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Is World of Tanks Pay 2 Win ?

WOT Pay to WIN . P2W

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Isharial #161 Posted 22 February 2019 - 02:09 PM

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View Postjohncl, on 22 February 2019 - 01:53 PM, said:

You play a stock tiger 2 without gold ammo and consumables with a 75% crew ...I play my defender full god ammo premium consumables and 6 skilled crew , 

 

I will play while eating my dinner and scratching my nutz ...Lets see who win out of 10 games , By the end of this seasson i will have blisters on my B@!!s....and 10 win's

 

This game is 100% pay to be competitive thus increase  your chance of winning  or P2W

 

but your log doesn't even have a defender?

 

in all fairness a stock Tiger 2 is bad against T7 tanks, let alone other T8's be they premium or not.... that's not really an argument that its P2W...

 

a fully kitted out Tiger 2 with a player who knows it vs the defender would be a different matter. it honestly depends entirely on whether the Tiger penned every shot or not



pallie_the_artillerist #162 Posted 22 February 2019 - 02:23 PM

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Just look at quickybaby's f2p account vs. his premium account... It's like a 1000 WN8 difference.

Jauhesammutin #163 Posted 22 February 2019 - 02:23 PM

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View Postjulian509, on 22 February 2019 - 12:46 PM, said:

"Let me prove you wrong about premium tanks being OP by bringing out an OP premium tank".

You'd only be proving them right by doing this. If you really want to prove that the game is not P2W, grab 2 of the best players, put one in a tier 8 tech tree tank of their choosing and put the other in a tier 8 premium of their choosing and see who wins.

 

907 is a reward tank, not a premium tank. Your argument is invalid. So far there have been 0 chances to buy that tank with money so it's as good as any other non-premium tank. If it bothers you so much, I can use 430U.

 

That would only prove which tank is better. Choose any premium tank (tank which you can/could buy with real money from the shop) against any free tier X tank of the same class. People always forget that tier 8 is 2 tiers from the best variant while premium tanks will always be the same tier.

 

If you say the game is P2W then obviously you can't restrict free tanks, equipment, etc. from the comparison. 



Isharial #164 Posted 22 February 2019 - 02:33 PM

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View Postpallie_the_artillerist, on 22 February 2019 - 02:23 PM, said:

Just look at quickybaby's f2p account vs. his premium account... It's like a 1000 WN8 difference.

 

but is that change wanted by quicky to exaggerate the differences? did he get bad maps? bad teams? poor crew? bad tank choice? 

 

its not really a great experiment if im honest....

 

View PostJauhesammutin, on 22 February 2019 - 02:23 PM, said:

 

907 is a reward tank, not a premium tank. Your argument is invalid. So far there have been 0 chances to buy that tank with money so it's as good as any other non-premium tank. If it bothers you so much, I can use 430U.

 

That would only prove which tank is better. Choose any premium tank (tank which you can/could buy with real money from the shop) against any free tier X tank of the same class. People always forget that tier 8 is 2 tiers from the best variant while premium tanks will always be the same tier.

 

If you say the game is P2W then obviously you can't restrict free tanks, equipment, etc. from the comparison. 

 

the 907 is a broken tank is more what they were saying... + its only available for those that have lengthy experience in a clan or paid their way into one. it is a tank not everyone can get, so for that reason its an invalid choice.

same with other reward tanks of that nature. restrictions are, available to the public, not to a select few....

 

if you were to say a WZ 120G, Matilda BP, STA-2 etc.. etc.., bad and good players can buy those when on sale, and they can do equally good or bad in them. they aren't pay 2 win. 

 

 

not to mention your argument is pretty poor.. a T8 vs a TX tank is hardly a comparison either... 

 

 



Jauhesammutin #165 Posted 22 February 2019 - 02:54 PM

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View PostIsharial, on 22 February 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

the 907 is a broken tank is more what they were saying... + its only available for those that have lengthy experience in a clan or paid their way into one. it is a tank not everyone can get, so for that reason its an invalid choice.

same with other reward tanks of that nature. restrictions are, available to the public, not to a select few....

