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Making Arty Better For Everyone (Proposal)

Arty artillery proposal suggestion new update idea spg gun self

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fighting_falcon93 #61 Posted 12 December 2018 - 12:00 AM

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View Postslitth, on 11 December 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

but it not good to let real life limit a game.

 

Why would it limit it? Real life are full of interesting designs, solutions, inventions. The first 2 questions should always be "what is it that I want?" and then "how does it work in reality?". If reality holds a solution that in some way punish the gameplay or fun factor, then can we start to make something up from our fantasy.

 

View Postslitth, on 11 December 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

Just think how much fuel consumption would limit some tanks if this was added to the game.

 

To be honest, fuel could actually be used as an ingame currency, for example, to prevent players from playing certain tanks too often. For example, if we would like to reduce the amount of super heavies, they could have a much higher fuel cost than other tanks. This would allow players to only have a few battles in them and then be forced to play "normal" tanks in order to compensate for the fuel loss. Just a simple example, but I think you get the general idea. The point is that realism should not be turned away from, it should be used to our advantage.

 

View Postslitth, on 11 December 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

Or how a solid barrel could mess with the game.

 

Actually, a solid barrel would be quite fun and interesting. Would be hilarious to see all these long barreled heavies clustering in a city with their solid gun barrels. But I think it would unfortunately also be quite prone to bugs.

 

View Postslitth, on 11 December 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

On the other hand a more cartoon look would kill the game

 

Not only a cartoon look, but also cartoon mechanics, cartoon physics etc. Imagine if tanks could fly like helicopters, or if they started bouncing when falling down a cliff. For a game like WoT, that builds its whole core concept on either realism or history, it's unsurprisingly important to get a good realistic feeling in order to get the right atmosphere when playing the game.



NoobySkooby #62 Posted 12 December 2018 - 01:01 AM

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View PostPervyPastryPuffer, on 10 December 2018 - 09:13 PM, said:

This is not a tank simulator.

 

Suggest your idea to War Thunder, not WoT. Arty needs to be exterminated from WoT.

 

Totally agree.............. until I go play mine, lol

VeryRisky #63 Posted 12 December 2018 - 01:45 AM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 10 December 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

 

 

Firing Mode: This is the mode an SPG will spend most of its time in. It consists in setting the SPG up in the firing position, by making use of the pods / pistons / ploughs / walker legs SPGs have mounted on them, usually at the back (see pictures below). Engaging this mode "fixes" the SPG firmly in place, completly hindering any ability to move the vehicle or traverse the hull. SPGs in this mode won't be able to move an inch, but will have the firing characteristics and gun handling they have at the moment. Gun traverse is obviously INCREDIBLY limited by the standard gun arch. This will force SPG players to set up and pre-aim along one corridor / one position they want to fire at and wait, not allowing them to snapshot speeding light tanks from from away while traversing the hull and stuff like that. It will also prevent fast shots on freshly-spotted targets you want to snapshot in the other side of the map (relative to the side you're aiming at in the given moment) by requiring you to disengage firing mode, traverse the hull, engage firing mode again (if you want to actually have a chance to hit the target) and then, only then firing effectively. This will limit arties fighting for their cheap lives in TD mode, making their destruction, flanking and circling waaaay easier, not requiring you to risk your life if you're low HP (unless the bastard has barricaded himself in the end of an alleyway, case in which you are fu***d).

 

Relocating Mode: Just as it says in its name, the relocating mode allows your derpy a** SPG to relocate. It still allows for firing though, but all the gun handling you have in the firing mode is just a distant faded dream. Your aiming circle should be the size of the average casual arty players' brain (i.e. very big, bigger than an unaimed KV-2 reticle) (pun intended) and your aiming time should TRIPLE. The dispersion when moving is very VERY high, almost getting the aiming circle back to its huge size again by moving / elevating the gun just a slight bit. Firing in this mode will also physically push your vehicle back due to high recoil (see Newton's 2nd and 3rd law of motion) and damage the suspension. Firing again in this mode while having your suspension damaged will destroy it, taking off your track just as a shot would. When the vehicle gets pushed back by the recoil, any Camouflage Net or Binocular Telescope effect breaks and cuts down on your camouflage or viewrange. Firing in the relocating mode should also affect your camo rating more than firing in the, guess it, firing mode (good joke, don't ya think?). All in all, TD mode should be impossible in this mode.

