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Skillbased Stronghold Matchmaking

SH Stronghold SkillMM MM Advance

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Keyhand #1 Posted 12 November 2018 - 02:05 PM

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Hey Guys!

 

In february of 2017, WG implemented a new matchmaking system for the stronghold mode, one that is supposed to match fairly equal enemies against each other.

Now this may sound like a worthwhile endeavour, right? Matching opponents of roughly equal skill sounds fair at first glance after all.

However, I and many other players have noticed a lot of irritating and stressful changes taking place within this supposedly "fair" new matchmaking, leading us to play far less Stronghold than before the changes.

Following this brief introduction, I will list the negative changes that SkillMM has brought us as the playerbase and explain thoroughly why it should not stay the way it is.

 

1. Queue Times

 

When you start up the game, your first and foremost goal is to play of course. A matchmaker trying to find teams of roughly equal skill will naturally take longer to find those opponents in an environment with a finite amount of teams.

This leads to instances of extreme queue time for many players and frustration when you have Clanboosters running.

Example:

As you can see here, we spent over 12 minutes in the queue before we decided to halt it and go seperate ways since waiting longer for a game than the game would take at maximum certainly is not what one would consider to be very entertaining at all (and yes, there were other teams "playing" at the time)

 

 

2.  The pressure to pick good tanks

 

Some of you might remember - Strongholds did not always consist of teams picking Type 64s, T34-85Ms, Defenders, Patriots, Progettos, Skorpion Gs, WZ 5As, SuperConqs, 907s and other Metatanks.

It used to be a fun experience in which you would be able to play with almost any setup in a chilled atmosphere if you chose to do so.

I fondly remember HE-only setups with T49s and O-HO's as well as nationsetups with only autoloaders for the french for example.

Nowadays, stuff like that is simply not possible any more. Sure you can pick tanks like that, but you will get instarekt by an enemy team with roughly your skill able to pwn you with their serious setup which pretty quickly makes you not do that any more.

 

 

3. The pressure to play serious

 

This is another aspect of the aforementioned argument.

In an environment matching you with opponents of equal skill and the goal to win, naturally you have to play well to achieve victory.

This leaves little to no room for the stuff that you meet up with your buddies on the internet for - the fun.

I remember some evenings which are amongst the most fun I ever experienced in this game - playing Strongholds until 4 or 5 in the morning slowly sipping away at whatever one chose to drink - bam - gone.

When you have to try your very best in every game to overcome the opposing team, the relaxed shenanigans very quickly die off and a concentrated and oftentimes toxic atmosphere takes its place.

Now I the way I understand this, Wargaming created Clans and all related teambased battlemodes for Player retention since you will be less likely to leave the game when you have buddies online that you wanna hear and talk to and experience fun stuff with together. When all of this happens in a very tense environment every evening, people will soon stop appreciating the company of each other and stop playing or move on to other games which offer a different atmosphere - at least that is my experience.

 

 

4. The predetermined Winrate for most Clans in the long run is unfair

 

In an environment where the matchmaker tries to match you up against teams of equal skill, naturally, most clans will have a predetermined winrate of slightly below 50% due to the draws inevitably happening.

This means, that no matter how good the players you recruit are or how much you train to get better or how well you play together, the matchmaker will always try to find a team matching your current level.

You just improved your gameplay? Here, have stronger opponents as a "reward" and win just as much as before - thus also not being rewarded with more credits and combat XP as you would be in random battles.

 

 

5. The repetitive nature of enemies

 

In an environment of limited opponents with roughly your Skill Level, you tend to naturally meet the same enemies more often.

Not only does this repetitiveness of getting matched against the same enemies again and again become very boring after a while, it also is a source of great frustration when you have already encountered certain camping tactics in advances before and know exactly what will happen should you reach a certain map.

To emphasize this point, I will now list the enemies that my current clan has met in advances in the timeframe of 18th of october till 3rd of november - after this, activity went down due to supercup etc.

CSA, GX, NOMI, QSF (Pog) , GX, CSA, NOMI, NERVA, ANUBI, CSA, FEST, NOMI, GX, CSA, FEST, NOMI, FEST, 5TAR5, CSA

This means that out of the last 20 advances discarding 4 Clans we only met once, there was a choice of 4 (!) opponents to meet.

Very repetitive and not very engaging after a while.

 

 

 

All of the abovementioned points have lead to a noticeable decrease in stronghold activity for all tiers, except Tier X where the advances mode basically killed off the Tier 10 skirmishes by itself.

Also, Clans which focused on playing Strongholds in a relaxed manner have all but died out which is - from my point of view - a very sad thing.

 

I would like you guys to take a few seconds (was gonna write minutes but this is the internet, lol) and think about how you have experienced the changes to the Stronghold mode and leave feedback about my thoughts.

Should you have more points to add or even be able to correct me on some of my assumptions I will gladly revise my post and edit it where needed.

 

Let's try to bring Strongholds back to the chillaxed fun they used to be!

