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2019 SPG "rebalance"


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_Old_Deus_Yenger_ #21 Posted 04 March 2019 - 01:24 PM

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View PostDarth_Clicker, on 28 February 2019 - 07:45 PM, said:

I agree with the notion of limiting arty to 1 or 2 per battle.  I have long taken that position.  I think it should be based on map size.  The small maps (800m) definitely don't need more than one arty.  But, I suspect that a lot of tank players would disagree because 3 artys on Himmelsdorf basically means a good chance at three easy kills.  But, I think that three artys are too many for any map except for Grand Battles.

 

  1. As I have stated before, arty doesn't need a nerf except in maybe stun radius.  I also think that arty needs to have AP ammo again.  Give it a slightly higher alpha damage and better pen than HE but it would have 0 stun.
  2. Give arty an incentive to play counter arty.  A real incentive.  Offer an xp bonus for damaging or destroying unspotted enemy arty.  Award bonds for destroying all enemy arty would also be an idea. 
  3. I also think another idea would be to give an xp bonus to the winning team when that team's arty survives the battle.  Maybe then tanks would keep in mind that they are the defense for arty.  Arty has relatively no defense mechanism against a competent tank driver.  No armor, terrible gun handling, slow reload, terrible mobility when compared to tanks.  Sure, arty can occasionally shotgun and destroy a tank in close proximity, but more often than not arty is sent to the garage relatively quickly.

Finally, an actual contribution to the discussion from a hardcore arty player.

 

I'm glad that you agree on the notion 3 x arty is too much, that combined with the stun mechanic is just depressing when they focus fire.

3 arties on himmilsdorf is depressing, it's less potential damage to be done~ As for grand battles, that needs lowering, I believe the limit is 4 on GB? That's madness, I don't play GB anymore, 3 arty focusing on you is bad enough, but 4? I know the map is larger and there are twice the number of players, but that doesn't stop them from focusing fire on single targets. And with the GB maps offering less arty cover, it's not fun.

That aside let's talk about 1 through 3.

 

If a nerf is not to be considered regarding everything but stun radius, then make the spall liners more effective against arty. A maus equipped with a super heavy spall-liner still takes heavy damage from 210mm + guns, and 20s + stun in some cases, despite sacrificing performance for this enhanced protection that seems mute all too often. Though admittedly it shrugs off anything 155mm and lower, the stun lingers on regardless. 

As for the AP rounds, so long as their properly balanced and don't have insane penetration and damage that puts the death stars AP to shame, it could work? But the thing with AP rounds is that arties accuracy was buffed since the days of object 261 AP spam, so the more consistent hits must be compensated with less effectiveness.

 

I agree with the second point. Make it an incentive also for arty players to relocate by  extending the time the tracers are visible, as well as perhaps making them slightly visible to direct fire too. Make it more engaging to play arty rather than when I used to play the bat chat arty and literally making a cup of tea in between reloading clips.   

 

Point 3 seems more viable with the addition of wheeled vehicles, but I would save that until arty is a more respected class of vehicle to play. The meta atm is, no one cares about arty, because we all hate arty.

 

And I attacked your statistics because you said playing arty requires skill, at the moment it doesn't. It used to be a bit more involving before the changes due to the longer reload and the worse accuracy as well as using the ammo types correctly, but with the stun, single ammo choice, increased RPM and accuracy, it is literally point and click. I only play arty in clan wars, (And enjoy arty in clan wars) because it's more tactical than randoms, where I need to move with the team and stunning multiple targets is more rewarding as my team actually has competent focus fire.

 



Darth_Clicker #22 Posted 04 March 2019 - 03:59 PM

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View Post_Old_Deus_Yenger_, on 04 March 2019 - 02:24 PM, said:

Finally, an actual contribution to the discussion from a hardcore arty player.

 

I'm glad that you agree on the notion 3 x arty is too much, that combined with the stun mechanic is just depressing when they focus fire.

3 arties on himmilsdorf is depressing, it's less potential damage to be done~ As for grand battles, that needs lowering, I believe the limit is 4 on GB? That's madness, I don't play GB anymore, 3 arty focusing on you is bad enough, but 4? I know the map is larger and there are twice the number of players, but that doesn't stop them from focusing fire on single targets. And with the GB maps offering less arty cover, it's not fun.

