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Give the Leopard 1 the Patton treatment.

leopard 1 buff german tanks tier 10

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Poll: Replace the Leo 1 with the 1A4, a bit like the Patton's remodel? (31 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

Do you agree with the suggested improvements for the Leo 1?

  1. Yes, they're good (3 votes [9.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.68%

  2. They're not good enough (3 votes [9.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.68%

  3. They're too much (4 votes [12.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.90%

  4. No, I don't care about the Leo 1 getting buffed (2 votes [6.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.45%

  5. Dude, you're wasting your time. It would be nice tho. (5 votes [16.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.13%

  6. (edit, added) Don't buff armour, just the gun (or mobility etc.) (14 votes [45.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 45.16%

Would the proposed improvements make the Leo 1 relevant?

  1. Yes (19 votes [61.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.29%

  2. No (12 votes [38.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.71%

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Paul_Kouadio #1 Posted 05 September 2018 - 09:47 AM

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We all know that the Patton was kind of remodeled at some point (9.20 to 9.20.1), and it received a turret armor buff. That was not a huge buff, but it certainly improved the tank (I think, I didn't know jack about tier X in those days). Now I come to the Leopard 1. Yes, we all know just how useless and uncompetitive it is, let's not even list out all the crappy aspects of the tank. The funniest thing is that the original Leopard, introduced in 1965, was a far cry from the later modifications, so the one we have in-game is actually very historically accurate. I propose a buff, to bring it back to relevancy somewhat, by simply replacing it with an improved version. Note that everything I suggest is also quite historically accurate. If you want proof, just tell me:)

#MakeGermanTanksGreatAgain

 

Leopard 1A4 - Introduced in 1974

 

Spoiler

 

Check out a 3D model of it here: https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/u8a57a8bc-237e-4105-ae30-b96611feaa27/Leopard-1A4?hl=en (it's not perfect... you can check out some pictures online)

 

Armor model: The 1A4 retained the 1A3's turret, which is very different from the original. It was 1.5x more effective than the 1A2's turret, which itself was thicker than the original's. So, turret armor is better; 1.8-2 original effectiveness (think of a TVP T50/51's turret front). The tank also has side-skirts. The mantlet is also much better. I also think the upper glacis was made stronger but not sure.

 

Gun stats: The 1A4 has much better stabilisation than the original. So dispersion values are improved:

at 100m, 0.30 to 0.29 (nominal)

moving, 0.17 to 0.12

tank traverse, 0.17 to 0.12 (think of a AMX 30B's gun handling or a Super Conq.... very good, but not as good as Russian meds)

Penetration would be better, from 268mm to 278mm (take that K-91:trollface:) * this might not be necessary

 

Mobility-wise, it's terrain resistances would be better:

hard 0.67

med 0.76

soft 1.63 (an improvement of -0.10 on all resistances)

It would also lose some power/weight, because it is heavier, at 42.2tons, so a decrease in hp/ton from 20.75 to 19.67.

 

So, in conclusion, would the Leopard 1A4 be OP? I don't think so. It would have a more usable gun, and armor that doesn't suck at tier X. It's mobility would be hampered a little, on uphill terrain.

 

TL;DR: Buff the Leopard 1's soft stats, remodel the tank and armour model, nerf it's mobility ever so slightly.

 

Bonus : Now, to quickly address the tanks before it :hiding:

Leo PTA: improve camo by ~4%

Indien-Panzer: lower aimtime from 2.3s to 2.1s on 9cm Kanone

VK 30.02D (and Tiger I, and all other tanks): improved pen on 8,8 cm Kw.K. 36 L/56 (probably will never happen tho... http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/660632-the-88-cm-kwk-36-aka-short-barreled-88/)

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Paul_Kouadio, 05 September 2018 - 12:00 PM.


Simeon85 #2 Posted 05 September 2018 - 10:09 AM

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No more armour power creep IMO, don't see much point turning the Leopard into another turreted tier 10 med, you already have the Cent AX and Patton for that, why add another similar tank?

 

What needs to happen is it's strengths are improved so it can be excellent in the role it is supposed to play which is mobile sniper. 