 

If you suggest that you can buy 907 by paying real money for somebody to play your CW's then you might as well say that all the tanks can be bought with real money. That tosses this whole discussion out of the window since everything can be bought with real money. 

 

Anybody can get 907. It's just harder than to grind a tier 10 tank, which is harder than to grind tier 6 tank. Where do you draw the line? My friend didn't get past tier 3. Are all tier 4+ tanks invalid because they are not available for my friend?

 

View PostIsharial, on 22 February 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

if you were to say a WZ 120G, Matilda BP, STA-2 etc.. etc.., bad and good players can buy those when on sale, and they can do equally good or bad in them. they aren't pay 2 win. 

 

 Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.

 

 

View PostIsharial, on 22 February 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

not to mention your argument is pretty poor.. a T8 vs a TX tank is hardly a comparison either... 

 

 

Well, if you are arguing that the game (not tier 8 vs tier 8) is P2W then why do you restrict free tanks? Like Eekeeboo said:

Have 2 new players. Give one a free Tiger 2 and let the other grind the tank from tier 1. See who is going to win: the one who "paid" or the one who didn't.

 



Isharial #166 Posted 22 February 2019 - 04:18 PM

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View PostJauhesammutin, on 22 February 2019 - 02:54 PM, said:

If you suggest that you can buy 907 by paying real money for somebody to play your CW's then you might as well say that all the tanks can be bought with real money. That tosses this whole discussion out of the window since everything can be bought with real money. 

 

Anybody can get 907. It's just harder than to grind a tier 10 tank, which is harder than to grind tier 6 tank. Where do you draw the line? My friend didn't get past tier 3. Are all tier 4+ tanks invalid because they are not available for my friend?

 

 Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.

 

 

 

Well, if you are arguing that the game (not tier 8 vs tier 8) is P2W then why do you restrict free tanks? Like Eekeeboo said:

Have 2 new players. Give one a free Tiger 2 and let the other grind the tank from tier 1. See who is going to win: the one who "paid" or the one who didn't.

 

more that people have been caught doing it before, I wouldn't say its entirely open to buy it (as it is against the rules to do so) 

 

not everyone can get one, not everyone belongs or will even be accepted by a clan who would be eligible to receive them. a T10 tank can be grinded by anyone, clan or not. a 907 cannot be. that is where you draw the line, the point when a player has to do more than simply log in every day.

 

your friend refused to play anything above T3, they were not completely unable. they could log in, play a few games solo, and they are there. they don't need a special clan for it. you do for a 907.

 

 

you don't understand what? that a buyable T8 from the tech tree is a better choice for your argument than a tank completely restricted by clan play?

 

 

the game is T8 vs T8, as a T8 do you actively engage the TX's in your match? no. you engage the things you can beat and those you can damage, not the ones that can roll over you. 

what are you talking about "restricting free tanks"? who is restricting them? 

 

if comparing a tech tree T8 to a premium T8 is restricting something I have no idea what kind of meds your on... comparing a tech tree T8 to a clan locked TX medium is not a viable comparison and never has or will be.

 

eekeeboo's comment compares 2 TECHTREE TIER 8 tanks. (caps so you can read it) just 1 side gets it from the off and the other plays through the tanks prior to it. the one who plays through the tiers to the Tiger 2 will be in a much better standing (map awareness, crew skills etc.. etc..) than the one who gets it immediately.

that said, that has no real bearing on how a TX medium is somehow comparable to a T8 stock heavy tank, or that your friend couldn't past T3.....


Edited by Isharial, 22 February 2019 - 04:18 PM.


Jauhesammutin #167 Posted 22 February 2019 - 04:49 PM

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View PostIsharial, on 22 February 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

more that people have been caught doing it before, I wouldn't say its entirely open to buy it (as it is against the rules to do so) 

 

not everyone can get one, not everyone belongs or will even be accepted by a clan who would be eligible to receive them. a T10 tank can be grinded by anyone, clan or not. a 907 cannot be. that is where you draw the line, the point when a player has to do more than simply log in every day.