That aside let's talk about 1 through 3.

 

If a nerf is not to be considered regarding everything but stun radius, then make the spall liners more effective against arty. A maus equipped with a super heavy spall-liner still takes heavy damage from 210mm + guns, and 20s + stun in some cases, despite sacrificing performance for this enhanced protection that seems mute all too often. Though admittedly it shrugs off anything 155mm and lower, the stun lingers on regardless. 

As for the AP rounds, so long as their properly balanced and don't have insane penetration and damage that puts the death stars AP to shame, it could work? But the thing with AP rounds is that arties accuracy was buffed since the days of object 261 AP spam, so the more consistent hits must be compensated with less effectiveness.

 

I agree with the second point. Make it an incentive also for arty players to relocate by  extending the time the tracers are visible, as well as perhaps making them slightly visible to direct fire too. Make it more engaging to play arty rather than when I used to play the bat chat arty and literally making a cup of tea in between reloading clips.   

 

Point 3 seems more viable with the addition of wheeled vehicles, but I would save that until arty is a more respected class of vehicle to play. The meta atm is, no one cares about arty, because we all hate arty.

 

And I attacked your statistics because you said playing arty requires skill, at the moment it doesn't. It used to be a bit more involving before the changes due to the longer reload and the worse accuracy as well as using the ammo types correctly, but with the stun, single ammo choice, increased RPM and accuracy, it is literally point and click. I only play arty in clan wars, (And enjoy arty in clan wars) because it's more tactical than randoms, where I need to move with the team and stunning multiple targets is more rewarding as my team actually has competent focus fire.

 

 

Apparently you have not read many of my posts over the past years based on your opening sentence.  My thoughts about AP, stun time etc have been recorded in this forum several times.

 

 

The limit on Grand Battles is 5 per team.  If arty is focus firing on you then you need to ask yourself why?  Are you the tank that needs to be taken out in order to help the arty's team?  If yes, then they should be focused on you.  If you think that it is because of xvm, then I would say that isn't true.  I use xvm, but I learned a long time ago that focusing on a player simply because of their rating is normally a bad decision.  Focusing on the battle situation at hand is probably the biggest reason why I went from a 49% player to a 52% player.  I also see tanks on my team that complain in chat about an enemy arty focusing on them...and more times than not, the tank player is NOT one with an above average wn8.

 

Maybe the stun effect needs to be reduced.  I know that when I get stunned by counter arty, it really sucks.  And the little bit that I have played tanks (yeah I know....a microscopic amount), getting stunned is terrible.   So, instead of 50% reduction in aim/reload time for example there would only be a 25% or even 20% reduction.  So maybe a 50% reduction in the current stun effect...therefore speed would be reduced by 10% as opposed to 20%.

 

I seriously doubt that all players hate arty.  I know a lot of players that like arty.  Even among tank only players, I doubt that "all hate arty".  I still believe that most players don't like arty because they think that arty is the sole reason why they are a 49% win rate, 750 wn8 player.  If arty were removed from the game, they would certainly have a 59% win rate and 2600+ wn8....no doubt about it.  Therefore, they hate arty.

 

I still disagree with your idea that arty doesn't require skill.  If that were true, how do you explain the fact that you have better statistics in arty than I do?  Did WG arbitrarily attach some sort of RNG adjustment to your account to give you better results?  If arty required no skill then wouldn't all arty players have very similar win rates and wn8 ratings?  I understand that it is possible that you have played a lot of battles with in a platoon in which you and your mates really worked as a team and that would certainly tend to result in better numbers.  I on the other hand almost never play in a platoon but play solo randoms.



pekpek #23 Posted 24 March 2019 - 01:07 AM

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I personally agree, arty needs adjustments.

Removing whole class could be an option but then compensation for money AND xp would be must.

 

Reducing artys range to similiar range as lowtier british arty could also be solution but then similiar shell arc would also be needet. Then arty would have to be closer to enemies and easier to kill.