 

 

 

Not a completely unreasonable proposal, but it does make wide gun arc SPGs (such as the M44 or M53/M55) massively better than narrow arc one (M12 or T92 HMC)  to the point that you would expect to do more damage in the lower tier arty.    I'm not sure how you'd rebalance the class as a whole with this change.



slitth #64 Posted 12 December 2018 - 06:58 AM

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View Postfighting_falcon93, on 11 December 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

 

Why would it limit it? Real life are full of interesting designs, solutions, inventions. The first 2 questions should always be "what is it that I want?" and then "how does it work in reality?". If reality holds a solution that in some way punish the gameplay or fun factor, then can we start to make something up from our fantasy.

 

To be honest, fuel could actually be used as an ingame currency, for example, to prevent players from playing certain tanks too often. For example, if we would like to reduce the amount of super heavies, they could have a much higher fuel cost than other tanks. This would allow players to only have a few battles in them and then be forced to play "normal" tanks in order to compensate for the fuel loss. Just a simple example, but I think you get the general idea. The point is that realism should not be turned away from, it should be used to our advantage.

 

 

Actually, a solid barrel would be quite fun and interesting. Would be hilarious to see all these long barreled heavies clustering in a city with their solid gun barrels. But I think it would unfortunately also be quite prone to bugs.

 

 

Not only a cartoon look, but also cartoon mechanics, cartoon physics etc. Imagine if tanks could fly like helicopters, or if they started bouncing when falling down a cliff. For a game like WoT, that builds its whole core concept on either realism or history, it's unsurprisingly important to get a good realistic feeling in order to get the right atmosphere when playing the game.

 

Having fuel in the game would add the risk of running out of fuel or adding a extra cost that hurt the active players more than the passive.

That would result in the more thirsty tank camping more, because they can not afford to move around to much.

Not to mention that only people that has a good income would be able to play super heavies.

By not having fuel in the game, by not having that part of reality impact the game, we avoid the problem that adding fuel would bring.

 

Same with solid barrels, that would prevent you from hitting tank that are to close.

Not to mention if there was a collision hitbox on a solid barrel, just imagine having you gun crippled in the start of the game because an ally drove in to your barrel.

 

And then there is the ability to see friend from foe to colour code. And the enemies HP.

A useful tool that does not have any real life equivalent, after all one of the big risk in real combat is friendly fire.

 

And that nice helpful self updating mini map, well that take away the tactical value of a team that can communicate and keep you informed about enemy movement.

 

All this are things that are removed or added because WG did not limit the game because of reality.

Instead they were merely inspired by reality.

Something we should also do when thinking of suggestions.

 



WoT_RU_Doing #65 Posted 12 December 2018 - 08:09 AM

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You missed one Slitth...IRL tank crews have all been trained in how to use their tanks to best effect, and work together to achieve their objective. In random battle mode WG chose to remove this by adding players.

Szatanshow #66 Posted 12 December 2018 - 08:32 AM

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If not remove them = witll fix all arty problems instantly

Remove Dmg from their shells make them debuff/buff/smoke suport only


Edited by Szatanshow, 12 December 2018 - 08:32 AM.


WoT_RU_Doing #67 Posted 12 December 2018 - 09:09 AM

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View PostSzatanshow, on 12 December 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

If not remove them = witll fix all arty problems instantly

Remove Dmg from their shells make them debuff/buff/smoke suport only

 

No, it won't at all. For many players, that would actually cause problems both directly and indirectly.

Meanwhile what is buff/debuff?



sabresteel #68 Posted 12 December 2018 - 09:34 AM

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Arty should be 0 or 15 per team. Nothing in the middle. Problem solved.

grizly1973 #69 Posted 12 December 2018 - 05:50 PM

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View PostVeryRisky, on 12 December 2018 - 02:45 AM, said:

Not a completely unreasonable proposal, but it does make wide gun arc SPGs (such as the M44 or M53/M55) massively better than narrow arc one (M12 or T92 HMC)  to the point that you would expect to do more damage in the lower tier arty.    I'm not sure how you'd rebalance the class as a whole with this change.

