focusing arty player in a game, and due to me being aware of arty those might only be minor hits or splashes, but it doesn't mean the same player has not tried to hit me multiple more times and has basically spent all game doing it.

 

This basically refers back to my first point, you have not experienced it so you are not really in a position to talk about it in any authority. When you are in a tier 8 heavy, behind a rock, in a tier 10 game and a tier 10 arty is firing blind at your position whilst your team mates in tier 10s blunder around in the open, then maybe you can start to talk about XVM focus. Examples like that happen to me all the time and I don't need XVM on to know what the player is doing as it's Occam's razor. 

 

You are putting too much into HE hits per battle, when there are so many factors that could influence this, like class, someone playing lights that is really good might have lower HE hits per game because lights are hard to hit, does not mean arty doesn't focus them. Someone bad at the game could just sit out in the open in their heavies never moving, they'll get hit all the time.

 

Someone might play more lower tiers where there are more derp HE on tanks compared to higher tiers for example.

 

Finally better players are just better at avoiding hits and avoiding arty than bad players, yet in many cases their HE hits per game is still higher, in some cases its 50% or more higher, that to me would be evidence that they attract more arty attention.

 

As Baldrick says, not all of this will be from XVM focus, some will just be from their natural position of being front line and being active.

 

But then that is arty punishing players for being active and trying to win, which is one of the fundamental problems of the class anyway, so whatever you look at it, these are all bad marks for the class. 


Edited by Simeon85, 05 September 2018 - 08:42 AM.


Cobra6 #16 Posted 05 September 2018 - 09:49 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Beta Tester
  • 16332 battles
  • 15,682
  • [RGT] RGT
  • Member since:
    09-17-2010

View PostSimeon85, on 05 September 2018 - 07:40 AM, said:

This basically refers back to my first point, you have not experienced it so you are not really in a position to talk about it in any authority. When you are in a tier 8 heavy, behind a rock, in a tier 10 game and a tier 10 arty is firing blind at your position whilst your team mates in tier 10s blunder around in the open, then maybe you can start to talk about XVM focus. Examples like that happen to me all the time and I don't need XVM on to know what the player is doing as it's Occam's razor. 

 

Yeah the joys of being chased around the map in your light tank by arty allthewhile the top tier heavy tanks sit in the open slaughtering their team, not once receiving an arty hit.......Such amazing, much wow.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 05 September 2018 - 09:50 AM.


Simeon85 #17 Posted 05 September 2018 - 10:00 AM

    Major

  • Player
  • 1097 battles
  • 2,724
  • Member since:
    04-19-2013

View PostCobra6, on 05 September 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

 

Yeah the joys of being chased around the map in your light tank by arty allthewhile the top tier heavy tanks sit in the open slaughtering their team, not once receiving an arty hit.......Such amazing, much wow.

 

Cobra 6

 

Exactly, plus any high rated player knows that XVM focus is a thing and it's always in your mind when you are playing in games with arty, when the arty has a few goes at you early on you adjust your play and end up playing more defensively, more campy etc. because you know that arty is constantly looking to target you.

 

So you might not actually get hit at all, but the arty player is still impacting your game, he's essentially forcing you to camp or at least play more passively, which in turn will limit arty hits, so the 'HE hits per battle' would be low, but the impact is way higher. 



Igor_BL #18 Posted 05 September 2018 - 10:13 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 38731 battles
  • 1,294
  • [GX] GX
  • Member since:
    06-10-2015

again, mediocre players (or average if you like that word more) are doubting that better players are getting hit by arty more. a lot more.

 

why is it hard to accept?



WindSplitter1 #19 Posted 05 September 2018 - 10:21 AM

    Major

  • Player
  • 15663 battles
  • 2,545
  • [ORDEM] ORDEM
  • Member since:
    02-07-2016

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 05 September 2018 - 02:18 AM, said:

 

 

View PostEnforcer1975, on 05 September 2018 - 05:51 AM, said:

Their claims are quite weird.

"Arty is useless because it has an impact on my gameplay when they are present".....So which one is it now snowflakes?

 

LMAO



Vule777 #20 Posted 05 September 2018 - 10:21 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 23461 battles
  • 1,294
  • Member since:
    02-28-2017

Is this allowed topic now?

 

Lets change the story, I tried to be nice and not to focus but then I realized that there is no way that some light won't focus on me. It happens numerous times that light chased me and couldn't kill me in 5 shots, or because i was in fast arty or he reloads slow or he missed, BUT he never hit me just once and go on other side, so why not, I am for aggressive arty focus and before this stupid whining I wasn't focus that much, but now you give me wind in my back so I will focus to death.

 

There, now start all with insults but I will focus even more then, I will install Xvm 2 times, old and new one, just in case. :)


Edited by Vule777, 05 September 2018 - 10:22 AM.





2 user(s) are reading this topic

1 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users


    Dorander