 

your friend refused to play anything above T3, they were not completely unable. they could log in, play a few games solo, and they are there. they don't need a special clan for it. you do for a 907.

 

 

you don't understand what? that a buyable T8 from the tech tree is a better choice for your argument than a tank completely restricted by clan play?

 

 

the game is T8 vs T8, as a T8 do you actively engage the TX's in your match? no. you engage the things you can beat and those you can damage, not the ones that can roll over you. 

what are you talking about "restricting free tanks"? who is restricting them? 

 

if comparing a tech tree T8 to a premium T8 is restricting something I have no idea what kind of meds your on... comparing a tech tree T8 to a clan locked TX medium is not a viable comparison and never has or will be.

 

eekeeboo's comment compares 2 TECHTREE TIER 8 tanks. (caps so you can read it) just 1 side gets it from the off and the other plays through the tanks prior to it. the one who plays through the tiers to the Tiger 2 will be in a much better standing (map awareness, crew skills etc.. etc..) than the one who gets it immediately.

that said, that has no real bearing on how a TX medium is somehow comparable to a T8 stock heavy tank, or that your friend couldn't past T3.....

 

Well, if 907 is too grindable (still 100% free) then I'll just switch to 430U.

 

I didn't understand what you meant by that sentence but now I see that it was for that 907. ( I thought it was a separate comment)

 

Now you are talking about 1v1 fights and not the game being P2W. Of course a better tank is going to win a 1v1. In the case of Defender vs Tiger 2, Defender is going to win. But who cares? Tiger 2 is going to be E-100 and it's going to win against Defender. Defende can keep buying more tier 8 premiums but he's never going to win against an E-100. 

 

I'm not comparing TX to a tech tree T8. I'm comparing it to a premium tank. People who say this game is P2W can come and try to win against my FREE tank. Just because you can see T6 and T8 in your Defender doesn't mean the game is P2W. Just because a premium tank is better than some other tanks doesn't mean the game is P2W. Once they release a premium tank which is better than the free tanks then it will be P2W. So far they have released tanks which are better than their tech tree counterparts, except they don't lead to tier X while the tech tree ones lead.

 



Isharial #168 Posted 22 February 2019 - 05:09 PM

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View PostJauhesammutin, on 22 February 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

 

Well, if 907 is too grindable (still 100% free) then I'll just switch to 430U.

 

I didn't understand what you meant by that sentence but now I see that it was for that 907. ( I thought it was a separate comment)

 

Now you are talking about 1v1 fights and not the game being P2W. Of course a better tank is going to win a 1v1. In the case of Defender vs Tiger 2, Defender is going to win. But who cares? Tiger 2 is going to be E-100 and it's going to win against Defender. Defende can keep buying more tier 8 premiums but he's never going to win against an E-100. 

 

I'm not comparing TX to a tech tree T8. I'm comparing it to a premium tank. People who say this game is P2W can come and try to win against my FREE tank. Just because you can see T6 and T8 in your Defender doesn't mean the game is P2W. Just because a premium tank is better than some other tanks doesn't mean the game is P2W. Once they release a premium tank which is better than the free tanks then it will be P2W. So far they have released tanks which are better than their tech tree counterparts, except they don't lead to tier X while the tech tree ones lead.

 

 

where does the E100 come into it? that's what im struggling to get from your points here... a TX doesn't come into this.

 

a T8 vs T8 is just that. the 430u, the 907, now the E100? these don't have any bearing on whether a stock Tiger 2 is still a worthless pile of junk against even lower tiers.... 

 

a better tank has a better chance of winning perhaps, but its not a straight out win. a Tiger 2 will see the defender coming far before the Defender will see the Tiger, so in a longer range engagement, the Tiger has the upper hand. there is more to a fight than simply the tank....

you seem to think that the 2 tanks have the same role (they don't) and that said engagement will be on the defenders terms, (ie in a town with LFP covered). battles don't always happen like that, and a good Tiger 2 player will know that, and will play accordingly

 

the rest of it im not even sure why you wrote it... its still a TX? eekeeboo's comment was between 2 tech tree tanks 2 tiers lower, so where did the premium part come from? at the end of the day there are premiums that are flat out better than the tech tree variants, as well as premiums that are flat out worse. (ie, defender to IS-3, or 120G to 111G) 

there are P2W elements (pretty much every F2P game has them) but on the whole, the game is far from it. pay 2 advance sure, but pay 2 win it isn't. 