Suicide_Wolf #24 Posted 26 March 2019 - 11:56 AM

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Im disagree what are you saying at all . reduce arty shell range as british:P

I agree need reduce stun duration maybe by half. 

I disagree  splash radius dmg reduced, then be taken 3 arties aout of the game  such a  french,russian and german. they are the worst at the moment . those arties do not take to advances etc.

if they reduce  splash radius then need to increase  penetration for arties  to do more single dmg  and bring back  ap rounds. do not forget to adjust also mission for arties :arta:.

Arty players need to  have skill, taking good position, move around give support to tanks to take out hull down tanks etc. You think it is easy click  no  we need look map  need to decide what side need focus etc  predict tank current speed + shell velocity to hit them .

I think every HE round of any tank must have  stun effect also  from 1- 5 sec 


Edited by Suicide_Wolf, 26 March 2019 - 12:21 PM.


General_McMuschi #25 Posted 28 March 2019 - 10:23 AM

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Goddamnit it people, when are you going to stop complaining about arties? Most of the people who complain don't even play them, part of them who complain play them but are for whichever reason ashamed to admit they occasionally enjoy it, and as for people who enjoy playing arty - nobody cares about them or what they have to say. Why? Because your type of pixel tank is better and more honorable to play then mine? :sceptic:

 

After these upcoming nerfs, not much will change in WoT and people will still hate arty and complain about it, it will fix nothing - it will just make the game into a simple man's brawling close range shooter game.

 

In the last couple of years, WG has nerfed to uselessness all the vehicles that I had fun at. Now they are about to do it to the arties I enjoy playing. Why? Isn't game supposed to be fun?

 

I understand that people don't enjoy being shot at by arty but I consider a better solution to be to leave arty as it is but limit the number to 2 or 1 per team instead of 3. I think arty players would rather wait in queue to enter the battle for 2 minutes, than to just play a class that does nothing, no stun, no damage, no penetration, no view range, no HP, no anything.

 


Edited by General_McMuschi, 28 March 2019 - 06:08 PM.


mpf1959 #26 Posted 31 March 2019 - 06:45 PM

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To my mind wg are proposing an unbelievable complex answer to an easy problem, just reduce the number of spg in the game to 1 per side, and i will bet that then only the hardcore anti spg mitherers would keep moaning, an amount easy to ignore. Will the queue be like wow, 60 seconds as opposed to 5 to get a game? Anyway, if I want to play my spg's I'd be happy to wait a minute and get a single arty game, but even if I didn't, where else can one even play an spg? 

Edited by mpf1959, 31 March 2019 - 06:46 PM.


Darth_Clicker #27 Posted 01 April 2019 - 02:35 PM

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View Postmpf1959, on 31 March 2019 - 07:45 PM, said:

To my mind wg are proposing an unbelievable complex answer to an easy problem, just reduce the number of spg in the game to 1 per side, and i will bet that then only the hardcore anti spg mitherers would keep moaning, an amount easy to ignore. Will the queue be like wow, 60 seconds as opposed to 5 to get a game? Anyway, if I want to play my spg's I'd be happy to wait a minute and get a single arty game, but even if I didn't, where else can one even play an spg? 

 

I agree 100% with what you said.

Objec7 #28 Posted 01 April 2019 - 03:28 PM

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View PostDarth_Clicker, on 01 April 2019 - 02:35 PM, said:

 

I agree 100% with what you said.

 

Me too if op clickers like German and American ones gets nerfed :)

Pi_314159265358979 #29 Posted 01 April 2019 - 05:32 PM

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OK, anti-arty whiners, this is it. I give you, just for your mere enjoyment, 'The Ultimate Nerf'.

 

For all arties, these variables will be changed:

 

- The alpha damage will be decreased by a factor of ten.

- The stun will be removed. In fact, your crew will improve their performance for some time after being hit by arty.

- The penetration for all shells will be reduced to 1mm.

- The reload and aiming time will be increased by a factor of three.

- The splash radius will be reduced by a factor of ten.

- The dispersion will be increased by a factor of four.

- The shell cost will be multiplied by ten.

- The shell speed will increase by a factor of five. Now, arties will have to expose themselves to enemy fire if they want their shells to hit the target.

