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Why is the Panther II so bad ?


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Catiga282 #1 Posted 13 September 2018 - 12:33 AM

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Hello,

 

I am at a loss here. I have been playing this game since closed beta, but my other account was lost thanks to WG, now i had to start over. But that is not the topic now...

When i played the Tier 9 and Tier 8 Panther II way back a few years ago, it could hit the broad side of a barn and it was a decent tank, but now, good god is it bad.  I have about 30 game in the Panther II and a WR of 30% and 105 games in Panter 8,8 with a WR of 49%, while most of my other tanks are doing a lot better as is my average. So the problem is in the tanks, not the driver per se. 

Just to check that i am not insane, i checked vbaddict and the WR of the P II and P 8,8 is among the lowest among tier 8 tanks on the server, and they are taking the 100th and 105th place out of 105 tier 8 tanks. The damage dealt in battle is also horrible and barely creeps over 700 per battle. And the accuracy is just  below the average for tier 8 tanks. That is for a sample size of 20K battles, so the team that gets a P II in their line up have a higher chance of loosing the battle. Sure, some of that percentage is from new players going after the "German God machines" but it can not be all of them ?! 

The tanks can not perform well as snipers, as i am sure you will suggest as the only viable play style, since they can not hit bloody anything past 150m. Today shot the lower plate of a 110, and 3 out of 3 shot landed in the dirt, while most of the reticle was on the tank at a range of 300m. It is as if the 88mm cannon has a built in dirt detector, and hones in to the nearest collection of rubble or grass heap. I hit about 72% of my shots in the P II, but the shell just flies wherever and misses the side of a O-Ni and hits it's tracks for now good effect. The armor is useless and i am well aware of it, but there is no way for me to compensate for it, as the tank is also sluggish at best, and is made of driver, radio operator and gunner skins, but also filled with ammo racks  and engine just to grill it that bit more. The DPM is 2300, but it is next useless if the shell will miss or hit the tracks at even 50m, while my KV-3 with the 122mm trough some Stalin magic hits 81% of its shots, i don't even bother to aim with that thing anymore.

 

The tank is equipped with the standard Vertical Stabilizer, Medium gun rammer and Ventilation. The crew is up to speed at 105%. In my defense i made the King Tiger work, almost managed a 3 MoE on it, but got bogged down around 93% and with a decent 55,78% WR.

 

I just do not know what can i do to make it work, other then to sell it and execute the crew for the trauma they had to suffer trough, and ask WG why is it this bad, as the other 20K battles in it prove to be bad on average ?


Edited by Catiga282, 13 September 2018 - 12:35 AM.


Simeon85 #2 Posted 13 September 2018 - 09:18 AM

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It used to be a lot worse, it's not terrible now it has the super long 88. 

 

Most tier 8 meds are not great anyway, especially compared to the heavies and many of the TDs (I mean why would you play a Panther 2 when there is an IS3 about?) plus there are the many better premiums as well.

 

But mainly it's the MM, they are the worst class on tier 8, and then the whole of tier 8 currently gets shafted by 3-5-7 and is bottom tier most of the time so the meds feel extra painful (again something like a Borsig will still be a threat in tier 10 with it's alpha and pen, an IS3 can bounce stuff in a tier 10 and the lights can still spot etc.).

 

Tier 8 meds need IMO a DPM buff across the board, maybe some mobility boosts so they have clear advantages over the tier 8 heavies. The T-44-100 is a good template of what a tier 8 med should be, very good mobility, good gun handling and decent DPM. 

 

Plus the MM needs to fixed. 

 

Do that and the Panther 2 would be better. 



fwhaatpiraat #3 Posted 13 September 2018 - 09:27 AM

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View PostSimeon85, on 13 September 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

It used to be a lot worse, it's not terrible now it has the super long 88. 

 

Most tier 8 meds are not great anyway, especially compared to the heavies and many of the TDs (I mean why would you play a Panther 2 when there is an IS3 about?) plus there are the many better premiums as well.

 

But mainly it's the MM, they are the worst class on tier 8, and then the whole of tier 8 currently gets shafted by 3-5-7 and is bottom tier most of the time so the meds feel extra painful (again something like a Borsig will still be a threat in tier 10 with it's alpha and pen, an IS3 can bounce stuff in a tier 10 and the lights can still spot etc.).