 

Well, if this suggestion ever gets seriously considered, fine balancing can be made to narrow-arc SPGs by improving some characteristics such as gun handling and reducing the mode switch times or reducing the gun stats of the wide-arc SPGs and making the mode transition take a little more time. I didn't include any numbers or proposed stats at all because they would be a waste of time and not helpful at all. To fine-tune such a new mechanic you actually need to see how a rough prototype plays out and then you can decide what it needs more or less of.

Signal11th #70 Posted 12 December 2018 - 05:55 PM

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Just remove it.

Version43 #71 Posted 12 December 2018 - 05:57 PM

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Fast moving tanks are already very hard to hit unless they drive into where you have been aiming anyway. So moving erratically and knowing when you get unspotted help a lot already. 

 

Basically the aim time of the arty simulates this already.



Gremlin182 #72 Posted 12 December 2018 - 06:06 PM

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View Postslitth, on 11 December 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

First I would like to point to The Big SPG Discussion Thread

 

Second, the biggest problem with artillery that I have seen in constructive feedback is that artillery is to far from the front-line.

Because you have to fight through a front to get to them, they are so well protected that they could be on a another map is some situations.

And if the maps do not allow for stealth manoeuvres that will not change.

 

The best thing for artillery would to get to closer to the front-line and put them in danger.

How to do that is another question

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but we would have been a lot better off forgetting artillery completely and having assault guns instead.

Assault guns as opposed to tank destroyers, vehicles with similar armour and performance as TDs but using Howitzers to fire HE shells in an arc over short to medium ranges.

They could do what SPGs do now but have to be a lot closer to the action.

 

Problem is you cannot easily remove all the SPGs from the game without being absolutely certain you are not making things worse.

Its a one way decision they cannot be removed and then say sorry we are bringing them back again.



VeryRisky #73 Posted 12 December 2018 - 06:40 PM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 12 December 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

 

Well, if this suggestion ever gets seriously considered, fine balancing can be made to narrow-arc SPGs by improving some characteristics such as gun handling and reducing the mode switch times or reducing the gun stats of the wide-arc SPGs and making the mode transition take a little more time. I didn't include any numbers or proposed stats at all because they would be a waste of time and not helpful at all. To fine-tune such a new mechanic you actually need to see how a rough prototype plays out and then you can decide what it needs more or less of.

 

Well you see if this is a rebalance then you want arty to be managing roughtly the same level of damage as currently.    If you make re-positioning slower with a siege mechanic, then they would have to compensate by increasing the RoF, or accuracy or damage.  It's not an unreasonable idea, but how may people are asking for the RoF to go up?

grizly1973 #74 Posted 12 December 2018 - 07:58 PM

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View PostVeryRisky, on 12 December 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

Well you see if this is a rebalance then you want arty to be managing roughtly the same level of damage as currently.    If you make re-positioning slower with a siege mechanic, then they would have to compensate by increasing the RoF, or accuracy or damage.  It's not an unreasonable idea, but how may people are asking for the RoF to go up?

Thinking more of it, I would actually suggest nerfing the RoF of wide-arc SPGs, because the point is to make them less efficient in the end. Having a wide arc is an advantage that should be compensated with reducing some other combat ability. This idea, however, is very controversial. Testing with real SPGs should be made and only then the perfect balance could be found. Fixing arty is not as simple as we'd like to.



humphrey10 #75 Posted 12 December 2018 - 08:45 PM

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Adding an reasonable counter for everyone to use against Arty would be amazing cause obviously WG wont remove it, i mean what would this game be if there weren't idiots rolling their heads around the keyboard in every match...

Something like the old tracer and actually counter-battery play which no arty players seem to do anymore, likely because of the aforementioned description. 

All in all, Arty is a complete detriment to gameplay and makes me so salty every game

(Limit arty to one per team- Its so ridiculous how often all the arty will just focus one player, happens to me all the f******** time and its soooooooo annoying)



dukecromwell #76 Posted 21 December 2018 - 04:52 PM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 10 December 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

So, we all know the pain arty currently is, don't we?

