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Since we're talking about Light Tanks now...


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WindSplitter1 #1 Posted 07 September 2018 - 03:00 PM

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WG is willing to discuss Artillery to death, afterlife and beyond but not a single mention concerning the state of the Light Tanks has been made, apart from an old Q&A session where they said "statistically, they are fine."

 

Sure, we're getting the British LT line, which is overdue in my opinion and not far from that, Wheeled Lights (WL). So, you might think that's actually good news in the LT Department, right?

Wrong.

 

The maps no longer will the tactics once made by LTs but that's not a valid excuse to give LTs:

 

  • Higher penetration loss over distance

This never made sense to me before. And it still makes none today. Giving them a lower base/avg penetration is a sound choice indeed. But the differences are enough to make a perceptible outcome on a battle.

 

  • Poor accuracy

0.40+, even with BiA + Vents + 100% Crew. And we're talking about dispersion at 100m. Meanwhile, an SPG, which supposedly has even worse accuracy, is able to shoot down a "fast" moving LT. This gets to a level such that even some Lights have the same worse accuracy than Heavy Tanks.

 

  • Reduced top speed (and engine power in some cases)

Bulldog/T49, Chaffee, ELC bis, VK and likely others. A Heavy Tank's armour is measured in millimeters but a  Light Tank's armour is measured in kilometers per hour. I understand the historical background might make one say this is not relevant, but speaking from cases I know, the same way the Chaffee didn't do 77km/h, an ELC bis could reach 80km/h.

 

Other players have mentioned the difficulties with the T-50-2, a tank so fast, it wasn't even rendered right. So it was difficult to hit him. Those days are long gone and so is that vehicle, along with tanks being welded to the floor.

 

  • Reduced fighting characteristics

In particular cases:

>SP I C - Autoloader + 10m VR

>WZ-131 - DPM/DPS nerf (in short) + 20m VR

>M41 Walker Bulldog - Speed + Autoloader

>AMX 12t - Intra clip reload + 2 Shots in the magazine (the latter being the standard for other French Light tanks)

>MT-25 - Speed + aiming time + Reload + 10m VR

>VK 28.01 - Speed + Gun

 

And other examples you prolly know better than I.

This isn't to say there have been improvements to go with those changes. That wouldn't be true. And in the case of Tier IX Light Tanks, those are, I'd say in most cases, actually better than before.

 

Still. in other cases, as if the above wasn't enough, what made these tanks and others not in this brief list unique vehicles and even keepers, is no more.

The alternative is going premium, since touching those is gonna move too many waves WG prolly won't want to at a time like this, but those are definitely better than their in-tree counter parts

 

  • Reduced survivability

All of the above has a toll on how long an LT is able to survive since now they have many more things going against them. But in some cases, their HP pool has been diminished (Tier V).

The EVEN 90 seems more like Tier VII material if we were to look at it for HP alone, though I think that "Light Tank" has plenty of other problems and HP is only one of them.

 


Excuses

Justifications for those changes given by WG and/or its players are in the line with "LTs are not supposed to be the primary damage dealers", "Light tanks only selfishly snipe and don't spot" or "the changes are meant to spare Tier VIs because the others would then be too strong for them".

 

Well, before the arty nerfs, you could remove one gun with one shot. This, in a class that literally is a support class. And let's be honest: would you really leave it all for the Heavies on that basis? When most of them, pardon my expression as it is less objective, couldn't find their foreheads with a map and a flashlight? There are such players accross the board but in HTs, that seems to be the standard.

 

Besides, Light Tanks have guns too, and they are meant to be used. So the "primary damage dealer" view only aims at giving more prestige at one class over the others, which isn't correct since any vehicle can carry, provided there's a good player behind it.

 

Concerning how these changes would affect Tier VIs, I don't see that a problem. ISUs and Borsigs can eliminate within a single shot almost all Tier VIs that aren't HTs. With regards to Tier VIIs, there are plenty of those that can be a problem to you but you still have a chance of getting through the front door as well. Even then, when all else fails, you still have other Tier VIs to bully at.

 

It might be tempting to say that it's to spare bad/new players but the seal clubbers go a one or two tiers lower to do their harrassments (T67, Luchs and T40). The Hellcat is a known stat padder tool but it would again meet the vehicles other Tier VIs would. I don't see it to be as problematic as the T67 for example, which pretty much can take the role of both American Lights with only losing on camo on the move, open turret and turret traverse. Apart from view range obviously.

 

So, In my view, there's absolutely no reason to have these gimped Lightiums when they could be as they used to.

 

With WLs, they'll be based on this, but meant to be even worse, if WG's intentions materialized. My point is, there should be another discussion that should bring LTs back to the drawing board.



DangerMouse #2 Posted 07 September 2018 - 03:25 PM

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I think the main issue is balance, now they can be top tier if they were any more powerful lower tiers would get completely smashed.

 

For example this week I have been playing a very good light tank, the 13-57, using it to complete the new PM, 8 damaging shots in the first 3 minutes.