 

Been suggested multiple times but basically -

 

  • Buff soft stats on movement to a decent level, like 0.13/0.14 ish, so not top level medium on the move dispersion but much better than it is (currently 0.17/0.17).
  • Buff turret dispersion down to like 0.04 which accentuates it's sniper role.
  • Buff shell velocity to 1700 m/s like K-91.
  • Buff pen to around 280 - 285
  • Increase alpha damage to about 420 
  • Decrease DPM to balance out the alpha buff, down to about 2.6k. 
  • Buff accuracy to a meaningful level, it;s currently 0.29, it should be more like 0.20 - 0.22 
  • Buff aim time to 1.63s which again is on par with K-91 (currently is 1.82s)

 

Keep the rest of the tank the same.

 

Basically what you have their is a tank that hits harder (more alpha), has more pen, more shell velocity and proper accuracy so it is one of the best 'snipers' in the game.

 

It still wouldn't be an amazing tank because of the meta/maps and because it's paper but it would at least have advantages over other meds and heavies at long range. 


Edited by Simeon85, 05 September 2018 - 02:17 PM.


Oldewolfe #3 Posted 05 September 2018 - 10:39 AM

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With the Leopard I accessible from 2 Places in the Light Tank Line, I was going to stick to more Vision/Camo/Scouting type Skills on the Leopard when I got there.....           It you want a Different Role, go that route, keep it an Extension of the Scout Tanks...        

 

Soft Stats may well be the way to go as the Overall of the Tank remains the same with Subtle Improvments underneath....       Improve it's Sniping ability, but not Swede Like, we already have enough issues with those....        I'll be thinking more on this, at work right now....



fighting_falcon93 #4 Posted 05 September 2018 - 11:09 AM

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To be honest, I'd prefer if they buffed the gun stats instead of the armor stats. The Leopard 1 has never been about its armor, but about its gun. So in my opinion it would be better if they buffed its DPM, accuracy and aim time. Maybe they could even give it a bit higher penetration and/or alpha.


Edited by fighting_falcon93, 05 September 2018 - 11:11 AM.


arthurwellsley #5 Posted 05 September 2018 - 11:21 AM

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View PostSimeon85, on 05 September 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

No more armour power creep IMO, don't see much point turning the Leopard into another turreted tier 10 med, you already have the Cent AX and Patton for that, why add another similar tank?

 

What needs to happen is it's strengths are improved so it can be excellent in the role it is supposed to play which is mobile sniper. 

 

Been suggested multiple times but basically -

 

  • Buff soft stats on movement to a decent level, like 0.13/0.14 ish, so not top level medium on the move dispersion but much better than it is (currently 0.17/0.17).
  • Buff turret dispersion down to like 0.04 which accentuates it's sniper role.
  • Buff shell velocity to 1700 m/s like K-91.
  • Buff pen to around 280 - 285
  • Increase alpha damage to about 420 
  • Decrease DPM to balance out the alpha buff, down to about 2.6k. 
  • Buff accuracy to a meaningful level, it;s currently 0.29, it should be more like 0.22 - 0.24 
  • Buff aim time to 1.63s which again is on par with K-91 (currently is 1.82s)

 

Keep the rest of the tank the same.

 

Basically what you have their is a tank that hits harder (more alpha), has more pen, more shell velocity and proper accuracy so it is one of the best 'snipers' in the game.

 

It still wouldn't be an amazing tank because of the meta/maps and because it's paper but it would at least have advantages over other meds and heavies at long range. 

 

Prefer these buffs to the OP's suggested buffs.

 

No way to vote in the poll that the OP has it all wrong in giving the Leopard armour, instead of just making it a better glass cannon.



Paul_Kouadio #6 Posted 05 September 2018 - 11:57 AM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 05 September 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

 

Prefer these buffs to the OP's suggested buffs.