We are all fed up with it and want it to be re-rebalanced, but not many of us actually think what could be done with them besides pointlessly spamming "remove them all" on all subforums. Let's change that and try to initiate a productive conversation for once.

I present you my proposal for reworking artillery.

 

My proposal is pretty simple and straightforward. It makes use of a characteristic actual real SPGs have and makes them more complex by adding a whole new mechanic, increasing the skill-cap of the whole class. Sounds interesting? Stick with me as I'll explain everything down below.

 

The new mechanic I am talking about is a different kind of "siege mode" especially made for arties. Let's call it "firing mode" from now on.

 

It consists in allowing SPGs to use their stabilizing pods / pistons / ploughs or whatever other hull stabilising devices they may have. The mode would split arty gameplay in 2: firing and relocating. Engaging the mode with a key (why not "X") will make the transfer from one to another. The firing mode will enable arties to be efficient, while having limitations as to how reliable the SPG is against fast-moving targets (see below) and relocating mode allows for vehicle movement, with firepower immensely affected (negatively), thus making artillery less reliable in some situations (most situations actually).

 

Now, let's check what each mode is and what it does:

 

Firing Mode: This is the mode an SPG will spend most of its time in. It consists in setting the SPG up in the firing position, by making use of the pods / pistons / ploughs / walker legs SPGs have mounted on them, usually at the back (see pictures below). Engaging this mode "fixes" the SPG firmly in place, completly hindering any ability to move the vehicle or traverse the hull. SPGs in this mode won't be able to move an inch, but will have the firing characteristics and gun handling they have at the moment. Gun traverse is obviously INCREDIBLY limited by the standard gun arch. This will force SPG players to set up and pre-aim along one corridor / one position they want to fire at and wait, not allowing them to snapshot speeding light tanks from from away while traversing the hull and stuff like that. It will also prevent fast shots on freshly-spotted targets you want to snapshot in the other side of the map (relative to the side you're aiming at in the given moment) by requiring you to disengage firing mode, traverse the hull, engage firing mode again (if you want to actually have a chance to hit the target) and then, only then firing effectively. This will limit arties fighting for their cheap lives in TD mode, making their destruction, flanking and circling waaaay easier, not requiring you to risk your life if you're low HP (unless the bastard has barricaded himself in the end of an alleyway, case in which you are fu***d).

 

Relocating Mode: Just as it says in its name, the relocating mode allows your derpy a** SPG to relocate. It still allows for firing though, but all the gun handling you have in the firing mode is just a distant faded dream. Your aiming circle should be the size of the average casual arty players' brain (i.e. very big, bigger than an unaimed KV-2 reticle) (pun intended) and your aiming time should TRIPLE. The dispersion when moving is very VERY high, almost getting the aiming circle back to its huge size again by moving / elevating the gun just a slight bit. Firing in this mode will also physically push your vehicle back due to high recoil (see Newton's 2nd and 3rd law of motion) and damage the suspension. Firing again in this mode while having your suspension damaged will destroy it, taking off your track just as a shot would. When the vehicle gets pushed back by the recoil, any Camouflage Net or Binocular Telescope effect breaks and cuts down on your camouflage or viewrange. Firing in the relocating mode should also affect your camo rating more than firing in the, guess it, firing mode (good joke, don't ya think?). All in all, TD mode should be impossible in this mode.

 

Now it's pictures time:

 

A few SPGs in firing mode as I suggest it:

Tier 6 Frenchie

Notice the ploughs at the back and things holding it in place at the front?

Notice the ploughs at the back and things holding it in place at the front?

As you can see, the back of the vehicle is slightly lifted from the ground. This should negatively affect the range of some low-tier SPGs, encouraging them to relocate more often.