 

Tier 8 meds need IMO a DPM buff across the board, maybe some mobility boosts so they have clear advantages over the tier 8 heavies. The T-44-100 is a good template of what a tier 8 med should be, very good mobility, good gun handling and decent DPM. 

 

Plus the MM needs to fixed. 

 

Do that and the Panther 2 would be better. 

Long 88 with good penetration and trash rate of fire and dpm. Nice gun.



FizzleMcSnizzle #4 Posted 13 September 2018 - 09:36 AM

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Map size. The childish obsession with calibre (wonder why, da). The fact the German tanks are all forced to operate above their age bracket. Losing WW2. Etc.

ares354 #5 Posted 13 September 2018 - 09:42 AM

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Because Panther II is not Centuion I so she didint get extra 100 mm fake armor on turret front in name of balance, or she is not T 44 100 who got engine, dpm, soft stats, armor buff all over the place. 

But you have worse trash then Panther II on tier 8; Indien Panzer, STA 1, TVP VTU, T34-2 

TungstenHitman #6 Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:01 AM

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Why so Bad.

 

 

1. No armor. So it can't brawl

2. No Camo. So it can't snipe

3. Huge Size. So it's an easy target to hit, get's spotted easily being so big and tall unlike the low profile T-44 plus, when combined with no armor and no camo makes it just a really big juicy target pretty much all the time.

4. P/W Ratio. 12.79 is bad even by some heavy tanks standards so it just can't escape or react or get to places it needs to for a medium tank. This means its either to late getting where it needs to and it's also a slow moving target which just adds insult to injury since it's a big easy to spot juicy target with no camo and no armor.

5. Soft stats. The gun isn't bad tbh but any sniping and support potential is let down by its poor aim time and soft stats for filling any sort of long range support role potential it might have. Also, it can't snap shot since the P/W is so bad it just always eats a shot while trying to peak and pull back, it's just too slow for that and generally most tanks it face will also smash it for much bigger alpha than it can trade with so... just a complete donkey really.


Edited by TungstenHitman, 13 September 2018 - 10:02 AM.


Simeon85 #7 Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:11 AM

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View Postfwhaatpiraat, on 13 September 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Long 88 with good penetration and trash rate of fire and dpm. Nice gun.

 

Yeh no idea why they needed to nerf the DPM when they went from the L/71 to the L/100, it barely has anymore DPM than the IS3, even though the IS3 has 390 alpha and armour. 

 

Buff the DPM to like 2.3k - 2.4k base and give it a decent engine so it at least has like 17-18 hp/ton and then it'll be pretty decent I reckon. 



FatigueGalaxy #8 Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:12 AM

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View Postares354, on 13 September 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:



But you have worse trash then Panther II on tier 8; Indien Panzer, STA 1, TVP VTU, T34-2 

 

Indien Panzer at least has mobility (it's smaller too). STA-1 is just a better Pershing (sacrifices armour for a way better gun), TVP VTU is faster and has much better DPM with 8.8 cm or alpha with 10.5 cm and T-34-2 is small, faster, has good camo and better turret. All of those are better than Panther II because of better mobility alone - slow tier 8 medium tank doesn't belong in tier 10 battles.

 

Long 8.8 cm wasn't the buff Panther II needed. Being slower than most heaviums is the real issue.



Simeon85 #9 Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:14 AM

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It also could be worse, it could be the Panther 88.........

leggasiini #10 Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:35 AM

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Yea, I've been playing it lately and I agree that it's absolutely horrendous. Tier 8 mediums in general are quite bad and the Panther 2 is scraping the bottom of the barrel among them. Only the T-34-2, TVP VTU and Panther 88 are on it's level or worse, really.

 

Even with L/100 88 it's awful. No armor, huge, sluggish and poor DPM. It has good pen, velocity and accuracy but it feels less accurate than it should be and it's still a gun with poor alpha AND poor DPM on awful platform, so...

 

And to make it better, you need 170k XP to the E 50...amazing.

 

One of the crappiest things I've been experienced lately. Only the 40TP is worse but this thing honestly isn't that much better tier-for-tier...