- The number of arties will be reduced to one per team per 100 battles.

 

Anti-arty whiners, quote this message and say again that this suggested nerf is far from enough. I DARE YOU. 


Edited by Pi_314159265358979, 01 April 2019 - 05:34 PM.


Objec7 #30 Posted 01 April 2019 - 05:36 PM

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Greetings from Skill4ltu! :) Here he shows how to play the hardest class, artillery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8VHU2Ob0QU



Orkbert #31 Posted 03 April 2019 - 07:53 PM

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View Postmpf1959, on 31 March 2019 - 06:45 PM, said:

To my mind wg are proposing an unbelievable complex answer to an easy problem, just reduce the number of spg in the game to 1 per side, and i will bet that then only the hardcore anti spg mitherers would keep moaning, an amount easy to ignore. Will the queue be like wow, 60 seconds as opposed to 5 to get a game? Anyway, if I want to play my spg's I'd be happy to wait a minute and get a single arty game, but even if I didn't, where else can one even play an spg? 

 

Indeed, Frontline did show that arty players can stomach quite some waiting queue (heck, occasionally I was one of them patiently going through a 3~4 minutes waiting queue)

 

Also I played the GW TigerP before the stun mechanics, when it had a 44 seconds reload (that's already with rammer). I wouldn't have done that if I weren't able to wait.

(and I had played WoWP before they introduced bots and those were some goddamn waiting queues against which choosing an SPG for Frontline is nothing at all)

 

Although admittedly they would have to tweak some of the personal missions a bit if the SPG hardcap were reduced to a single tank but given that they reworked all SPG missions with the advent of the stun function I daresay they should be able to pull that off as well (and note that with a hardcap of 2 the missions might not even need to be changed at all)



General_McMuschi #32 Posted 04 April 2019 - 06:22 AM

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View Postmpf1959, on 31 March 2019 - 06:45 PM, said:

To my mind wg are proposing an unbelievable complex answer to an easy problem, just reduce the number of spg in the game to 1 per side, and i will bet that then only the hardcore anti spg mitherers would keep moaning, an amount easy to ignore. Will the queue be like wow, 60 seconds as opposed to 5 to get a game? Anyway, if I want to play my spg's I'd be happy to wait a minute and get a single arty game, but even if I didn't, where else can one even play an spg? 

 

View PostDarth_Clicker, on 01 April 2019 - 02:35 PM, said:

 

I agree 100% with what you said.

 They aren't going to do this. I've read this article/interview yesterday and here's what they said:

Will you reduce the number of SPG per battle?

No, we won’t reduce the number of SPGs per battle. Statistically, 10% of battles are played without arty at all, around 30% have one SPG, another 30% with two SPGs, and another 30%– with three SPGs. Let’s say we limit SPGs to two per battle, then there will be zero battles with no arty, around 10% with one artillery and the rest with two artillery. It would be worse than what we have right now: an average of less than 2 artillery per battle.

We’re also looking closely at Ranked Battles and there is usually two artillery per battle there. The mode is slower and more fit for arty, so we’re fine with it. However, it led to changes in hit maps and battle “choreography.” If you look at how a Random and a Ranked battle unfolds on the very same maps, the difference is drastic.



Darth_Clicker #33 Posted 05 April 2019 - 06:33 PM

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View PostGeneral_McMuschi, on 04 April 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

 

 They aren't going to do this. I've read this article/interview yesterday and here's what they said:

Will you reduce the number of SPG per battle?

No, we won’t reduce the number of SPGs per battle. Statistically, 10% of battles are played without arty at all, around 30% have one SPG, another 30% with two SPGs, and another 30%– with three SPGs. Let’s say we limit SPGs to two per battle, then there will be zero battles with no arty, around 10% with one artillery and the rest with two artillery. It would be worse than what we have right now: an average of less than 2 artillery per battle.

We’re also looking closely at Ranked Battles and there is usually two artillery per battle there. The mode is slower and more fit for arty, so we’re fine with it. However, it led to changes in hit maps and battle “choreography.” If you look at how a Random and a Ranked battle unfolds on the very same maps, the difference is drastic.