 

 



Blubba #169 Posted 22 February 2019 - 06:09 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 21 February 2019 - 05:19 PM, said:

 

  They do, but they don't need to and playing tier 1 isn't the best way to generate credits. Once again he can do it faster (Pay to progress) vs do it at all (pay to win).

 

 

No I don't have to say this, I just know what the definition of pay to win is and that WoT is not, otherwise the wallet warriors would be the unicums of the game.

 

 

 

Ok, I'll bite.

What is the definition of pay2win?

What the hell is pay2progress?

If I kill more/do more damage/stay hidden spotting for longer, don't I win more?

I know I'll progress more but isn't that the same thing?

I win more XP/credits surely or is that just a fallacy?

Am I not rewarded more for spotting lots, surviving more, bouncing more, doing more damage (which normally means penetrations) and ergo, killing more?

My definition is if I can get any of the above through a payment mechanic, it's pay2win but I look forward to reading your definitive definition.

Furthermore, why do people insist in linking players to P2W?

The player has nothing to do with it.


 

 



eekeeboo #170 Posted 22 February 2019 - 07:02 PM

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View PostBlubba, on 22 February 2019 - 05:09 PM, said:

 

Ok, I'll bite.

What is the definition of pay2win?

What the hell is pay2progress?

If I kill more/do more damage/stay hidden spotting for longer, don't I win more?

I know I'll progress more but isn't that the same thing?

I win more XP/credits surely or is that just a fallacy?

Am I not rewarded more for spotting lots, surviving more, bouncing more, doing more damage (which normally means penetrations) and ergo, killing more?

My definition is if I can get any of the above through a payment mechanic, it's pay2win but I look forward to reading your definitive definition.

Furthermore, why do people insist in linking players to P2W?

The player has nothing to do with it.


 

 

 

 As the definition has become fluid, the standard still remains the same despite an incorrect application by people. At its core, pay 2 win means to gain an advantage not available for those not able to pay. Does tanks have this yes, but only by looking at a broad aspect. The reasoning is more complex because a free player can get all the content a paid player can, there's no paywall apart from premium content. Is some premium content strong/good? Yes, why and how do you sell mediocre and bad premium content? There's no purpose. You make a tank fun to play, someone buys it and plays it. 

 

But you play those for credits etc, you can get credits by playing mid tiers. Many people fall at the aspect that you can only generate profit at tier 10 with a premium account and using premium tanks. Well.... you're playing the game for free, you pay a cost in another way which is filling other tiers. It's up to you and it's a choice you make. 

 

 If pay to win was really a thing in WoT you would see more paying customers being the best players. Just because you earn things faster doesn't mean you win more, you can still earn and get to the same endpoint as before, but you don't have guaranteed advantage by paying. A premium tank owner is not guaranteed to win, they're not guaranteed to be better. 

 

And this is the fallacy, being able to pay to skip isn't pay to win if you still have the same winrate and chances as a free player, which you do. Skill trumps money in this game and always has. 

 



Trostani #171 Posted 22 February 2019 - 07:35 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 22 February 2019 - 06:02 PM, said:

 

 If pay to win was really a thing in WoT you would see more paying customers being the best players. Just because you earn things faster doesn't mean you win more, you can still earn and get to the same endpoint as before, but you don't have guaranteed advantage by paying. A premium tank owner is not guaranteed to win, they're not guaranteed to be better. 

 

And this is the fallacy, being able to pay to skip isn't pay to win if you still have the same winrate and chances as a free player, which you do. Skill trumps money in this game and always has. 

