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Damaging your allies - new penalty system

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Alfa_Tau #1 Posted 09 September 2018 - 04:29 PM

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Good afternoon to all 

I believe that the current  metric applied to "punish" and compensate an unfair beahviour is NOT good enough to discourage the widely diffused bad practice to shoot an ally.

I'm sure everyone has experimented how bad feels to receive an hit from an ally. possibly in a moment of tense action, when you are focusing on the enemy. Now it is certainly true that some times it's a real accident, for example a very fast light tank crossing your line of fire in the moment when you pull the trigger. But it sucks when someone shoot you on purpose 2 times.

 

The actual punishment is really weak and does NOT discourage people from reacting or over reacting to what they consider an "act of hostility" (for example at the start of the match when all tanks are very close is very easy to ram a vehicle by mistake and susequently one player shoot to the other).

 

Real life example of the actual system: Recently I was shot 2 times in short sequence by player CHISINAU in his progetto 46. Reason according to him my TD was camping in his bush!!! 

My TD is a challenger T7 and I lost over 500HP out of the 900 Total. More then 50 % of my HP in first 30second of the battle. Not a good start. 

At the end of the battle I was "compensated"  with 5585 credits!!!! Now because Progetto is a premium vehicle I guess this was less then 10% of his income . And anyway is too few to prevent this beahviour. 

 

Therefore this is my proposal :

I. One single hit -  the compensation should be proportional to the damage caused, for example reducing 10% of the allied HP will lead to a detraction of  10% of the post battle income of the shooter in favor of his victim.

IIA. Second hit on same player already damaged: the compensation will be equal to the actual share of the stock price of the whole tank; example:

 Tier 6  MT 25 light tank has 590 HP stock and cost 880.000 credits. In case of a second hit causing an additional 10% loss of HP, the MT 25 player should receive 88.000 credits. 

IIB. second hit on a different allied: same calculation as per case 1 but with 2 times bigger deduction. Example: reducing 10% of the allied HP will lead to a detraction of  20% of the post battle income of the shooter.

III. After 2 hits any further hit will lead to automatic BAN (for 1 day minimum) and compensation to damaged person will follow the point 2.

It may sound a little harsh BUT bad beahviour is really the worst part of this game, and should really not be tolerated.

Please let me know your thoughts about my proposal and if you have your own I will be glad to hear about it.

 

 

 

  



Grand_Moff_Tano #2 Posted 09 September 2018 - 04:33 PM

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I can't wait for this to come in game so I can take advantage of free credits.

Homer_J #3 Posted 09 September 2018 - 04:35 PM

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The compensation you get is linked to your repair costs.  The fine the other guy pays is many times (10x IIRC) the compensation which you see.

 

So you don't know how much his fine was, so you are suggesting an improvement to a system you do not understand.


Edited by Homer_J, 09 September 2018 - 04:37 PM.


Balc0ra #4 Posted 09 September 2018 - 04:39 PM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 09 September 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

Therefore this is my proposal :

I. One single hit -  the compensation should be proportional to the damage caused, for example reducing 10% of the allied HP will lead to a detraction of  10% of the post battle income of the shooter in favor of his victim.

IIA. Second hit on same player already damaged: the compensation will be equal to the actual share of the stock price of the whole tank; example:

 Tier 6  MT 25 light tank has 590 HP stock and cost 880.000 credits. In case of a second hit causing an additional 10% loss of HP, the MT 25 player should receive 88.000 credits. 

IIB. second hit on a different allied: same calculation as per case 1 but with 2 times bigger deduction. Example: reducing 10% of the allied HP will lead to a detraction of  20% of the post battle income of the shooter.

III. After 2 hits any further hit will lead to automatic BAN (for 1 day minimum) and compensation to damaged person will follow the point 2.

It may sound a little harsh BUT bad beahviour is really the worst part of this game, and should really not be tolerated.

Please let me know your thoughts about my proposal and if you have your own I will be glad to hear about it.

 

 

 

  

 

Your tank doesn't lose value from getting hit. So why on earth should you get 88K for your MT-25? You should get what it cost to repair your tank fully. If costs 15K, you get 15K. The one doing the damage pays more then you get atm as is anyway. But if you lose 90% of your HP from a KV-2. Then you will get 2K in compensation for something that did cost 8K to repair. 