 

(Sry for not putting them in a spoiler box, my bad :amazed:)

 

Providing these mechanics would get implemented at some point and that a new arty branch wouldn't be like pouring acid on a wound, WG could add some interesting vehicles using a mix of different mechanics, take a look at this:

This is the 152mm SpGH DANA SPG, a potential Czechoslovakian tier X SPG. (Notice its stabilizer pods)

 

All in all, if these changes were to be applied, arties would become:

 

1 (most important). Unable to destroy moving targets effectively, as they would be too slow to engage and disengage the modes and firing from the relocating mode would be like gambling at the lottery and expecting to win 1st try. Arties will have to focus more on corridors (that's what they do nowadays anyways so don't be surprised) and on intuitive targeting of positions rather than being the bane of lights. This will keep them the way they should be: heavy hunters, TD hunters and possibly medium hunters to some extent (along with the usual counter-battery some like to do).

 

2. Less dangerous when approaching them (to blow them up real good ofcourse). While they are in firing mode you could outflank them even with a Maus or Type 5, while they are in relocating mode they will miss you even in a Maus or Type 5... Win-win situation, right? :P

 

3. Skill-Capped :trollface: (apparently). Well, it's actually logical. Players will need to learn how to be effective to remain so. They need to be more intuitive and calculated about their actions.

 

4. Less Stressful: after a day of hard work I'm really not interested in coming home to relax by playing WoT and constantly having sky ca***r arty on my mind while trying to 3-mark my ELC AMX (a very long-process, part of my daily life as of now).

 

5. More diverse (not the politically correct way, ofcourse). The more new mechanics the game has, the better (I'm obviously referring to high-tiers ofciurse, new players don't need to have their start even harder than it is now). Things like the French turetted arty could get the mode aswell, the firing mode consisting in reducing the turret rotation speed by the pretext of not making the bloom humongous. These mechanics can start from tier 4 or 5, while having the lower tier arties flat-out nerfed as they are, without the inclusion of any new game mechanics. Most arties from tier 4 on could get ploughs added to their 3D models even if theese are not present on the game models at the moment.

P.S.: The Pz. Sfl. IVb could have the awesome firing mode it was always intended to have:

 

The hull shouldn't be drivable on its own in-game, don't worry.

 

That's all for now, I hope I've made myself clear enough about how everythng should work and I'm eager to see your feedback and further suggestions (if any). :bajan:

 

NOTE: Special thanks to leggasiini, who is the source of inspiration for this article (somehow, don't ask - I can't answer). I'm especially looking forward to you comment and detailed (yes, DETAILED) opinion, you lovely duck (or goose :hiding:).

 

Thank you for reading. :medal:

 

You suggest another nerf and not making it better for "everyone"...

iuytr #77 Posted 22 December 2018 - 12:58 AM

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Not very well thought out at all.

 

It will make lower tier arty even harder than it already is, as it already has no stun, less accurate guns and small fast targets.

 

Edit: forgot to mention the limited range of lower tier arty guns which means you usually have to move further into the map.


Edited by iuytr, 22 December 2018 - 01:02 AM.


gpalsson #78 Posted 22 December 2018 - 01:45 AM

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View PostStinkyStonky, on 11 December 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

I've got an idea ....

 

A setting in Settings

 

[x] I don't like Arty.

 

Check it and you get more games without arty.

Don't check it and you get more games with arty.

 

And there would be a reward for not checking it (more XP / Credits for not checking it).

 

Those that don't like arty would have a better time (less arty games).

Those that aren't bothered would have a better time (more credits/XP).

Those that play arty would have a better time (more credits/xp and less people moaning at/tking them).

 

I'll await the responses from those than want arty removed but aren't willing to pay anything for it.

 

Well, it would be better than what we have now. I'm all for it.

grizly1973 #79 Posted 23 December 2018 - 08:16 PM

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View Postdukecromwell, on 21 December 2018 - 05:52 PM, said:

You suggest another nerf and not making it better for "everyone"...

Well, that's the whole point of it. To slightly nerf them indirectly in an inventive way that allows for a little more complex gameplay, due to SPGs lacking such a thing.

 

Playing a class that doesen't require tactical thinking shouldn't be too fun. I'd rather make them generally less appealing than remove them completly.



chessstud #80 Posted 23 December 2018 - 09:09 PM

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Let's just remove it as there's no skill element in it at all. I'm fed up with 44% siemkas children. blasting me from the corner on the map.





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