 

 

So find two equally skilled players with similar experience, give them same tank but one will have one perk crew, standard ammo and consumables (F2P), second will have 3-perk crew with premium ammo and premium consumables (due premium account and premium tanks owned). Then they will play 1000 battles, let's se who will have better WR.

Isharial #172 Posted 22 February 2019 - 07:59 PM

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View PostTrostani, on 22 February 2019 - 07:35 PM, said:

 

So find two equally skilled players with similar experience, give them same tank but one will have one perk crew, standard ammo and consumables (F2P), second will have 3-perk crew with premium ammo and premium consumables (due premium account and premium tanks owned). Then they will play 1000 battles, let's se who will have better WR.

 

why make the crews different? a free player can still have a decent crew... I know the reasoning behind the ammo and consumables because of the income but the crew I only see runs like tank xp, slower, but not impossible



enu_ #173 Posted 22 February 2019 - 08:02 PM

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f2p player can also use premium ammo and consumables. in those 1000 battles they can have the same WR. only difference how many battles each player need to play to grind credits for those 1000 battles

Edited by enu_, 22 February 2019 - 08:03 PM.


Blubba #174 Posted 22 February 2019 - 09:07 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 22 February 2019 - 06:02 PM, said:

 

 As the definition has become fluid, the standard still remains the same despite an incorrect application by people. At its core, pay 2 win means to gain an advantage not available for those not able to pay. Does tanks have this yes, but only by looking at a broad aspect. The reasoning is more complex because a free player can get all the content a paid player can, there's no paywall apart from premium content. Is some premium content strong/good? Yes, why and how do you sell mediocre and bad premium content? There's no purpose. You make a tank fun to play, someone buys it and plays it.

 

But you play those for credits etc, you can get credits by playing mid tiers. Many people fall at the aspect that you can only generate profit at tier 10 with a premium account and using premium tanks. Well.... you're playing the game for free, you pay a cost in another way which is filling other tiers. It's up to you and it's a choice you make.

 

 If pay to win was really a thing in WoT you would see more paying customers being the best players. Just because you earn things faster doesn't mean you win more, you can still earn and get to the same endpoint as before, but you don't have guaranteed advantage by paying. A premium tank owner is not guaranteed to win, they're not guaranteed to be better.

 

And this is the fallacy, being able to pay to skip isn't pay to win if you still have the same winrate and chances as a free player, which you do. Skill trumps money in this game and always has.

 

 

Unfortunately, I am old and can't use the quote function properly so:

Block Quote

At its core, pay 2 win means to gain an advantage not available for those not able to pay.

 

You and I differ on opinion here. Able or willing is not important and pay2win means getting an advantage by paying for it - at it's core.

So I think on this, we will have to agree to differ.

Block Quote

The reasoning is more complex because a free player can get all the content a paid player can

 

Is getting content relevant in this?

I can get content by botting can't I?

Block Quote

why and how do you sell mediocre and bad premium content? There's no purpose. You make a tank fun to play, someone buys it and plays it.

 

Mediocre or bad content?

You need to play some older premium tanks methinks. They are still being sold I believe. Have a look in the premium shop.

Block Quote

If pay to win was really a thing in WoT you would see more paying customers being the best players

 

As for paying customers being best players.... very few believe that. There is no replacement for ability and to quote someone famous:-

"Skill trumps money in this game and always has."   eekeeboo 22/02/19

That said, it will improve said players results, as I believe has been shown by some streamers (hearsay on my part there). If I'm crap and F2P and I start paying, the improvement to my stats may not even qualify me for average. It just has to improve them.

Block Quote

Just because you earn things faster doesn't mean you win more

 

Can you demonstrate where it doesn't?

If I perform better I earn more. Performance is key. There's a plethora of stats which dictate what you earn per bout. Win rate is just a part of that equation.

Block Quote

A premium tank owner is not guaranteed to win, they're not guaranteed to be better.

 

Guarantees?

This isn't about guarantees. This is about improving your results so does anyone have the curves for the Defender?

To be fair, I don't so again, hearsay on my part. Furthermore, I refer you to your second sentence:-

"At its core, pay 2 win means to gain an advantage not available for those not able to pay"

At no point did I mention 'guaranteed win' and nor did you... at the start.