 

As for point III. At that point he should be banned on the first hit after that. As he has already done 3. Thus most likely already turned blue. No need to extend to 6 hits. As all this would do is give people a reason to get people to shoot you. Lack credits? Just push people out of cover until they shoot you and keep bugging them for a 2nd shot so you get more then you would on a tier 8 prem run. 



Alfa_Tau #5 Posted 09 September 2018 - 05:51 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 09 September 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

The compensation you get is linked to your repair costs.  The fine the other guy pays is many times (10x IIRC) the compensation which you see.

 

So you don't know how much his fine was, so you are suggesting an improvement to a system you do not understand.

 

I think you didn't get my point. Or perhaps I was not clear enough. What I'm suggesting is a system that really discourage people from shooting their allies on purpose. Which I consider one of the biggest problem in game. This while avoiding to punish too much a simple mistake. I made a proposal, that can be a starting point for a discussion. If you are happy with the current system of course you may disagree with me.  

16:58 Added after 7 minutes

View PostBalc0ra, on 09 September 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

 

Your tank doesn't lose value from getting hit. So why on earth should you get 88K for your MT-25? You should get what it cost to repair your tank fully. If costs 15K, you get 15K. The one doing the damage pays more then you get atm as is anyway. But if you lose 90% of your HP from a KV-2. Then you will get 2K in compensation for something that did cost 8K to repair. 

 

As for point III. At that point he should be banned on the first hit after that. As he has already done 3. Thus most likely already turned blue. No need to extend to 6 hits. As all this would do is give people a reason to get people to shoot you. Lack credits? Just push people out of cover until they shoot you and keep bugging them for a 2nd shot so you get more then you would on a tier 8 prem run. 

 

It's not about the value of the tank. It's about preventing people to shoot at you for futile reason (although in my opinion no reason is good to shoot an ally).

For point III : I believe in a battle you may hit an ally by simple mistake. It happens. So this mistake should not be punished too hard. Like it is now. Of course a second hit (wich now does not imply a ban) should be punished more severly. A third hit in addition to turn blue should lead to a ban.

My point is to find a way to prevent people from having unfair beahvior.

I'm using mods like many players, and I have activated the friendly fire lock. Which prevent me from shooting if an ally is on my los. That how seriously I consider not to damage allies.

Hope I made my thoughts more clear.  



Grand_Moff_Tano #6 Posted 09 September 2018 - 05:59 PM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 09 September 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

 

I think you didn't get my point. Or perhaps I was not clear enough. What I'm suggesting is a system that really discourage people from shooting their allies on purpose. Which I consider one of the biggest problem in game. This while avoiding to punish too much a simple mistake. I made a proposal, that can be a starting point for a discussion. If you are happy with the current system of course you may disagree with me.  

16:58 Added after 7 minutes

 

It's not about the value of the tank. It's about preventing people to shoot at you for futile reason (although in my opinion no reason is good to shoot an ally).

For point III : I believe in a battle you may hit an ally by simple mistake. It happens. So this mistake should not be punished too hard. Like it is now. Of course a second hit (wich now does not imply a ban) should be punished more severly. A third hit in addition to turn blue should lead to a ban.

My point is to find a way to prevent people from having unfair beahvior.

I'm using mods like many players, and I have activated the friendly fire lock. Which prevent me from shooting if an ally is on my los. That how seriously I consider not to damage allies.

Hope I made my thoughts more clear.  

 

Something that can be taken advantage of by trolls.

ChestyMorgan #7 Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:01 PM

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Wouldn't it be easier to just mirror the damage so that it effects your vehicle instead of the one you hit, either accidentally or through beinf bloody minded? That way the innocent parties game doesn't get ruined & the culprit picks up the repair cost. Would also put an end to the let's kill the blue player at the start of a battle.

Alfa_Tau #8 Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:03 PM

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View PostChestyMorgan, on 09 September 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be easier to just mirror the damage so that it effects your vehicle instead of the one you hit, either accidentally or through beinf bloody minded? That way the innocent parties game doesn't get ruined & the culprit picks up the repair cost. Would also put an end to the let's kill the blue player at the start of a battle.

 

This sound as a good idea for me. Thanks. Something similar is happening in wows. 

cragarion #9 Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:07 PM

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WTF wheres my reply gone, :(

 

Not writing all that out again damn forum bugs :facepalm:

 



Grand_Moff_Tano #10 Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:10 PM

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View PostChestyMorgan, on 09 September 2018 - 05:01 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be easier to just mirror the damage so that it effects your vehicle instead of the one you hit, either accidentally or through beinf bloody minded? That way the innocent parties game doesn't get ruined & the culprit picks up the repair cost. Would also put an end to the let's kill the blue player at the start of a battle.