 

Cheers and thanks for reading, Keyhand :izmena:

 

 

Edits:

 

Props to Binma for this one:

The Skill MM is also bad for clans which have a huge variety in their playerskill. As Clans tend to be more than just the 7-15 players needed for a battle, you can also have different players. So a hypothetical team of the best players of a clan playing one day will set the ceiling higher for a team of the worst players the following day. Which therefore does not encourage the worse players to play. I hope I do not need to explain in how many ways this is bad for clans and players, as it decimates the potential playerbase and maybe excludes some nice guys from playing skirmishes in your clan.

It's also bad for new FCs trying to train for the same reasons, plus that it is hard for them to see progress.


Edited by Keyhand, 12 November 2018 - 03:47 PM.


Kurat666 #2 Posted 12 November 2018 - 02:16 PM

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Agree! SH is too "tryhard" now. As they effed up platooning with current MM, there is no relaxed and fun way for a clan to spend their time. It killed it for me anyway.

I wonder is the situation really better in the lower end of the foodchain? But even the "noobies" need to tryhard now, or the bots will kick their bottoms too when they chose the troll setup...



Domstadtkerl #3 Posted 12 November 2018 - 02:27 PM

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Send this to certain WG employees. This forum is for entertainment purposes only and no WG employee that could change any game mechanic will ever read here.

BlablaPaige #4 Posted 12 November 2018 - 02:29 PM

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We closed NOOT v1 and v2 beacause the sh as become garbage, brind back the real sh !

 

Block Quote

 I wonder is the situation really better in the lower end of the foodchain? But even the "noobies" need to tryhard now, or the bots will kick their bottoms too when they chose the troll setup...

 

Since I'm bad actually and have no clan, I play with a lot of red/orange clan this past month (if they take me, sometimes it take me 30min to find a clan), most of the time its 1-2min of waiting time, there's some camp and wtf tactic (all beach on overlord) but its quite okay to play (except they are expert to throw won game, but since they lack of knowledge....)

The tank aren't that tryhard, projetto don't seem to know they can shot 3 shell in 4s, some defender and is3, but its not rare to find, panther, ferdindon, tiger 2, ISU, VK100 (thats aren't on first line most of the time), light tank that forgot they have a gun and a brake and still half of premium


Edited by BlablaPaige, 12 November 2018 - 03:26 PM.


thePhilX #5 Posted 12 November 2018 - 02:56 PM

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View PostDomstadtkerl, on 12 November 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

Send this to certain WG employees. This forum is for entertainment purposes only and no WG employee that could change any game mechanic will ever read here.

 

Hey Domstadtkerl :)

reading this thread :popcorn: and looking for some good solutions :justwait:

_Crusad3r_ #6 Posted 12 November 2018 - 02:56 PM

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Leechbaer_DaBademeister #7 Posted 12 November 2018 - 02:58 PM

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Thumbs up Key <3

FuII_Control #8 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:09 PM

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WG introduced this skill based sistem because bot clans were crying that they were getting rekt in skirmishes.

 

Tier 6: Haven`t played that in a while heard is OP premium spam and still u get the better strike on them you win.

Tier 8:

Clansfight  with 5 defenders and progettos  spamming gold at each other and win might be resulted in the team that gets the better airstrike.

Tier X:

Bullcrap! It should be 15v15 not 10v10.  Just yolo rush with 907`s and 268 v4`s and GG.

 

ADVANCE:

The  old atacking sistem had it`s flaws but it was ok in my opinion. 

The new "advance sistem" it is ok-ish but fighting the same number of clans it is boring because after a while you know each other tactics and result in draws like Keyhand said.

The advance sistem can stay in my point of view with the skill based thingy and the rank sistem but i should be more rewarding. My clan made it to top 10? Give me something for it at the end week-month (boxes-boosters just like Wargames but bigger because WarGames is not about good clans just who gets more teams to spam the battles)

 

 



matalaros #9 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:09 PM

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Very much true !! Bring back the old fun days:bajan:

Gevinda #10 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:20 PM

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Relaxed skirmish still exists (:

 



Dr_Oolen #11 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:23 PM

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WG did kill SH with those changes indeed. I used to love SH, i could see myself play SH only and never touch randoms again. After the changes SH simply isnt fun, it turned into tryhard [Edited].

 

No defender or progetto? Well, [edited]you, we wont allow you to play because then we wouldnt win against other tryhard setups..., and even with tryhard setup its still aids because everyone gets instatroggeld because you win 60% of the games only anyway. At which point you might as well play solo randoms in a t8 premium and you get more credits, same or better winrate, triple the XP and same amount of rage... Theres simply no point to play SH unless you want to farm boxes, but what use are those boxes outside of SH? Right, pretty much no use...

 

The funny thing is that while the truly terrible clans for which WG made these retarded changes might be enjoying maybe 5% higher winrates, so barely even notice any difference in enjoyment, all the good clans enjoy like 20-40% worse winrate than previously, while on top of that one cant even play for fun and tanks one wants to play.

 

There really is just one way to salvage SH imo... remove the MM and make it so that personal reserves work in SH. Then SH would once again be more worthwhile than randoms.