 

Only had two top tier games and both ended with over 3k damage and Ace tankers.

 

 

They need to buff them and then give them their old MM back, not sure how they would fix the TX and TIX ones.

 

DM

 



cragarion #3 Posted 07 September 2018 - 03:29 PM

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View PostWindSplitter1, on 07 September 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

WG is willing to discuss Artillery to death, afterlife and beyond but not a single mention concerning the state of the Light Tanks has been made, apart from an old Q&A session where they said "statistically, they are fine."

 

Sure, we're getting the British LT line, which is overdue in my opinion and not far from that, Wheeled Lights (WL). So, you might think that's actually good news in the LT Department, right?

Wrong.

 

The maps no longer will the tactics once made by LTs but that's not a valid excuse to give LTs:

 

  • Higher penetration loss over distance

This never made sense to me before. And it still makes none today. Giving them a lower base/avg penetration is a sound choice indeed. But the differences are enough to make a perceptible outcome on a battle.

 

  • Poor accuracy

0.40+, even with BiA + Vents + 100% Crew. And we're talking about dispersion at 100m. Meanwhile, an SPG, which supposedly has even worse accuracy, is able to shoot down a "fast" moving LT. This gets to a level such that even some Lights have the same worse accuracy than Heavy Tanks.

 

  • Reduced top speed (and engine power in some cases)

Bulldog/T49, Chaffee, ELC bis, VK and likely others. A Heavy Tank's armour is measured in millimeters but a  Light Tank's armour is measured in kilometers per hour. I understand the historical background might make one say this is not relevant, but speaking from cases I know, the same way the Chaffee didn't do 77km/h, an ELC bis could reach 80km/h.

 

Other players have mentioned the difficulties with the T-50-2, a tank so fast, it wasn't even rendered right. So it was difficult to hit him. Those days are long gone and so is that vehicle, along with tanks being welded to the floor.

 

  • Reduced fighting characteristics

In particular cases:

>SP I C - Autoloader + 10m VR

>WZ-131 - DPM/DPS nerf (in short) + 20m VR

>M41 Walker Bulldog - Speed + Autoloader

>AMX 12t - Intra clip reload + 2 Shots in the magazine (the latter being the standard for other French Light tanks)

>MT-25 - Speed + aiming time + Reload + 10m VR

>VK 28.01 - Speed + Gun

 

And other examples you prolly know better than I.

This isn't to say there have been improvements to go with those changes. That wouldn't be true. And in the case of Tier IX Light Tanks, those are, I'd say in most cases, actually better than before.

 

Still. in other cases, as if the above wasn't enough, what made these tanks and others not in this brief list unique vehicles and even keepers, is no more.

The alternative is going premium, since touching those is gonna move too many waves WG prolly won't want to at a time like this, but those are definitely better than their in-tree counter parts

 

  • Reduced survivability

All of the above has a toll on how long an LT is able to survive since now they have many more things going against them. But in some cases, their HP pool has been diminished (Tier V).

The EVEN 90 seems more like Tier VII material if we were to look at it for HP alone, though I think that "Light Tank" has plenty of other problems and HP is only one of them.

 


Excuses

Justifications for those changes given by WG and/or its players are in the line with "LTs are not supposed to be the primary damage dealers", "Light tanks only selfishly snipe and don't spot" or "the changes are meant to spare Tier VIs because the others would then be too strong for them".

 

Well, before the arty nerfs, you could remove one gun with one shot. This, in a class that literally is a support class. And let's be honest: would you really leave it all for the Heavies on that basis? When most of them, pardon my expression as it is less objective, couldn't find their foreheads with a map and a flashlight? There are such players accross the board but in HTs, that seems to be the standard.

 

Besides, Light Tanks have guns too, and they are meant to be used. So the "primary damage dealer" view only aims at giving more prestige at one class over the others, which isn't correct since any vehicle can carry, provided there's a good player behind it.

 

Concerning how these changes would affect Tier VIs, I don't see that a problem. ISUs and Borsigs can eliminate within a single shot almost all Tier VIs that aren't HTs. With regards to Tier VIIs, there are plenty of those that can be a problem to you but you still have a chance of getting through the front door as well. Even then, when all else fails, you still have other Tier VIs to bully at.

 

It might be tempting to say that it's to spare bad/new players but the seal clubbers go a one or two tiers lower to do their harrassments (T67, Luchs and T40). The Hellcat is a known stat padder tool but it would again meet the vehicles other Tier VIs would. I don't see it to be as problematic as the T67 for example, which pretty much can take the role of both American Lights with only losing on camo on the move, open turret and turret traverse. Apart from view range obviously.

 

So, In my view, there's absolutely no reason to have these gimped Lightiums when they could be as they used to.

 

With WLs, they'll be based on this, but meant to be even worse, if WG's intentions materialized. My point is, there should be another discussion that should bring LTs back to the drawing board.