 

No way to vote in the poll that the OP has it all wrong in giving the Leopard armour, instead of just making it a better glass 

 

Okay, understood. It seems you generally would prefer the Leopard to retain the poor armour. As for alpha damage, considering that high alpha is becoming a new meta, do we really need more alpha on this tank? Also, it's lower DPM is by design, compared to the AMX and the Patton for example. So it isn't fast firing, really. Taking what Simeon said, I do think that lower aimtime, better dispersion, higher shell velocity, higher pen are all good. Maybe mobility should be also enhanced somehow. I'll amend the opening post. I don't want historical accuracy to be completely ignored tho. So maybe the Leo 1A5 will be more suitable (it had better shells and even better fire control)



Simeon85 #7 Posted 05 September 2018 - 12:32 PM

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View PostPaul_Kouadio, on 05 September 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

 

Okay, understood. It seems you generally would prefer the Leopard to retain the poor armour. As for alpha damage, considering that high alpha is becoming a new meta, do we really need more alpha on this tank? Also, it's lower DPM is by design, compared to the AMX and the Patton for example. So it isn't fast firing, really. Taking what Simeon said, I do think that lower aimtime, better dispersion, higher shell velocity, higher pen are all good. Maybe mobility should be also enhanced somehow. I'll amend the opening post. I don't want historical accuracy to be completely ignored tho. So maybe the Leo 1A5 will be more suitable (it had better shells and even better fire control)

 

The higher alpha has been suggested for two reasons -

 

1. The K-91 is kind of the low alpha/high DPM sniper med, so this would make the Leo the high alpha/lower DPM sniper med.

 

2. In sniping/long range engagements you rarely get to shoot at a target repeatedly, so DPM becomes less important, a high alpha strike gives it more punch for those one off sniper shots. It's also hardly game breaking alpha, there are plenty of 440 plus alpha guns on tier 10, it just further differentiates the tanks from the other 390 NATO meds, giving it a clear advantage to make up for it's disadvantages in other areas (i.e armour and DPM). 

 

Currently the Leo 1 is a little bit better at long range sniping than most other tier 10s, but quite a bit worse at medium to close ranges, similar to heavies, it's decently better at longer ranges than most heavies, but much much worse at close to medium ranges, thus the key IMO is to make the tank much much better at longer ranges than what it faces to balance out it's failings at closer ranges (namely lack of armour).

 

To use an an analogy wit personal firearms -

 

Currently the Russian meds are a bit like SMGs, good at close range, decent at medium range and ok at long range.

The NATO meds are a bit like Assault Rifles, decent at close range, good at medium range and decent at long range.

 

The Leo 1 currently is like a bog standard bolt action rifle, bad at close range, ok at medium range, good at long range. In many FPS's there is not much point taking a bolt action rifle over and assault rifle because an assault rifle can do pretty much what a bolt action can do at longer ranges whilst being way better at other ranges. Just like the Leo 1 offers little at longer ranges that a Cent AX or Patton can't do, but those tanks with their armour fair better at medium to close range. 

 

What you want to do is turn that bolt-action rifle into a .50 cal Barret, i.e add more punch, add a clip, add a scope etc. It will still be not that great at close to medium ranges compared to an Assault Rifle, but at longer ranges it is the clear best. 



Thejagdpanther #8 Posted 05 September 2018 - 01:28 PM

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But the dispersion it isn't connected with the sigma?

Leo looks to me like a sneaky sneaky click and run tank that need to poke out, shoot and relocate.

The problem looks more like any other tank with +0,35 that can do the same with better consistency, and of course better damage.

The simeoncure looks ok but practically during the game nothing would change (shoot routine). When I play with some friends with sado-leo-moments, they tell me that it miss incredible shoots at distances that a 0,29 gun should not miss - while the classic IS7 at 350 snap him with ease.

General game sigma looks to me a bigger problem that fkup much more tanks. Fix it and leo will get some love. Plus of course some simeonpills.



FizzleMcSnizzle #9 Posted 05 September 2018 - 01:57 PM

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Please, just nerf the OP tanks. We know what they are; WG knows what they are. The fact they aren't rebalanced every month is pure bovine excreta. WG's attempts at balancing tanks methodically, with precision, have invariably failed miserably, so making an educated guess and nudging a few sliders to the left will hardly bring about the game's downfall. The company sitting on its [edited]and taking six months to do anything will.

Edited by FizzleMcSnizzle, 05 September 2018 - 01:58 PM.


Paul_Kouadio #10 Posted 05 September 2018 - 02:00 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 05 September 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

 

The higher alpha has been suggested for two reasons -

 

1. The K-91 is kind of the low alpha/high DPM sniper med, so this would make the Leo the high alpha/lower DPM sniper med.