Block Quote

And this is the fallacy, being able to pay to skip isn't pay to win if you still have the same winrate and chances as a free player

 

Absolutely but do you?

Do you have the same chances?

I'd suggest that in fact, that is the fallacy. That they don't have the same win rate and chances as a free to play player. Yes, you can save up and earn credits at lower tiers... but what is the p2w player doing at those lower tiers while our hero is earning his f2p credits and what does this do to the f2p players chances and winrate, compared to the p2w players?

Again, apologies for my inability to use your forum correctly.


 


 


 

 



Jauhesammutin #175 Posted 22 February 2019 - 11:43 PM

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View PostIsharial, on 22 February 2019 - 04:09 PM, said:

 

where does the E100 come into it? that's what im struggling to get from your points here... a TX doesn't come into this.

 

a T8 vs T8 is just that. the 430u, the 907, now the E100? these don't have any bearing on whether a stock Tiger 2 is still a worthless pile of junk against even lower tiers.... 

 

a better tank has a better chance of winning perhaps, but its not a straight out win. a Tiger 2 will see the defender coming far before the Defender will see the Tiger, so in a longer range engagement, the Tiger has the upper hand. there is more to a fight than simply the tank....

you seem to think that the 2 tanks have the same role (they don't) and that said engagement will be on the defenders terms, (ie in a town with LFP covered). battles don't always happen like that, and a good Tiger 2 player will know that, and will play accordingly

 

the rest of it im not even sure why you wrote it... its still a TX? eekeeboo's comment was between 2 tech tree tanks 2 tiers lower, so where did the premium part come from? at the end of the day there are premiums that are flat out better than the tech tree variants, as well as premiums that are flat out worse. (ie, defender to IS-3, or 120G to 111G) 

there are P2W elements (pretty much every F2P game has them) but on the whole, the game is far from it. pay 2 advance sure, but pay 2 win it isn't. 

 

 

That was my whole point..

 

When you buy a tier 8 prem you are going to stick with it. When you buy a Tiger 2 you are just buying it so you can get E-75/E-100. 



LordMuffin #176 Posted 23 February 2019 - 08:43 AM

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View PostJauhesammutin, on 22 February 2019 - 02:23 PM, said:

 

907 is a reward tank, not a premium tank. Your argument is invalid. So far there have been 0 chances to buy that tank with money so it's as good as any other non-premium tank. If it bothers you so much, I can use 430U.

 

That would only prove which tank is better. Choose any premium tank (tank which you can/could buy with real money from the shop) against any free tier X tank of the same class. People always forget that tier 8 is 2 tiers from the best variant while premium tanks will always be the same tier.

 

If you say the game is P2W then obviously you can't restrict free tanks, equipment, etc. from the comparison. 

Not an argument though.



LordMuffin #177 Posted 23 February 2019 - 08:57 AM

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View PostIsharial, on 22 February 2019 - 02:33 PM, said:

 

but is that change wanted by quicky to exaggerate the differences? did he get bad maps? bad teams? poor crew? bad tank choice? 

 

its not really a great experiment if im honest....

 

 

the 907 is a broken tank is more what they were saying... + its only available for those that have lengthy experience in a clan or paid their way into one. it is a tank not everyone can get, so for that reason its an invalid choice.

same with other reward tanks of that nature. restrictions are, available to the public, not to a select few....

 

if you were to say a WZ 120G, Matilda BP, STA-2 etc.. etc.., bad and good players can buy those when on sale, and they can do equally good or bad in them. they aren't pay 2 win. 

 

 

not to mention your argument is pretty poor.. a T8 vs a TX tank is hardly a comparison either... 

 

 

Bad maps even out after at most 2k battles.

Bad teams even out after 1k battles or less.

Poor crew is part of what he is testing.

Bad tank choice, it is not like he plays meta tanks on his main account anyway.

 

Shishx free to play account. Both of his accounts have fairly similar recent wn8, WR is ~3.5% apart.