 

WOOOHOOO great news sick of scouts not doing there jobs this should get at least some of them back to spotting *must tell wg to reduce xp from fighting and drastically increase it for spotting*.

Enforcer1975 #4 Posted 07 September 2018 - 03:38 PM

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View PostDangerMouse, on 07 September 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

They need to buff them and then give them their old MM back, not sure how they would fix the TX and TIX ones.

 

DM

 

Many tanks around tier 9 and 10 can easily be placed in tier 11 and 12 without buffs because they are broken enough.

LT and SPG problem solved. 



Balc0ra #5 Posted 07 September 2018 - 04:19 PM

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View PostWindSplitter1, on 07 September 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

 

Besides, Light Tanks have guns too, and they are meant to be used. So the "primary damage dealer" view only aims at giving more prestige at one class over the others, which isn't correct since any vehicle can carry, provided there's a good player behind it.

 

They do have guns. But they should not be better at using it vs other classes still, you don't want all lights to be as accurate as a TD, and have medium DPM as such. But at the same time not be useless vs them like some are when they have to fight them. I mean there are fights when you have 5 lights on your team. There is no point having all 5 passive spotting. So you play support instead using your gun. Or move with the meds. T49 with the 90mm can do that just fine. WZ's less so, but they can make it work. Then you have others that can't do that like the SP1C, as he even lacks speed and DPM to even follow the meds. So he needs a gun focused buff badly. And he is not the only one. But there are others that are more than fine at the same time. 

 

 

View PostWindSplitter1, on 07 September 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

It might be tempting to say that it's to spare bad/new players but the seal clubbers go a one or two tiers lower to do their harrassments (T67, Luchs and T40). The Hellcat is a known stat padder tool but it would again meet the vehicles other Tier VIs would. I don't see it to be as problematic as the T67 for example, which pretty much can take the role of both American Lights with only losing on camo on the move, open turret and turret traverse. Apart from view range obviously.

 

Having meds that can do the scout role, or even TD's is not bad either. My Swedish Leo and Cromwell have done the scouting job many times. As the light is dead, or we never had lights on our team. So giving the ability for some to change role, minus the camo on the move is still needed at times. 

 

View PostWindSplitter1, on 07 September 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

So, In my view, there's absolutely no reason to have these gimped Lightiums when they could be as they used to.

 

With WLs, they'll be based on this, but meant to be even worse, if WG's intentions materialized. My point is, there should be another discussion that should bring LTs back to the drawing board.

 

On most of them. I 100% agree. But you can't honestly say the Bulldog would be fine vs tier 6 with a 10 round clip? Or the VK with the derp and a 5 sec reload with that camo vs tier 4's? Then you have other tanks like the SP1C that was not OP with the clip gun even vs tier 6 and 7 targets. And they thought he would be "fine" with 1500 dpm. So I get some, but I don't get others at the same time. WZ was strong on the DPM. But he doesn't need more dpm then even a tier 7 med when he can be top tier. But he still could use more than he has now at the same time. 

 

And yes, there should be a discussion. But there kind already have been one amongst players. And even then you have different opinions on what their role and focus should be now that they are top tier. Should it be gun, HP, view range. Or Gun, view range and camo. Or camo, speed and view range. As you can't get everything in one bag. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Hallodri #6 Posted 08 September 2018 - 12:13 AM

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The Bulldog is grap.

 

A weak and useless light tank



Hiisi #7 Posted 08 September 2018 - 08:20 AM

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Lower tier lights are too good, especially premiums (amx 13 57, type 64, etc.). Tier 10 lights are afull (excluding lt-100).

 

Lights should have

less alfa than meds 

dpm less than meds but better than heavies.

best gunhandling as a class.

worst pen 

Ok accuracy

really bad gold rounds

better gamo/viewrange than they currently have

best mobility 

 

Lights should be like t92. Low alfa, good handling, ok dpm, ok accuracy, good viewrange/gamo, poor pen, bad premium ammo, fast shell. 

This combination doesnt allow it to be a good sniper, because low alfa and poor penetration. You cant really pen heavies from the front, but from the sides you can. So if you have enemy sideshots open you can damage heavies from a distance. But you are effective scout and have damage dealing potential if you play well. 

 

Currently tier 10 lights have good alfa, afull accuracy, idiotic pen drop off, big shilouette (usa, german), weird gamo/viewrange combinations, low dpm, weird gun handling differences (some have afull handling and some haves the best). 

 

Tier 10 light alfas should be 

lt-100 250,

wz-132-1 320

reinmetall pzw 300

sheridan 300

amx 13 105 300

 

accuracy should be similar to mediums 0,30-0,36 range, small alfa fast shell, effectively no pen drop off, pen should be in 220-240 range, bad heat, Good/ok dpm, good gunhandling.

 

 



tank276 #8 Posted 08 September 2018 - 12:15 PM

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I agree with Hiisi, lights sweet spot is at tiers 6 and 7, above that it gets frustrating due to they actually being underperforming meds.

Unless you just play the spotting game and not shoot much.






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