 

Again, easy to take advantage off by trolls.

Homer_J #11 Posted 09 September 2018 - 07:22 PM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 09 September 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

 

I think you didn't get my point. 

 

I know you didn't get mine.

 

The fine is already ten times as big as you think it is.

 

What you see is the compensation, which covers your repairs.  You do not see how much the other guy got fined.

 

You were compensated with 5k, the other guy paid 50k (or all his earnings if they were less).  The other 45k goes to WG as an admin fee.



HassenderZerhacker #12 Posted 09 September 2018 - 07:24 PM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 09 September 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

Good afternoon to all 

I believe that the current  metric applied to "punish" and compensate an unfair beahviour is NOT good enough to discourage the widely diffused bad practice to shoot an ally.

I'm sure everyone has experimented how bad feels to receive an hit from an ally. possibly in a moment of tense action, when you are focusing on the enemy. Now it is certainly true that some times it's a real accident, for example a very fast light tank crossing your line of fire in the moment when you pull the trigger. But it sucks when someone shoot you on purpose 2 times.

 

The actual punishment is really weak and does NOT discourage people from reacting or over reacting to what they consider an "act of hostility" (for example at the start of the match when all tanks are very close is very easy to ram a vehicle by mistake and susequently one player shoot to the other).

 

Real life example of the actual system: Recently I was shot 2 times in short sequence by player CHISINAU in his progetto 46. Reason according to him my TD was camping in his bush!!! 

My TD is a challenger T7 and I lost over 500HP out of the 900 Total. More then 50 % of my HP in first 30second of the battle. Not a good start. 

At the end of the battle I was "compensated"  with 5585 credits!!!! Now because Progetto is a premium vehicle I guess this was less then 10% of his income . And anyway is too few to prevent this beahviour. 

 

Therefore this is my proposal :

I. One single hit -  the compensation should be proportional to the damage caused, for example reducing 10% of the allied HP will lead to a detraction of  10% of the post battle income of the shooter in favor of his victim.

IIA. Second hit on same player already damaged: the compensation will be equal to the actual share of the stock price of the whole tank; example:

 Tier 6  MT 25 light tank has 590 HP stock and cost 880.000 credits. In case of a second hit causing an additional 10% loss of HP, the MT 25 player should receive 88.000 credits. 

IIB. second hit on a different allied: same calculation as per case 1 but with 2 times bigger deduction. Example: reducing 10% of the allied HP will lead to a detraction of  20% of the post battle income of the shooter.

III. After 2 hits any further hit will lead to automatic BAN (for 1 day minimum) and compensation to damaged person will follow the point 2.

It may sound a little harsh BUT bad beahviour is really the worst part of this game, and should really not be tolerated.

Please let me know your thoughts about my proposal and if you have your own I will be glad to hear about it.

 

 

fine with me if the credits don't go to the victim and if there is a way for the victim to forgive the perp. If forgiven, the perp would still have to pay, but could continue playing.

 

The best about this system is the ban.

I think though that the ban should not only be applied at the third shot, this is too late.

The perp should be banned for 24h if any of the following conditions are met:

- shot the victim 3 times single shot, or from 3 different bursts (non-penetrating shots count)

- shot the victim at least 2 times or from 2 different bursts AND did more than 50% HP damage OR killed the victim

- perp and/or his platoon shot the victim at least 2 times AND did more than 50% damage OR killed the victim => all shooters in platoon banned

 

the system should register when one tank pushes another and the other pushes back. every one second should count as one shot.

 


Edited by HassenderZerhacker, 09 September 2018 - 07:33 PM.


Homer_J #13 Posted 09 September 2018 - 07:24 PM

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View PostChestyMorgan, on 09 September 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be easier to just mirror the damage so that it effects your vehicle instead of the one you hit, either accidentally or through beinf bloody minded? That way the innocent parties game doesn't get ruined

 

You would just introduce a new way to troll.  We already have delinquents crossing gun barrels with arty in order to teamkill them.  You'll have the same idiots blocking your shot so you take the damage.

Orkbert #14 Posted 09 September 2018 - 07:40 PM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 09 September 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

 

I believe that the current  metric  is NOT good enough to discourage the widely diffused bad practice to shoot an ally.