 

For QB, the recent wn8 differ with almost 1k, and recent WR with 4%

 

So for worse players, (I consider shishx better then qb) the paying effect might be more impactful on the result compared to better players.



LordMuffin #178 Posted 23 February 2019 - 09:24 AM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 22 February 2019 - 07:02 PM, said:

 

 As the definition has become fluid, the standard still remains the same despite an incorrect application by people. At its core, pay 2 win means to gain an advantage not available for those not able to pay. Does tanks have this yes, but only by looking at a broad aspect. The reasoning is more complex because a free player can get all the content a paid player can, there's no paywall apart from premium content. Is some premium content strong/good? Yes, why and how do you sell mediocre and bad premium content? There's no purpose. You make a tank fun to play, someone buys it and plays it. 

 

But you play those for credits etc, you can get credits by playing mid tiers. Many people fall at the aspect that you can only generate profit at tier 10 with a premium account and using premium tanks. Well.... you're playing the game for free, you pay a cost in another way which is filling other tiers. It's up to you and it's a choice you make. 

 

 If pay to win was really a thing in WoT you would see more paying customers being the best players. Just because you earn things faster doesn't mean you win more, you can still earn and get to the same endpoint as before, but you don't have guaranteed advantage by paying. A premium tank owner is not guaranteed to win, they're not guaranteed to be better. 

 

And this is the fallacy, being able to pay to skip isn't pay to win if you still have the same winrate and chances as a free player, which you do. Skill trumps money in this game and always has. 

 

It is undeniable that WoT have p2w content (Defender, Pz II J etc). These tanks do give players more wins then if they had played an average tech tree tank of same tier.

So they fit the concept very well.

An item behind a paywall that gives the player an advantage in the game.

 

Almost every player at the top of WR and wn8 and PR charts uses premium account and have premium tanks (ratings commonly used to evaluate skill). Just look at these players streams.

But this is not an argument for or against p2w.

08:29 Added after 5 minutes

View Postenu_, on 22 February 2019 - 08:02 PM, said:

f2p player can also use premium ammo and consumables. in those 1000 battles they can have the same WR. only difference how many battles each player need to play to grind credits for those 1000 battles

Just make both players start with 200k credits and then same tanks from T5-T10.

One have premium tanks like Defender/Skorpion G/Lorr 40t etc and premium account.

They also got similar crews for 3 different tanks.

 

Then they play 1k games and we can see who got the most wins. And then we can check if the difference is large enough to be considered or not via statistical means.

 

Maybe 1k games at tiers of their on choice, or we force them to play at least 100 games at T5, T6, T7. T8, T9 and T10.


Edited by LordMuffin, 23 February 2019 - 09:33 AM.


MeNoobTank #179 Posted 23 February 2019 - 11:01 AM

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Looks like more people are still confused about pay2win. As I said before pay2win is some advantage that is behind a paywall. In other words, it is something that boost your win and you cannot get without paying real money.

 

The only pay2win aspect of this game are some of the OP premium tanks like Defender (notice that not all the premium tanks are pay2win because they are not better than free tanks). So except a few premium tanks this game is not pay2win. Premium consumables and premium time are not pay2win but pay2advance. Free player can still earn credits if he play smart (at lower tiers), free players can still use special ammo and food. They are not restricted from them.

 

I used to play a game named NeedForSpeed:World which was a nice free MMO racing game, I started playing it from the beta and everything was good. It has cars available for credits that you had to grind. It also had something named SpeedBoost (equivalent of Gold in WOT). SpeedBoost was used at first only to obtain XP/credits booster which was equivalent of premium time in wot. Also you could use a small amount of SP to rent cars so that you could try them first before you make the decision to permanently get with credits.

 

Then things changed, they started adding more cars and all of them where SP only (like premium cars), it was not a problem since all of them where either worse or equivalent to the cars you could grind. 

At some point in the game there was a bug to a free car (grindable car) that made it's nitrous be OP compared to the others, so the care become very popular. Devs noticed that and in short time apologized and nerfed the car.