 

I can understand their logic, but it assumes that the same number of players will continue to play arty in any given battle.  I think that the number will fall a bit, especially if wait times increase.  The other thing that they are ignoring is the complaints of 3 arty in a battle.  Eliminating that would stop some of the crying about arty, but there would still probably be just as many whiners due to 2 or even 1 arty per battle.  

 

I still think that 3 arty per battle in random, non Grand battles is too many.  Especially on small maps.  And I feel that they are too many for both tank players as well as arty players.  Maybe if the number were restricted to two per battle tiers 8-10 and left at 3 per battle 7 and below.  Or even one per battle tier X.

 

But once again...the number of whiners will stay constant in the game.  They just might whine about something other than arty....or whine about not having something to whine about.



mpf1959 #34 Posted 06 April 2019 - 11:14 AM

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Nice to see they take notice of player feedback! :confused:

VeryRisky #35 Posted 12 April 2019 - 11:49 AM

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Looking at the proposals I see two points standing out.

  1. The rebalance as far as I see will be a direct 'nerf' to SPG effectiveness and therefore XP and CR in battle.   Usually there is to be some compensating change.   What is that meant to be?
  2. Somewhere in there there was something that if you hit a tank that is stunned and your shell is smaller and has a shorter max stun value, it will not extend the stun ever.   This suggests a benefit to bigger guns so would imply that for SPG with two usable guns, you will be better off taking the larger calibre.   I'm thinking of the M40/M3 and the M53/M55.


Geno1isme #36 Posted 12 April 2019 - 12:47 PM

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View PostOrkbert, on 03 April 2019 - 08:53 PM, said:

Indeed, Frontline did show that arty players can stomach quite some waiting queue (heck, occasionally I was one of them patiently going through a 3~4 minutes waiting queue)

 

Frontline is a very different beast than regular random battles that can easily end within five minutes. Plus due to rank mechanics WG gives people more incentive to play arty there.

Edited by Geno1isme, 12 April 2019 - 12:48 PM.


AndrewGamer2005 #37 Posted 01 May 2019 - 12:11 PM

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The SPG rebalance is not good because the wg low the splash and the stun

Darth_Clicker #38 Posted 02 May 2019 - 05:13 PM

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So far (11 battles mostly tier 9-10) I haven't noticed anything negative.  One positive, in my opinion, is that I stun or damage friendly tanks less often.  But yes, I know, 11 battles is not many at all.  But, I do know that I have had a couple of shots so far that didn't damage or stun when they both would have before.

Muvopich #39 Posted 04 June 2019 - 09:30 AM

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Wargaming MUST reduced number of arty per battle, or nerf them more (but real nerf!!), 3 arty per battle is too much for normal playing game. Many people who left playing this game (because of bad MM) always mention a game of 3 artillery . Were is fun in this arty-party for other players??? 1-2 arty per battle should be enough.

 



Darth_Clicker #40 Posted 05 June 2019 - 05:06 AM

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View PostMuvopich, on 04 June 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

Wargaming MUST reduced number of arty per battle, or nerf them more (but real nerf!!), 3 arty per battle is too much for normal playing game. Many people who left playing this game (because of bad MM) always mention a game of 3 artillery . Were is fun in this arty-party for other players??? 1-2 arty per battle should be enough.

 

 

Usually it's a tank party with 12-15 tanks per battle.  I agree that 3 artys per battle is too many, but not because I want to make the game easier for the tanks....which is why some tank players want fewer artys per battle.  I want less arty because I want to make the game easier for me as an arty player.  If I am the only arty in the battle, then I get to enjoy bombing the little snowflake tanks all by myself.  And then, maybe I would get even more PMs after battle with lame little snowflake tank insults.  Some tank players are fragile and special like a little snowflake and their tears are the best.

 

But, most tank players are mature and understand that this is a GAME that they are PLAYING.  Some even give me props after battle because I helped my team to win the battle.

 

So...when you say "arty party" in chat, I normally respond with "24 tanks, tank party, nerf the tanks....too many tanks!!!"  It usually results in some LOLs in chat which shows me that their are some rational adults playing.






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