Danger__UXB #12 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:34 PM

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In randoms you can gauge how good you are as a single player by pitting yourself against 'ALL' players in this game..Both good and bad!!

 

 

In strongholds it should be the same if you want to prove yourself as a team....you need to play against the best,The good and the bad.

 

 

..Only then your wins mean something if you want to prove yourself as a team.

 

 

Agreed!!

 

 



imperiumgraecum #13 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:35 PM

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View PostFuII_Control, on 12 November 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

The advance sistem can stay in my point of view with the skill based thingy and the rank sistem but it should be MUCH more rewarding. My clan made it to top 10? Give me something for it at the end week-month.

 

View PostDr_Oolen, on 12 November 2018 - 04:23 PM, said:

remove the MM and make it so that personal reserves work in SH.

 

I highlighted the interesting ideas.

Meeting similarly skilled opponents isn't a bad concept per se, but WG need to work around the obvious and less obvious deadlocks, like the one Keyhand showed in his SS.

BlablaPaige #14 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:38 PM

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View PostDanger__UXB, on 12 November 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

In randoms you can gauge how good you are as a single player by pitting yourself against 'ALL' players in this game..Both good and bad!!

In strongholds it should be the same if you want to prove yourself as a team....you need to play against the best,The good and the bad.

..Only then your wins mean something if you want to prove yourself as a team.

Agreed!!

 

There is CW, TB and Advance for that, so no, sh is for fun and you don't have to tryhard against the clan you already see elsewhere

 

Block Quote

 

View PostDr_Oolen, on 12 November 2018 - 04:23 PM, said:

remove the MM and make it so that personal reserves work in SH.

 

The problem with that, its when people have their credit, they will stop sh to go in random for few day, I'm not sur its the best for the global sh activity



imperiumgraecum #15 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:41 PM

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View PostBlablaPaige, on 12 November 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

The problem with that, its when people have their credit, they will stop sh to go in random for few day, I'm not sur its the best for the global sh activity

 

Sh activity would certainly be better with those changes than it is now.

 

Plus, by "personal reserves", it means that people would be able to grind combat exp/crew exp/free exp, and I guess the reason WG made these non-stackable in SH was to prevent people from grinding bad tanks fast, thus increasing the chances of using free exp, thus using gold(mostly through shop purchases).


Edited by imperiumgraecum, 12 November 2018 - 03:45 PM.


binmaa10 #16 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:41 PM

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Well I posted something similar, some time ago. An I am pretty much on line with you. 

Just some points I want to add:

The Skill MM is also bad for clans which have a huge variety in their playerskill. As Clans tend to be more than just the 10 players needed for a battle, you can also have different players. So a hypothetical team of the 10 best players of a clan playing the one day, will set the ceiling higher for a team of the 10 worst the following day. Which therefore does not encourage the worse players to play. I hope I do not need to in how many ways this is bad for clans and players, as it decimates the potential playerbase and maybe excludes some nice guys from playing skirmishes in your clan.

It's also bad for new FCs trying to train for the same reasons, plus that it is hard for them to see progress.

 

As said above bringing back the old system would probably male me search a fun clan again. 

 

It would also solve the Problem of Advances and Skirmishes beeing to similar in a better way than making Skirmishes 10v10. As Skirmishes would be the relaxed/training mode and Advamces would be the mode were you can prove your skill.

 

Right now Skirmishes are just a bad mixture of competitive and casual elements, and therefore not good for both audiences!

 

And most important: Don't force an awesome night to end early anymore. Remove the time limitations! There is nothing more frustrating than having to stop playing while you are still having a ton of fun just because the system tells you to do.



HundeWurst #17 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:43 PM

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To be honest, the skillbased matchmaking could even have worked with a big IF.

 

If the rewards would have also scaled accordingly. Right now you actually get punished for being good. You have to tryhard every game as Keyhand pointed out already. Always serious business. And for what? The EXACT same rewards like anyone else.

 

Here have a clan with 65% average winrate solo (10 players of that calibre) and then there is that team of an average 45% winrate. They get the same rewards. Does it make sense? Maybe in vodka RASHA....



Synop_s #18 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:43 PM

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And you forgot to talk about the fact this skillbased MM is not even a real skillbased MM... This is not based on ELO but on average PR which is stupid. FAIME disbanded for that reason : we fought every days FAME/CSA/GX/MVPS because our players had good PR, but we had terrible WR and our elo was not even close to them. At what point this is a "fair skilled MM" ? If you have good players but no good FC you have to fight (and lose) against the same top clans every days... Our FC didn't has the time to improve because of this system.

 

So we definitly need to remove this biased skilled MM. And if you don't want to remove it, at least fix it and remove this average PR MM.



FuZzZzzz #19 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:44 PM

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View PostKeyhand, on 12 November 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

[Bunch of good ideas].

 

I sign to this. :great: Well also I think Keyhand you forgot about most important thing about stronghold. REMOVE AIRSTRIKES FROM SH 6&8!

BlablaPaige #20 Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:44 PM

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View Postimperiumgraecum, on 12 November 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

 

Sh activity would certainly be better than it is now.

 

Well yes obviously, we can't go really lower....





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