 

2. In sniping/long range engagements you rarely get to shoot at a target repeatedly, so DPM becomes less important, a high alpha strike gives it more punch for those one off sniper shots. It's also hardly game breaking alpha, there are plenty of 440 plus alpha guns on tier 10, it just further differentiates the tanks from the other 390 NATO meds, giving it a clear advantage to make up for it's disadvantages in other areas (i.e armour and DPM). 

 

Currently the Leo 1 is a little bit better at long range sniping than most other tier 10s, but quite a bit worse at medium to close ranges, similar to heavies, it's decently better at longer ranges than most heavies, but much much worse at close to medium ranges, thus the key IMO is to make the tank much much better at longer ranges than what it faces to balance out it's failings at closer ranges (namely lack of armour).

 

To use an an analogy wit personal firearms -

 

Currently the Russian meds are a bit like SMGs, good at close range, decent at medium range and ok at long range.

The NATO meds are a bit like Assault Rifles, decent at close range, good at medium range and decent at long range.

 

The Leo 1 currently is like a bog standard bolt action rifle, bad at close range, ok at medium range, good at long range. In many FPS's there is not much point taking a bolt action rifle over and assault rifle because an assault rifle can do pretty much what a bolt action can do at longer ranges whilst being way better at other ranges. Just like the Leo 1 offers little at longer ranges that a Cent AX or Patton can't do, but those tanks with their armour fair better at medium to close range. 

 

What you want to do is turn that bolt-action rifle into a .50 cal Barret, i.e add more punch, add a clip, add a scope etc. It will still be not that great at close to medium ranges compared to an Assault Rifle, but at longer ranges it is the clear best. 

 

Hmmm, ok. But then another problem comes into play: Map design. With higher alpha, the Leo would be a bit better at poke, aim and shoot, but pure sniping? We don't have that many good maps for sniping. On the other hand, it might just work, because you can usually get a fair distance away from the enemy, right?  That would mean that it would need a pen buff, and better shell velocity to make it viable. How do you think your explanation would work with current maps? The only real stinkers i can think of are Himmelsdorf, Paris, Mountain Pass, Ensk... And don't even get me started on the awful map rotation.

Balc0ra #11 Posted 05 September 2018 - 02:03 PM

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Patton line? They should do more or less what the AMX 30 got. But instead make the Leo the one a bit more DPM vs the two, and even better long-range effectiveness, or give a bigger edge in terms of ground resistance and mobility with dpm. No need for a turret buff. 

 

I sold my Leo PTA when the AMX line got buffed. I saw no reason to have it when the AMX did the role so much better even with worse dispersion, as he got a massive dpm buff and turret buff vs it. Thus I was not eager to get the Leo 1 over the tier X AMX. 



BKatt #12 Posted 05 September 2018 - 02:03 PM

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Better softstats in general to 0.13

Improve accuracy to 0.22

Improve Camo by 3%

Buff aimtime to 1.70

 

Cement its playstyle as a long range sniper.

 

I would keep its DPM as is, same as pen.

 

No more silly turret armor, meta boring, generic tanks.



Cobra6 #13 Posted 05 September 2018 - 02:10 PM

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But you see, according to WG they can't buff the Leopard 1 or it would become OP.......even though it's one of the worst performing T10 mediums in their game.

 

Makes you wonder what they are using in that office.... Must be some potent stuff.

 

cobra 6



Simeon85 #14 Posted 05 September 2018 - 02:16 PM

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View PostPaul_Kouadio, on 05 September 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

 

Hmmm, ok. But then another problem comes into play: Map design. With higher alpha, the Leo would be a bit better at poke, aim and shoot, but pure sniping? We don't have that many good maps for sniping. On the other hand, it might just work, because you can usually get a fair distance away from the enemy, right?  That would mean that it would need a pen buff, and better shell velocity to make it viable. How do you think your explanation would work with current maps? The only real stinkers i can think of are Himmelsdorf, Paris, Mountain Pass, Ensk... And don't even get me started on the awful map rotation.

 

Yeh with my suggestions the tank is better at closer engagements, not suited to them but better than now.

 

Higher alpha allows better trading, lower dispersion allows much faster peaking and aiming, higher pen would mean less need to aim for specific points etc. Even better accuracy works at all ranges, at medium ranges most meds will probably struggle to hit an T110E5 cupola for example, but a tank with 0.22 dispersion should be able to hit it much more regularly. 