CircleOfSorrow #11 Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:55 AM

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I finished the grind to the E50 the other day.  It was a hard choice when they introduced the long 88, because I just wanted to be done with this Tuesday, but realised I would want the gun on the E50 anyway.  Now that the Panther II is elites, I haven't bought the E50 and it's going to take me a while to get over the experience.

fwhaatpiraat #12 Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:56 AM

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View PostSimeon85, on 13 September 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

 

Yeh no idea why they needed to nerf the DPM when they went from the L/71 to the L/100, it barely has anymore DPM than the IS3, even though the IS3 has 390 alpha and armour. 

 

Buff the DPM to like 2.3k - 2.4k base and give it a decent engine so it at least has like 17-18 hp/ton and then it'll be pretty decent I reckon. 

I actually switched back to the other gun.  Either way, it's bad. 



Simeon85 #13 Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:59 AM

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I am using the long 88 on the E50 these days for the memes and it's hilarious that the same gun on the tier 9 takes you from 1.87k DPM to over 3k DPM, I doubt there is a bigger step up in DPM going up one tier, in the game. And the E50 is the way better platform tier for tier. 

Edited by Simeon85, 13 September 2018 - 11:00 AM.


ares354 #14 Posted 13 September 2018 - 11:34 AM

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View PostFatigueGalaxy, on 13 September 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

 

Indien Panzer at least has mobility (it's smaller too). STA-1 is just a better Pershing (sacrifices armour for a way better gun), TVP VTU is faster and has much better DPM with 8.8 cm or alpha with 10.5 cm and T-34-2 is small, faster, has good camo and better turret. All of those are better than Panther II because of better mobility alone - slow tier 8 medium tank doesn't belong in tier 10 battles.

 

Long 8.8 cm wasn't the buff Panther II needed. Being slower than most heaviums is the real issue.

 

And IP get worse gun and armor that mean nothing like on Pather II. And Gun on PII is still better, both are trash. Pershing is better then STA 1, no doubt about it. TVp VTU have trash guns, its huge. PII gun at least have pen, and acc. TVP lack both. T32-2 is by far worst tier 8 MT in game. 100 mm gun have soft stats of SHT, 122 is like derp gun. That camo and "strong" turret mean crapreally. You cant use camo if you have to fight under 100 meters with both those guns. 

ramram70 #15 Posted 13 September 2018 - 11:52 AM

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So I guess I can forget moving from Panther to Panther II just because I feel Panther is so crappy with that ridicilous alpha. I've researched Panther II years ago but never bought it.

Search_Warrant #16 Posted 13 September 2018 - 11:54 AM

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Panther hull is the main reason.... its massive, paper and boxy. you cant hide and it has terrible camo value because of it. if it had any other hull it might have been decent. the hulls so tall it also cripples gundep when cresting hills.

Evilier_than_Skeletor #17 Posted 13 September 2018 - 12:15 PM

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Can it be any worse than Mutz? Might have to buy it back to find out.

Catiga282 #18 Posted 13 September 2018 - 12:24 PM

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View Postramram70, on 13 September 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

So I guess I can forget moving from Panther to Panther II just because I feel Panther is so crappy with that ridicilous alpha. I've researched Panther II years ago but never bought it.

 

Oh yeah. The Panther with his 135 alfa is just tickling the enemy. Hell even KV-85 is not afraid to go toe to toe as he know he that he will bring me down to less than 50% of my HP. The VK 30.02 (M) was a beast compared to the Panther. As you go up the tech  tree, the tanks just become so out dated and more and more sluggish
11:31 Added after 7 minutes
I get the P/W ratio, the size, poor armor and massive size, but the guns just miss or fail to penetrate sure pen shots. The sides of many tanks will straight eat the 88mm shell at tier 8, no matter that i have twice the needed pen. The gun will miss 100% hit shots and eat the dirt. Shot many ferdinand lowe plates ( the lower lower plate with 80mm of armour) and the bloody thing just straight bounced. And do't get me started on the sides of the french and Czech tanks, like how the hell can the side of a Skoda 50T bounce 2 dead-nuts on shot ?!

But i get it now. I will suffer trough the grind to get the long [edited]88mm, and the free xp to E50. No way i am sitting in that boat for 150K xp more.

Robbie_T #19 Posted 13 September 2018 - 01:03 PM

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I like the panter 2

 



XxKuzkina_MatxX #20 Posted 13 September 2018 - 01:12 PM

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View PostRobbie_T, on 13 September 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

I like the panter 2

 

 

She doesn't like you back! :bajan:




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