 

After a while they introduced their first car that was way better in every aspect than the best car you could get as a free player, most important it also had that nitrous bug that made it super OP, but this time devs claimed it was not a bug but a feature, and it stayed as it was. From this point the game was going downhill and every car newly introduced was better than the one before it with small exception, and all of them where paid cars. The game did not last long and is now dead for good, because of pay2win and no communication between devs with the community.

 

Sorry for the long story, I just made this exemple so that WG understand that this is not the way to go. Adding broken/OP pay content only make them rich for a short time but in the long time the game is going downhill and die, eventually.

I liked WOT so much only because of my previous experiences with free2play games, that where mostly pay2win, and I was verry happy that WOT did not go for that path but after the introduction of OP premiums I am not sure anymore.


Edited by MeNoobTank, 23 February 2019 - 11:03 AM.


fwhaatpiraat #180 Posted 23 February 2019 - 11:32 AM

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View PostMeNoobTank, on 23 February 2019 - 11:01 AM, said:

Looks like more people are still confused about pay2win. As I said before pay2win is some advantage that is behind a paywall. In other words, it is something that boost your win and you cannot get without paying real money.

 

The only pay2win aspect of this game are some of the OP premium tanks like Defender (notice that not all the premium tanks are pay2win because they are not better than free tanks). So except a few premium tanks this game is not pay2win. Premium consumables and premium time are not pay2win but pay2advance. Free player can still earn credits if he play smart (at lower tiers), free players can still use special ammo and food. They are not restricted from them.

 

I used to play a game named NeedForSpeed:World which was a nice free MMO racing game, I started playing it from the beta and everything was good. It has cars available for credits that you had to grind. It also had something named SpeedBoost (equivalent of Gold in WOT). SpeedBoost was used at first only to obtain XP/credits booster which was equivalent of premium time in wot. Also you could use a small amount of SP to rent cars so that you could try them first before you make the decision to permanently get with credits.

 

Then things changed, they started adding more cars and all of them where SP only (like premium cars), it was not a problem since all of them where either worse or equivalent to the cars you could grind. 

At some point in the game there was a bug to a free car (grindable car) that made it's nitrous be OP compared to the others, so the care become very popular. Devs noticed that and in short time apologized and nerfed the car.

 

After a while they introduced their first car that was way better in every aspect than the best car you could get as a free player, most important it also had that nitrous bug that made it super OP, but this time devs claimed it was not a bug but a feature, and it stayed as it was. From this point the game was going downhill and every car newly introduced was better than the one before it with small exception, and all of them where paid cars. The game did not last long and is now dead for good, because of pay2win and no communication between devs with the community.

 

Sorry for the long story, I just made this exemple so that WG understand that this is not the way to go. Adding broken/OP pay content only make them rich for a short time but in the long time the game is going downhill and die, eventually.

I liked WOT so much only because of my previous experiences with free2play games, that where mostly pay2win, and I was verry happy that WOT did not go for that path but after the introduction of OP premiums I am not sure anymore.

Nice story, but how much credits does it cost if I load my Super Conqueror with apcr shells only, combined with food and premium med and repair kits. That gives a clear advantage over regular shells and consumables, don't they? Credits are not behind a pay wall, but running a premium account make such setups much more affordable, since you can earn a few 100% more credits. 

 

I played 5 years more or less without premium account. If I didn't buy any new tanks and just played the tanks I liked, I wouldn't lose credits but neither would I gain some. At the end of 2018 I bought some premium time. I played more tier x than ever, played a cw campaign, but also played Frontlines and during X-mas bonuses, so I wasn't purely grinding money. In the past few months I made more credits than ever: I saved ± 35m for tanks that I bought, bought several thousand of consumables and now I have 67m. A premium account makes it possible to shoot much more premium ammo and only use premium consumables. People barely want to pay for camouflage, emblems or a better looking garage, advantage in game is what counts. But progressing faster down the tech trees is a neat side effect.

 

PS, last nice nfs came out in 2005 imo.


Edited by fwhaatpiraat, 23 February 2019 - 11:33 AM.





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