 

Map design is of course a problem, it's a problem for all meds, not just the Leo. But at least make the Leo effective at the role it is supposed to do. But map design does seem to be shifting a little, look Studanski for example, good sniping opportunities there, Highway should be back soon that has sniping opportunities, the new HD maps are a bit more open. 

 

I am also loathe to make all tanks the same, which is why I think the above approach is better because it makes the Leo a bit different, similar to how the K-91 is different in playstyle to the other Rasha meds. 

 

View PostThejagdpanther, on 05 September 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

But the dispersion it isn't connected with the sigma?

Leo looks to me like a sneaky sneaky click and run tank that need to poke out, shoot and relocate.

The problem looks more like any other tank with +0,35 that can do the same with better consistency, and of course better damage.

The simeoncure looks ok but practically during the game nothing would change (shoot routine). When I play with some friends with sado-leo-moments, they tell me that it miss incredible shoots at distances that a 0,29 gun should not miss - while the classic IS7 at 350 snap him with ease.

General game sigma looks to me a bigger problem that fkup much more tanks. Fix it and leo will get some love. Plus of course some simeonpills.

 

 

That is why I move the dispersion down, currently most tanks at higher tiers have basically 0.3 to 0.4 dispersion and there is not so much difference, they should extend either end so we start seeing tanks with 0.2 dispersion or even lower, whilst tanks like the IS7 should be pushed higher, maybe 0.42 -.044 so you see a clear difference in accuracy. The issue is currently that an IS7 has 0.38 accuracy for 490 alpha gun and a Leo has 0.29 for a 390 alpha gun, not enough difference and at long range the Leo has to hit certain spots to pen and IS7 whilst the IS7 just mainly has to hit.

 

Out of regular tier 10 tanks, according to vbaddict, the IS7 is 5th for accuracy, the Leo 1 is 32nd, it hits nearly 7% less of its shots.


Which is because the paper Leo has to stay at range to avoid taking too much damage, whilst the well armoured IS7 can get way closer, so the Leo 1s accuracy should reflect it's role and ability, just like the IS7's should.

 

So there should be a much bigger difference in their base accuracy than the current 0.09.

 

 

 

 



fisco77 #15 Posted 05 September 2018 - 04:01 PM

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I'm all in for the buff although i like playing Leo as it is, but i'm against this model based purely on the looks, it's f***ugly, while the Leo we now have is one of the prettiest tank in game IMO, sometimes i play it just so i can look at it.

Paul_Kouadio #16 Posted 05 September 2018 - 04:04 PM

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View Postfisco77, on 05 September 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

I'm all in for the buff although i like playing Leo as it is, but i'm against this model based purely on the looks, it's f***ugly, while the Leo we now have is one of the prettiest tank in game IMO, sometimes i play it just so i can look at it.

 

:teethhappy:​ Alright, alright! I'm sure we can find a fix, lol. Thanks for the feedback 

pecopad #17 Posted 05 September 2018 - 05:28 PM

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Why should the Leopard 1  be relevant?

 

And why don't you grind the Patton instead?

 

Should all tanks be relevant?


Edited by pecopad, 05 September 2018 - 05:28 PM.


Tom_Deekanarry #18 Posted 05 September 2018 - 05:40 PM

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Leo 1 was designed for mobility and shoot n scoot at a time when first round hits were unlikely, a high rate of fire, rapid target acquisition and good reverse speed was necessary for it to operate as intended, which is why they have extremely good optics and crew ergonomics, it's whole design philosophy was to position, fire, scoot fast, before the enemy got a bead on you, that's why it was only armoured against autocannon and artillery, unfortunately modern fire control systems made the concept obsolete as you could not rely on your opponent missing with their first shots, hence the heavier Leo 2.


 

For this game the tank should have a very fast aim time and ROF, otherwise it's simply unworkable.

 

 


Edited by Tom_Deekanarry, 05 September 2018 - 05:40 PM.


Cannes76 #19 Posted 05 September 2018 - 05:42 PM

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I'm in the no more armor buffs camp on this one.

A massive buff to the gun softstats is what it needs.



Brownape #20 Posted 05 September 2018 - 05:48 PM

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i do need a reason to buy it




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