 

 

Umm, it doesn't happen all that often in my matches. In the last two weeks or so it might have happened once or twice (and both might have been accidents) and that was to some other player on my team. I haven't been deliberately shot at by my team for at least three months or so. And I do play quite some arty.

 

So while teamdamage is indeed bad, if it happens so often to you but much less often to an arty player like me then there could be reasons why you attract friendly fire while I don't.



Archaean #15 Posted 09 September 2018 - 07:43 PM

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How do you play to get team damaged that often for you to propose such impressively bad improvements? In my last something like 100 battles I probably got shot ones and that's because I blocked someone's line of fire (accidentally). And that was at the end of a game where it only bothered me for a fraction of a second and I moved on.

 

 



Alfa_Tau #16 Posted 09 September 2018 - 08:27 PM

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View PostArchaean, on 09 September 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

How do you play to get team damaged that often for you to propose such impressively bad improvements? In my last something like 100 battles I probably got shot ones and that's because I blocked someone's line of fire (accidentally). And that was at the end of a game where it only bothered me for a fraction of a second and I moved on.

 

 

 

I can't say it happens often to me. But even one time is too much, don't you think so? 
19:31 Added after 3 minutes

View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 09 September 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

 

fine with me if the credits don't go to the victim and if there is a way for the victim to forgive the perp. If forgiven, the perp would still have to pay, but could continue playing.

 

The best about this system is the ban.

I think though that the ban should not only be applied at the third shot, this is too late.

The perp should be banned for 24h if any of the following conditions are met:

- shot the victim 3 times single shot, or from 3 different bursts (non-penetrating shots count)

- shot the victim at least 2 times or from 2 different bursts AND did more than 50% HP damage OR killed the victim

- perp and/or his platoon shot the victim at least 2 times AND did more than 50% damage OR killed the victim => all shooters in platoon banned

 

the system should register when one tank pushes another and the other pushes back. every one second should count as one shot.

 

 

I can agree with all. Although ramming can really be incidentally. Think how many times you reverse to get undercover and you hit another tank. ususally this damage is very small and it's already compensated. 

the idea of punishing a whole platoon can be interesting. 

19:34 Added after 6 minutes

View PostHomer_J, on 09 September 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

 

I know you didn't get mine.

 

The fine is already ten times as big as you think it is.

 

What you see is the compensation, which covers your repairs.  You do not see how much the other guy got fined.

 

You were compensated with 5k, the other guy paid 50k (or all his earnings if they were less).  The other 45k goes to WG as an admin fee.

 

No sorry you did not get my point. 

Team damage not only cause a credit damage (this is the minor problem) It can really ruin your game ( this is the major problem). And this is what I would like to discourage even through a draconian punishment. 

 



Homer_J #17 Posted 09 September 2018 - 08:39 PM

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View PostAlfa_Tau, on 09 September 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

 

I can't say it happens often to me. But even one time is too much, don't you think so? 

 

You could make it six million credits every time but you still won't eliminate team damage.  You will just punish genuine mistakes.

 

We get people coming here complaining that they got a week ban, which means that the 1 hour ban and the 1 day ban they had previously didn't teach them anything.



vcristi #18 Posted 09 September 2018 - 08:55 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 09 September 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

 

 

The fine is already ten times as big as you think it is.

 

 

No, it's not 10x.

The fine is just double or triple to what the damaged one gets, i think double is closer to reality. 

 

The OP idea about reworking something that really does not need rework is mildly said bad.

You get to pay enough compensations and you get banned right now, paying the ridiculous 10% of the value of a tank is worst idea ever. People will just start trolling around blocking people so they can get shot and make easy money.

 

Really bad idea.



Cannes76 #19 Posted 09 September 2018 - 10:17 PM

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View PostChestyMorgan, on 09 September 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be easier to just mirror the damage so that it effects your vehicle instead of the one you hit, either accidentally or through beinf bloody minded? That way the innocent parties game doesn't get ruined & the culprit picks up the repair cost. Would also put an end to the let's kill the blue player at the start of a battle.

 

Very easy to troll people with such a system.

TheComfyChair #20 Posted 09 September 2018 - 10:42 PM

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View Postcragarion, on 09 September 2018 - 06:07 PM, said:

WTF wheres my reply gone, :(

 

Not writing all that out again damn forum bugs :facepalm:

 

 






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